Regarding towing

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Nov 6, 2005
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CAMC and any owner of a caravan outfit can easily find out the plated maximum weight of a caravan and the kerb weight of the towing vehicle.
For example and in my case......
Hyundai Santa Fe 2016 = around 2000kgs.
Swift caravan =1600kgs.
I easily fulfill the CAMC requirement.
Tow my caravan with a Golf 2litre diesel around 1400kgs and I would fall foul of the CAMC requirement even though the Golf can legally tow a 1600kgs braked caravan.
IMO......The clause is about acceptable towing ratios determined by definitions not actual weights at the time of any claim.
Finding out the kerbweight isn't possible for many cars as many manufacturers don't publish it - what's usually published is the unladen weight or the Mass in Running Order - the 100% clause is unenforceable in many case due to the use of an undefined term.
 
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Another issue that would require clarification is what MTPLM of the caravan are they referring to? Is it the MTPLM displayed on the statutory plate or the MTPLM on the label by the door? The two may not necessarily be the same. Although the details on the statutory plate is the only one that is recognised by legal requirements, the insurance company may argue that the MTPLM on the label by the door is a plated value, which it often isn’t.
 
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Finding out the kerbweight isn't possible for many cars as many manufacturers don't publish it - what's usually published is the unladen weight or the Mass in Running Order - the 100% clause is unenforceable in many case due to the use of an undefined term.

To add to the confusion, some manufacturers quote a figure that they call kerbweight although upon closer scrutiny it’s Mass in Running Order and not kerbweight. Besides, kerbweight is specific to each and every car (which, by the way, MIRO isn’t) so a published value can be no more than a rough guide. Kerbweight isn’t documented anywhere. MIRO is a generic value that is valid only for the base model without any factory-fitted options.
 
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Another issue that would require clarification is what MTPLM of the caravan are they referring to? Is it the MTPLM displayed on the statutory plate or the MTPLM on the label by the door? The two may not necessarily be the same. Although the details on the statutory plate is the only one that is recognised by legal requirements, the insurance company may argue that the MTPLM on the label by the door is a plated value, which it often isn’t.
I remember Mr Plod trying to ascertain from Bailey just what the plate on the door referred to and which one would be deemed "law" should anyone be stopped and weighed. From distant memory he didn't get a specific answer despite being somewhat persistent with them! His post is over on CT somewhere and makes entertaining reading.
 
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I remember Mr Plod trying to ascertain from Bailey just what the plate on the door referred to and which one would be deemed "law" should anyone be stopped and weighed. From distant memory he didn't get a specific answer despite being somewhat persistent with them! His post is over on CT somewhere and makes entertaining reading.

A caravan can only have one MTPLM. If it displays two values on different plates then either they must be accompanied by a note to say which applies under what conditions or one of the two is superfluous. It would be logical to accept only that value which is on a plate that meets the requirements of a statutory plate.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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I don't think the sticker on the body of the caravan is a statutory or mandatory sticker, but more of a guideline by the manufacturer. After 2012 apparently there is a fixed plate somewhere on the chassis that is mandatory and complies with statutory requirements.
 
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I don't think the sticker on the body of the caravan is a statutory or mandatory sticker, but more of a guideline by the manufacturer. After 2012 apparently there is a fixed plate somewhere on the chassis that is mandatory and complies with statutory requirements.
Usually in the gas locker on the bulkhead, a lively topic that gets resurrected over on CT about once every six months!
 
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I have looked for this Fictional, plate on my 2013 Coachman, and cannot find it. I contacted Coachman and they answered, Oh , it should be there somewhere.
 
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See #16..
I’d rather this wasn’t closed down until we hear about Roger’s reply from CAMC.

Caravan Guard’s exclusion reads-“ Being towed by any vehicle if the vehicle’s gross train weight is exceeded”. Any clearer😋
 
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See #16..
I’d rather this wasn’t closed down until we hear about Roger’s reply from CAMC.

Caravan Guard’s exclusion reads-“ Being towed by any vehicle if the vehicle’s gross train weight is exceeded”. Any clearer😋
I've had no response so far - I'll give them a few more days andthen start chasing them
 
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Maybe I didn't word my question very well - my request was answered by a Technical Advisor as follows:-

"I have carried out an outfit match between the car and caravan you have specified and have attached the match to this email for your reading. This will include the technical data we have for this model of the VW Touareg including the kerb weight. You should also be able to find the kerb weight (also known as mass in service) in the V5 document. If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me."

The outfit match uses our present caravan and showed nothing I don't already know, ie that my Towing Ratio is 65%.

I'll try asking the question a different way.
 
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I know it seems incredible, BUT I am convinced that some insurance companies really haven't done the detail needed to back up their small print clauses in this case and have simply latched onto the NCC/clubs kerbweight fascination. I suppose it would take a court case or the like for them to realise their error?
 
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The Mass in Running Order and actual mass of my car, as documented by the manufacturer, in the Certificate of Conformity, differ by 80kg. The definition of actual mass comes closest to that of kerbweight, so that proves the two are not the same. And I’ve come across other examples where the difference is a lot greater than 80kg.
 
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See https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained Sort of contradictory as it states Mass in running order is the total weight of a vehicle when it’s empty and ready to be used on the road without carrying any passengers, goods or other items which seems to be the same as kerb weight.

However it also states that "Mass in running order for cars, buses and lorries includes the driver, the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle along with essential fluids like oil and a full tank of fuel."
 
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Just had a long phone conversation with Technical Support at the Caravan Club - in summary they use Type Approval Mass-in-service but couldn't/wouldn't explain why they use the term "kerbweight"
That's interesting, but doesn't help in our legal situation. Except when I have paid for their legal bit on the clubs "Insurance cover" which we know is not an Insurance company.
 
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See https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained Sort of contradictory as it states Mass in running order is the total weight of a vehicle when it’s empty and ready to be used on the road without carrying any passengers, goods or other items which seems to be the same as kerb weight.

However it also states that "Mass in running order for cars, buses and lorries includes the driver, the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle along with essential fluids like oil and a full tank of fuel."

It would help if the government website referenced the source of their statements. Then they would have seen that neither of their two ‘definitions’ is completely correct.
Mass in Running Order is that of a base vehicle without any factory fitted options, with a 75kg allowance for the driver and a 90% filled fuel tank. On all three counts it differs from the definition of kerbweight.
 
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It would help if the government website referenced the source of their statements. Then they would have seen that neither of their two ‘definitions’ is completely correct.
Mass in Running Order is that of a base vehicle without any factory fitted options, with a 75kg allowance for the driver and a 90% filled fuel tank. On all three counts it differs from the definition of kerbweight.
So basically there is nothing , in law, written down.
Lutz, may I ask what is the definition of Kerb weight, in Europe. if there is one. As you are more likely to know.
Or as in the UK, all countries differ.
 
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So basically there is nothing , in law, written down.
Lutz, may I ask what is the definition of Kerb weight, in Europe. if there is one. As you are more likely to know.
Or as in the UK, all countries differ.

Kerbweight, or kerbside weight as UK legislation calls it, is defined in the Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations of 1986. Mass in Running Order is defined in EU Regulation 1230/2012/EC (there is a later amendment but I can’t find it at the moment).
The term ‘kerbweight’ is purely UK nomenclature and is not recognised in any EU regulation.
 
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Kerbweight, or kerbside weight as UK legislation calls it, is defined in the Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations of 1986. Mass in Running Order is defined in EU Regulation 1230/2012/EC (there is a later amendment but I can’t find it at the moment).
The term ‘kerbweight’ is purely UK nomenclature and is not recognised in any EU regulation.
Can you please elaborate on the differences between what that gov.uk website states and what it should be for MIRO. Thanks.

It seems that if the government are not clear how can the CAMC decide what kerb weight is on their documentation as basically it is something that is non-existent? I think the CAMC would have a very hard time in a court of law especially if the combination was within the train weight of the towing vehicle.
 
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Can you please elaborate on the differences between what that gov.uk website states and what it should be for MIRO. Thanks.

It seems that if the government are not clear how can the CAMC decide what kerb weight is on their documentation as basically it is something that is non-existent? I think the CAMC would have a very hard time in a court of law especially if the combination was within the train weight of the towing vehicle.
What the government website doesn’t point out is that MIRO is not the weight of the vehicle in question but that of a basically “naked” vehicle without any factory fitted options that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. The difference may not be very great if not many factory fitted options are offered, as in the case of many UK caravans, but there was a case on another forum recently, involving a foreign make, where because the caravan was fully loaded with practically all available options, the difference between MIRO and actual weight was over 200kg.

In addition, one must bear in mind that manufacturers are not obliged to publish kerbweight and they don’t, even if some call the weights that they quote “kerbweight”. The closest value to kerbweight that they must supply is “actual mass”. Actual mass is documented in the type approval Certificate of Conformity, but in the UK that certificate is seldom passed on to the customer, (it should be and the customer has the right to request it). In fact, it's essential in those countries where the dealer doesn't register the vehicle but the holder personally. In the case of a caravan, actual mass and kerbweight would be the same, but for a car the difference would be:

1. Kerbweight is with a full fuel tank, actual mass includes a tank that is 90% full.
2. Kerbweight is without a driver, actual mass has a 75kg allowance for the driver.

Theoretically, kerbweight also includes all permanent aftermarket features fitted by the dealer or vehicle owner, such as maybe a towbar for example, whereas actual mass is always an ex-works figure.
 
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See https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained Sort of contradictory as it states Mass in running order is the total weight of a vehicle when it’s empty and ready to be used on the road without carrying any passengers, goods or other items which seems to be the same as kerb weight.

However it also states that "Mass in running order for cars, buses and lorries includes the driver, the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle along with essential fluids like oil and a full tank of fuel."
There are two issues with relying on the information given on the Governments web site.

The first is the webpage is not the defining document of the law, it is only a Civil Servants vastly skimmed down interpretation of the relevant Act of Parliament or Regulations.

And the second issue there are nuances of the underlying document which are missed out or not understood by the author, or as was the case regarding the definitions of the driving licences cat B definition which missed the crucial difference between the use of weight and weight limits in definitions.

The upshot is when comes down to minutiae and detail you can't trust the portal, you should always refer to the original source documentation.
 

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