Question for rob_Jax

[GrahamW]

I was approached about 6 months ago by a company trying to sell me a magnetic fuel saving device. Our annual diesel bill is £130K.

Everything about it had scam written all over it particularly the way these devices are being marketed (ie franchise area's)and the description of how they are supposed to work is to good to be true. In my experience anything that sounds to good to be true usually is.

The problem I have got now is that I have just been talking to a guy who 12 months ago had these fitted to his fleet of coaches. He swares blind he is achieving 9% saving on fuel costs over a year. Is he just trying to justify his purchase or not is the question. As the resident expert in all things fuel related what is your opinion

 

[RogerL]

If they were any good, vehicle manufacturers would be falling over themselves to fit these as standard!

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Graham,

These type of devices (magnets that you tie wrap around a fuel pipe - or an airflow "spinner" that you fit in the air intake - or a fuel catalyst that you drop in the fuel tank) seem to crop up every so often, supported by a snappy scientific reference, but I'm always very sceptical. Why?

Magnetic Devices:

In case you had never noticed, drop a strong magnet into a cup of fuel, and unlike doing this with paper-clips - the magnet doesn't draw out a long string of fuel stuck to it.

Petroleum hydrocarbons are not magnetic, and are not affected by the size of magnetic field generated by a "home" magnet.

In the late 70's I completed a research degree that developed an early Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) instrument - you will have seen vastly developed versions of this used in hospitals as a CAT scanner - the NMR name was changed because it had the word "nuclear" in the title - nothing to do with atomic power but a name change is better than having to explain that to people.

Back to NMR - we were using a 2 Tonne industrial magnet, boosted by electromagent coils, focused down to a point 1 inch square - and a radio tuner - to flip the magnetic state of a few carbon (or hydrogen) atoms.

At room temperature, these atoms then flip back a milli-second later and emit a little "blip" of radio that we could use to make measurements of the samples.

So there is some truth in the "science" that backs up these magnetic devices - but you need enormous magnetic fields - thousands or millions of times greater than you can achieve with a "home" magnet - and the effects only last for a thousandth of a second.

Worse is the fact that the magnetic effect happens inside the atom, and doesn't affect the bulk properties of the fuel.

Now I haven't tried these devices because I believe it's extremely unlikely that they would work.

I'd rather spend the money on better (less sticky) synthetic engine oil or checking that the tyre pressures are correct.

Robert

 

[GrahamW]

Thanks for that Rob, I guess then the guy with the coaches has obviously "bought into " this proberbly because he has invested what is about 2k in magnets.

For interest I might do a controlled test on my Amazon to see if there is any substance to the claims.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Graham,

Good luck with the test - but it will be very hard to exactly match the drive (air temperature, humidity, road traffic, throttle positions, braking, etc) - and you will know when you have the device attached.

This physiological effect is why drug trials use "double blind" testing - so the patient doesn't know if they have the real drug and nor does the doctor administering the treatment.

If someone thinks something will happen, then they subconsciously influence the test - one way or the other.

Funnily enough I've haven't heard of any of the "fuel consumption devices" being tested by a respected test company like Riccardo Engineering. Using a computer controlled car driving an exactly reproducible route on a rolling road, you could quite easily discover the effects.

Robert

 

[GrahamW]

Rob

The main reason for choosing my own car for any test (assuming I go ahead) is that no matter how I drive the vehicle I can guarantee I will get 400 to 410 miles from a tank full solo.So with this benchmark I should be able to see a 9% move particularly if I do it over a 2 month period.

 

[rob_jax]

Graham - good idea - give it a go. Robert

 

[MONKEY1]

Graham,

I respect that this is a private conversation, but I've got a bit of history in this area, about five years ago I was approached by a company who sold a "miracle device" that could add about a 10%gain to your fuel consumption. The thing was they wouldn't give me any technical detail except that you plugged this device into a fuel line and it did its business.

Well as a fleet buyer I went straight to 15 colleagues (engineers, workshop mangers etc) all who were interested but couldn't be convinced that this sealed box was worth the expense. However I heard of one mini coach operator in Manchester who had fitted them and recorded 15 % fuel savings. When I asked the likes of MAN, Scania and Mercedes they all reckoned on some sort of physiological effect (as mentioned earlier)... "the boss is looking at fuel I better drive a bit better "

I have had some experience and success however with the remap of engines to more suit their application. That and driver education are usually the most successful.

Monkeys husband

 

[GrahamW]

Monkeys Husband

No such thing as a private conversation on an open forum so thanks for your input. I like all the people you spoke to am very sceptical about these things, the magnetic type device does come with an explanation of how it works (or is supposed to work) allegedly to do with the lining up of the molecules prior to injection/introduction into the combustion chamber. For CliveV it is even supposed to work on LPG.

Had I not spoken to the coach operator who had them fitted 12 months ago I would not even have looked at this any further but I must admit his claims (based on a 12 month test that his drivers know nothing about) is quite impressive. If his claims are correct I can save my Company nearly 12k per annum so I think I will probably try it for the sake of

 

[CliveV]

I have one of these magnet things strapped to the LPG line before it branches into two to go to the two carbs. I didn't pay for it - it was fitted to a car my son had as a run around and he took it off thinking (probably quite rightly in my view that the thing is a rip off.

I noticed absolutely NO difference in fuel consumption whatsoever. And I did check it out reasonably well as I tend to do similar journeys over a month. We checked the miles against consumption for one month with it fitted and then for a month without, then put it back on again.

Not a hapeth of difference. It is as someone said earlier - to make a difference you would need an electromagnetic field of such a size to alter the state of the fuel atoms or to "line them up" as one bit of blurb said AND GET THEM TO STAY LIKE THAT ALL THE WAY INTO THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER, that it would be the equivalent of a Neutron Pulse and would wipe out the cars ignition system anyway.

It is still on the car.

Why?

Being a magnet it is handy for placing nuts screws washers etc when servicing the car. Since I fitted it I haven't lost a "widget".

Only reason it is still there.

Magnetic dishes are available much cheaper from all good motor accessory stores.

 

[CliveV]

I have one of these magnet things strapped to the LPG line before it branches into two to go to the two carbs. I didn't pay for it - it was fitted to a car my son had as a run around and he took it off thinking (probably quite rightly in my view that the thing is a rip off.

I noticed absolutely NO difference in fuel consumption whatsoever. And I did check it out reasonably well as I tend to do similar journeys over a month. We checked the miles against consumption for one month with it fitted and then for a month without, then put it back on again.

Not a hapeth of difference. It is as someone said earlier - to make a difference you would need an electromagnetic field of such a size to alter the state of the fuel atoms or to "line them up" as one bit of blurb said AND GET THEM TO STAY LIKE THAT ALL THE WAY INTO THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER, that it would be the equivalent of a Neutron Pulse and would wipe out the cars ignition system anyway.

It is still on the car.

Why?

Being a magnet it is handy for placing nuts screws washers etc when servicing the car. Since I fitted it I haven't lost a "widget".

Only reason it is still there.

Magnetic dishes are available much cheaper from all good motor accessory stores.

Sorry Rob - it was you who mentioned the size of magnetic fiels requied - I should have looked.

 

[gary]

I have a friend who sold Scania Trucks for a living, one conversation I had with him was on fuel economy or lack of it on the big trucks. Not sure what the figures are now but then 9mpg was good and 9.25 excellent, a saving of less than 3% but a small fortune in money over a year to a big fleet operator. More important to my friend of course the difference between a sale and losing it to Volvo.

I only mention it because if 10% was on offer, every truck would be fitted with them...probably by law

 

[milliesdad]

Just have to reply to this topic as i'm the ultimate cynic (or realist, you choose).

If these things really worked we would never have heard of them.

If i invented a device tomorrow that doubled MPG of every vehicle would the government (or the Chancellor in particular) give me a pat on the back and a hearty handshake or would i be propping up a motorway somewhere and my blueprints burned?

The government (of any colour) make a vast amount from fuel duty -and don't forget we pay VAT on this duty - which is why

a. we will never have a half decent public transport system, and

b. as soon as enough people have converted to LPG a report will come out detailing that it is not as clean and environmentally friendly as we all thought and thus our caring chancellor will slap a hefty "green" tax on that as well.

 

[gary]

With hindsight you are more than likely right Stewart! either that or increase the tax to compensate.

I have always thought refining produces petrol and diesel and this process cannot be stopped, you get them whether you want them or not?. This raises the question what would we do with petrol if we did not burn it it cars?. I know 'Diesel' has some other uses but cannot think of one for petrol??...over to you Rob

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Gary,

What can the refinery produce from crude oil? Pretty much anything from methane to road tar.

The first pass through the refinery distillation towers usually splits the crude oil into light gases (methane to propane), light naphtha fraction (most of which will become petrol), light gas oil (diesel), heavy gas oil, lubricating oil, and other fractions further up the boiling range until you end up with the black crud that drops out the bottom of the tower.

Then additional parts of the refinery can take streams that are in surplus and convert them into something useful - so heavy crud can be cracked (high temperature and a catalyst) into something useful - like more naphtha to turn into petrol.

This cracking process is so widely used that there is a world shortage of high quality black crud - actually high purity carbon for aluminium refining.

But if there was a world shortage of plastic bags, then the refinery could be adjusted to make loads of ethane and pass this onto a nearby polymer plant.

Modern refineries are pretty flexible - within limits.

Robert

 

[Andrew_5089094]

Hi Gary,

What can the refinery produce from crude oil? Pretty much anything from methane to road tar.

The first pass through the refinery distillation towers usually splits the crude oil into light gases (methane to propane), light naphtha fraction (most of which will become petrol), light gas oil (diesel), heavy gas oil, lubricating oil, and other fractions further up the boiling range until you end up with the black crud that drops out the bottom of the tower.

Then additional parts of the refinery can take streams that are in surplus and convert them into something useful - so heavy crud can be cracked (high temperature and a catalyst) into something useful - like more naphtha to turn into petrol.

This cracking process is so widely used that there is a world shortage of high quality black crud - actually high purity carbon for aluminium refining.

But if there was a world shortage of plastic bags, then the refinery could be adjusted to make loads of ethane and pass this onto a nearby polymer plant.

Modern refineries are pretty flexible - within limits.

Robert

Now to realy start a whole host of agro......

I run a 1.9 diesel non turbo Escort van for work, purchased with a full service history from a known source with 70,000. I got as did the first owner about 330 miles per tank full.

For the last couple of years my mechanic has been trying to get me to put an additive in my oil change. Now I used to race Mini's and consider all this stuff as 'Snake oil'. However on my last oil change (always Mobile 1) I always need a bit more than a bottle, this time I had none so without telling me he used the additive.

The first fill was 380, so I phone him to tell him how happy I was with the service and he asked how many miles I had done since "Only 200" wait untill the next tank full he says and confess' his sins. Next tankfull was 420 and has remained so for 12,000 miles! At