Regarding towing

[Hutch]

In France its 90/80kph if your GTW is above 3500kg

Thanks Clive, I have amended my post to show the correct speed limits.

 

[ProfJohnL]

But in all the above posts about speed limits the limit is enshrined in law, and in each of the cases, the applicable limit is defined by a mass limit which is unambiguous. and stamped on the vehicles plate.

A UK caravan manufacturer producing product for the UK market has to provide type approval and a certificate of conformity. Part of that conformity might include a maximum designed speed limit. That limit is part of its specification will apply everywhere, even where towing limits allow for higher speeds! Because there is a declared speed limit on the trailer, exceeding it could be declared as dangerous driving or having an unsafe vehicle.

 

[Raywood]

We have had this when in France. The cars gross train weight was just above 3,500 but its maximum loaded weight and the caravans MTPLM were below just that, yet we were still subject to the lower speed limit.

 

[Lutz]

What weight spec is used for the car?

In Germany legislation in this respect is just as ambiguous as in the UK. The law that I mentioned regarding weight ratios refers to "Leermasse" and that is an old term that is similarly vaguely defined as kerbweight in UK legislation. In the registration certificate Mass in Running Order is entered under “Leermasse”, just as it is under Mass in Service in the UK V5.
This has been recognised as being just as unrealistic as it has in the UK. However, the Germans treat the subject pragmatically and the advice given is to use actual mass rather than Mass in Running Order. This is somewhat easier in Germany because the vehicle owner is always issued with the Certificate of Conformity which documents actual mass, so the owner always has documentary proof at hand which he can present to the powers-that-be, should the need arise.

 

[otherclive]

In Germany legislation in this respect is just as ambiguous as in the UK. The law that I mentioned regarding weight ratios refers to "Leermasse" and that is an old term that is similarly vaguely defined as kerbweight in UK legislation. In the registration certificate Mass in Running Order is entered under “Leermasse”, just as it is under Mass in Service in the UK V5.
This has been recognised just as unrealistic as it has in the UK. However, the Germans treat the subject pragmatically and the advice given is to use actual mass rather than Mass in Running Order. This is somewhat easier in Germany because the vehicle owner is always issued with the Certificate of Conformity which documents actual mass, so the owner always has documentary proof at hand which he can present to the powers-that-be, should the need arise.

Thank you. A typical example of German attention to detail 👍

 

[Lutz]

I checked our handbook regarding the MTPLM and another clause cropped up stating that the caravan is designed to be towed at a maximum speed of 60mph. Although 60mph is the legal limit does this mean that you you travel at 61mph the caravan is going to fall apart? LOL! I think in France depending on the caravan it can be towed at a higher speed?

It certainly demonstrates that figures are made up as they go along. Even the MTPLM on the sticker is probably below the actual plated maximum weight allowed on the axles?

The 60mph is a limit that the chassis and caravan manufacturers have set as the maximum for which they will accept product liability. That means, for example, if you are towing an outfit under 3500kg in France at 130km/h, which is legally possible, and something fails causing an accident, you're on your own and you have no opportunity for any claim against the manufacturer.
A weight plate on an axle is irrelevant to the owner of the vehicle. It's the axle limits and MTPLM shown on the statutory plate that count.

 

[Lutz]

In Germany legislation in this respect is just as ambiguous as in the UK. The law that I mentioned regarding weight ratios refers to "Leermasse" and that is an old term that is similarly vaguely defined as kerbweight in UK legislation. In the registration certificate Mass in Running Order is entered under “Leermasse”, just as it is under Mass in Service in the UK V5.
This has been recognised as being just as unrealistic as it has in the UK. However, the Germans treat the subject pragmatically and the advice given is to use actual mass rather than Mass in Running Order. This is somewhat easier in Germany because the vehicle owner is always issued with the Certificate of Conformity which documents actual mass, so the owner always has documentary proof at hand which he can present to the powers-that-be, should the need arise.

Thank you. A typical example of German attention to detail 👍

The problem has arisen because the law in Germany specifying weight ratio limits was introduced before actual mass was added as one of the values documented in the Certificate of Conformity. The law should really be brought into line with current details, but I guess legislators have more important things to do than to concern themselves with such petty issues.

 

[Buckman]

The 60mph is a limit that the chassis and caravan manufacturers have set as the maximum for which they will accept product liability. That means, for example, if you are towing an outfit under 3500kg in France at 130km/h, which is legally possible, and something fails causing an accident, you're on your own and you have no opportunity for any claim against the manufacturer.
A weight plate on an axle is irrelevant to the owner of the vehicle. It's the axle limits and MTPLM shown on the statutory plate that count.

I must admit I don't know where the statutory plate is located. However there is the sticker on the caravan body.

 

[Lutz]

I must admit I don't know where the statutory plate is located. However there is the sticker on the caravan body.

The sticker on the caravan body is there for marketing information only and doesn't comply with requirements to display axle load limits, for example. However, the statutory plate that I was referring to didn't become mandatory until whole vehicle type approval for caravans was introduced in 2012.