Colin as Gatso's are supposed to be in areas of danger it is very unlikely that a good driver would be overataking or find himself in a position where he had to accelerate over a limit as an avoidance safety measure.
Lutz, comment here refers to general driving not Caravanning.
But if you take it that you are towing you van at the legal 30moh speed limit acoss an intersectiuon and you see an out of control vehicle heading for you from the side at high speed leaving you wityh the option of accelerating over the limit and getting to safety or maintaining 30mph as it is the legal limit and getting killed. According to John L you have no reason ever to exceed a speed limit and driver safety organisations would rather you die ;-(
But if you take it that you are towing you van at the legal 30moh speed limit acoss an intersectiuon and you see an out of control vehicle heading for you from the side at high speed leaving you wityh the option of accelerating over the limit and getting to safety or maintaining 30mph as it is the legal limit and getting killed. According to John L you have no reason ever to exceed a speed limit and driver safety organisations would rather you die ;-(
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Cris,
I am sorry if my posting disagrees with you, but I shall leave it up to others to decide if what I have written is or is not offensive or inaccurate. Perhaps others would wish to comment on that.
I am waiting for replies from both the IAM and ROSPA. Provided they give me permission to reprint their responses I will do so, Or if they point to any published statements relating to this issue I will include the references.
I am sorry if my posting disagrees with you, but I shall leave it up to others to decide if what I have written is or is not offensive or inaccurate. Perhaps others would wish to comment on that.
I am waiting for replies from both the IAM and ROSPA. Provided they give me permission to reprint their responses I will do so, Or if they point to any published statements relating to this issue I will include the references.
John L I have no idea who you are and and for all I know you are probably the king of Tonga but I assume that you post in good faith as John L. Lutz, Rob Jax, Birian (S A) and Steve _ amnd others post various thing and some time I agree and others I don't but I am not rude enough to queery what they say id from good experience or do assume that Rob really mixes cleaning fluid rather than work as an industrial chemist in Holland if it does not suit your insular world as your views are so restricted that you can not acept copmmon sense apart from honest open fact and experience.
Your post in this thread suggests that I am promoting/suggesting speeding when that is not the case and I have not agreed with Steves posting but you posted the following
"There is absolutely no due cause or reason for a member of the public under any circumstances to take it upon them selves to knowingly exceed the speed limit."
This is simply not the case as if you find yourself in Danger whilst driving the best and only safe option may be to accelerate under a number of diferent scenarios, that is not a blanket instruction that youi have I am suggestinmg breaking speed limits for fun but what you are trained to react under some dangerous circumstances and does not come in your blanket statement that is very fool hardy. No matter what training anyone has done or not done if you can not see that or understand that point you are in need of adavnced training as you have learnt little as a road user.
99.99999999% of the time the advanced driver will be reading the road ahead and position hios vehicle re saftey and visibilty to others especially in the case of Motorcycling more so than a car and all factors such as hedge roaws and road surface com into how the driver uses his vehicle.
At the end of the day when the hopefully rare unexpected danger threratens yours or others road safety any driver that does not exceed the limit for a brief moment to avoid an accident if that is the only option is an idiot and a danger to other road users.
I suggest you ask Rospa or the IAM or any other road safety organisation what they suggest YOU do if you are going down a steep hill on the speed limit and a following lorries brakes fail. Your option ARE
1 - "There is absolutely no due cause or reason for a member of the public under any circumstances to take it upon them selves to knowingly exceed the speed limit. Result + You will be hit by the following lorry that sends you oout of control into the path of oncoming cars killing you and numerous others !
2 - Accelerate briefly on the clear lane ahead of you thus allowing the lorry to use the steep hills escape lane that is slightly ahead of the point of impact between you and the lorry if you maintain the speed limit. Result = one releived but shocked uninjured lorrry driver and you and all the others on the road untouched.
As said these things do not happen often, but answer the question John L instead of insulting what others post in good faith.
2 -
Your post in this thread suggests that I am promoting/suggesting speeding when that is not the case and I have not agreed with Steves posting but you posted the following
"There is absolutely no due cause or reason for a member of the public under any circumstances to take it upon them selves to knowingly exceed the speed limit."
This is simply not the case as if you find yourself in Danger whilst driving the best and only safe option may be to accelerate under a number of diferent scenarios, that is not a blanket instruction that youi have I am suggestinmg breaking speed limits for fun but what you are trained to react under some dangerous circumstances and does not come in your blanket statement that is very fool hardy. No matter what training anyone has done or not done if you can not see that or understand that point you are in need of adavnced training as you have learnt little as a road user.
99.99999999% of the time the advanced driver will be reading the road ahead and position hios vehicle re saftey and visibilty to others especially in the case of Motorcycling more so than a car and all factors such as hedge roaws and road surface com into how the driver uses his vehicle.
At the end of the day when the hopefully rare unexpected danger threratens yours or others road safety any driver that does not exceed the limit for a brief moment to avoid an accident if that is the only option is an idiot and a danger to other road users.
I suggest you ask Rospa or the IAM or any other road safety organisation what they suggest YOU do if you are going down a steep hill on the speed limit and a following lorries brakes fail. Your option ARE
1 - "There is absolutely no due cause or reason for a member of the public under any circumstances to take it upon them selves to knowingly exceed the speed limit. Result + You will be hit by the following lorry that sends you oout of control into the path of oncoming cars killing you and numerous others !
2 - Accelerate briefly on the clear lane ahead of you thus allowing the lorry to use the steep hills escape lane that is slightly ahead of the point of impact between you and the lorry if you maintain the speed limit. Result = one releived but shocked uninjured lorrry driver and you and all the others on the road untouched.
As said these things do not happen often, but answer the question John L instead of insulting what others post in good faith.
2 -
chris
I am with you on this one and said so
I can put my hand on heart and say yes I do exeed the speed limits from time to time just like anyone else anybody who says they dont ever do it, is either fibbing or doesn't have a accelerator pedal
as for gatsos well there is plenty of comments on this forum about them so I'll leave it at that
like i said 42 years on the road with out a scratch or a ticket but I will state this :- speed up and get out of trouble or get hit no contest
I am with you on this one and said so
I can put my hand on heart and say yes I do exeed the speed limits from time to time just like anyone else anybody who says they dont ever do it, is either fibbing or doesn't have a accelerator pedal
as for gatsos well there is plenty of comments on this forum about them so I'll leave it at that
like i said 42 years on the road with out a scratch or a ticket but I will state this :- speed up and get out of trouble or get hit no contest
So we have Colin an experienced driver that can understand a simple concept and JohnL who can not understand that safety driver training includes dealing with the unusual/extreme/rare moment of danger ! And also has the audacity to suggest that you may not have done such training as it seems it does not fit with his insular ways.
Steve,
You have NOT been trained to Police High Speed Standard, but you have been trained to appreciate hazards and to give yourself the most important life saving driving skill......TIME TO REACT.
Your observations have been improved and you will have been taught the tell tale signs to look for to hopefully avoid trouble.
This has been done at no more than the speed limit applicable to the road you are driving on.
To drive at high speed, over 100mph for eg, you have to have these skills fine tuned and this fine tuning can only be done at those speeds.
I am a Advanced Police Driver and have been trained at speeds that I will never drive at again. What I have learned at those high speeds has made me a safer driver, but I am not niave enough to think that this training justifies driving at speeds in excess of the applicable speed limit at the time.
Driving on a track is a totally different thing to driving on the road, so I fail to see the relevance of that comment.
Remember, you have not been trained to drive at high speeds. You have been trained to look for the tell-tale signs and react accordingly........up to the speed lmits.
Steve,
You have NOT been trained to Police High Speed Standard, but you have been trained to appreciate hazards and to give yourself the most important life saving driving skill......TIME TO REACT.
Your observations have been improved and you will have been taught the tell tale signs to look for to hopefully avoid trouble.
This has been done at no more than the speed limit applicable to the road you are driving on.
To drive at high speed, over 100mph for eg, you have to have these skills fine tuned and this fine tuning can only be done at those speeds.
I am a Advanced Police Driver and have been trained at speeds that I will never drive at again. What I have learned at those high speeds has made me a safer driver, but I am not niave enough to think that this training justifies driving at speeds in excess of the applicable speed limit at the time.
Driving on a track is a totally different thing to driving on the road, so I fail to see the relevance of that comment.
Remember, you have not been trained to drive at high speeds. You have been trained to look for the tell-tale signs and react accordingly........up to the speed lmits.
You have NOT been trained to Police High Speed Standard, but you have been trained to appreciate hazards and to give yourself the most important life saving driving skill......TIME TO REACT.
Your observations have been improved and you will have been taught the tell tale signs to look for to hopefully avoid trouble.
This has been done at no more than the speed limit applicable to the road you are driving on.
To drive at high speed, over 100mph for eg, you have to have these skills fine tuned and this fine tuning can only be done at those speeds.
I am a Advanced Police Driver and have been trained at speeds that I will never drive at again. What I have learned at those high speeds has made me a safer driver, but I am not niave enough to think that this training justifies driving at speeds in excess of the applicable speed limit at the time.
Driving on a track is a totally different thing to driving on the road, so I fail to see the relevance of that comment.
Remember, you have not been trained to drive at high speeds. You have been trained to look for the tell-tale signs and react accordingly........up to the speed lmits.
Experimental and Humour injection!
If you david could put on your humour had and I'll put on my John L hat ;-)
So here goes -
"For various reasons few if any of us actually give our full names and addresses, so none of the statements made here are actually corroborated or traceable."
So david I have no idea if you really are/were a police trained driver so you could actually be Lord Lucan a butcher or even Larry Grayson reincarnated!
Mind you if I slip my cris hat back on I find what you say corresponds with what I know and I like your PC posting but doubt exactly what you put re you breaking the limit for variou reasons but will give you the benefit of doubt.
But if you are honest you know from your training and common sense that there are times when a short injection of speed to avoid an accident is the only option due to circumstances beyond even the best trained driver.
If you've read my post above you will note that for my first IAM bike test the examiner was a serving offocer and head of his counties bike unit.
At one talk he was at, he and another police trafic oficer were discussing between themselves a Police training course they had just been on. Ideas had changed re police riders entering a hatched road marking section during high speed persuits. Where in years gone by they'd had some kind og Appproval for using those areas of the road research suggested that they should be avoided and not used and the refresher type course advised them on the changes of procedure and the reasoning behind them.
But they then went onto lay out reasons why it would still be acceptable in certain scenarios to go onto the hatched markings!
As said above, during my first test I had an idiot do something silly and accelerated briefly over the speed limit as I has no other safe option. We had been taught about such scenarios at IAM meetings, but with a serving police officer following me I was very concerned that may be I could have done something else.
At the post test debriefing I was praised for doing the correct thing and as the speed was just enough to get me and others out of trouble and that as soon as I was clear I was on back to the limits of the raod and sittuation all was very well and no marks were deducted.
And can I ask a Police trained driver if you were in some sort of Police High speed persuit and a car that you were to pass had a car pull onto the other side of the road driver in a dream failing to see you flashing lights or hear you sirens thus blocking the road.
Would you expect the trained observant driver you were planning to pass to continue at 30MPH meaning that you hit him or the other dozy driver or would it be OK for the other trained driver to briefly pop above the limit if possible and thus allow you safe passage ?
Training I've had says if the way was clear I would briefly exceed the limit for my own yours and others safety, not blindly stay at 30MPH and contribute to an unfortunate accident.
If you david could put on your humour had and I'll put on my John L hat ;-)
So here goes -
"For various reasons few if any of us actually give our full names and addresses, so none of the statements made here are actually corroborated or traceable."
So david I have no idea if you really are/were a police trained driver so you could actually be Lord Lucan a butcher or even Larry Grayson reincarnated!
Mind you if I slip my cris hat back on I find what you say corresponds with what I know and I like your PC posting but doubt exactly what you put re you breaking the limit for variou reasons but will give you the benefit of doubt.
But if you are honest you know from your training and common sense that there are times when a short injection of speed to avoid an accident is the only option due to circumstances beyond even the best trained driver.
If you've read my post above you will note that for my first IAM bike test the examiner was a serving offocer and head of his counties bike unit.
At one talk he was at, he and another police trafic oficer were discussing between themselves a Police training course they had just been on. Ideas had changed re police riders entering a hatched road marking section during high speed persuits. Where in years gone by they'd had some kind og Appproval for using those areas of the road research suggested that they should be avoided and not used and the refresher type course advised them on the changes of procedure and the reasoning behind them.
But they then went onto lay out reasons why it would still be acceptable in certain scenarios to go onto the hatched markings!
As said above, during my first test I had an idiot do something silly and accelerated briefly over the speed limit as I has no other safe option. We had been taught about such scenarios at IAM meetings, but with a serving police officer following me I was very concerned that may be I could have done something else.
At the post test debriefing I was praised for doing the correct thing and as the speed was just enough to get me and others out of trouble and that as soon as I was clear I was on back to the limits of the raod and sittuation all was very well and no marks were deducted.
And can I ask a Police trained driver if you were in some sort of Police High speed persuit and a car that you were to pass had a car pull onto the other side of the road driver in a dream failing to see you flashing lights or hear you sirens thus blocking the road.
Would you expect the trained observant driver you were planning to pass to continue at 30MPH meaning that you hit him or the other dozy driver or would it be OK for the other trained driver to briefly pop above the limit if possible and thus allow you safe passage ?
Training I've had says if the way was clear I would briefly exceed the limit for my own yours and others safety, not blindly stay at 30MPH and contribute to an unfortunate accident.
What's this got to do with a Renault Laguna?, It's amazing how threads get sidetracked.
For my own two penneth worth, with the exception of some major routes it is unfeasable to have variable speed limits according to traffic and weather conditions, so a compromise fixed limit is imposed on our roads, just as there are times when travelling within the limit is still too fast (fog / snow,)there are also times when exceeding the speed limit does not present excessive risk. at the end of the day, the law is the law
For my own two penneth worth, with the exception of some major routes it is unfeasable to have variable speed limits according to traffic and weather conditions, so a compromise fixed limit is imposed on our roads, just as there are times when travelling within the limit is still too fast (fog / snow,)there are also times when exceeding the speed limit does not present excessive risk. at the end of the day, the law is the law
yes all thats been discussed will make no difference to the way anyone drives..or the speed they drive at..just relax..make the most of life...its easy
- Jun 20, 2005
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Steve,
I have just picked up this thread and quite frankly am amazed that a "caravan forum" is being used to justify high speed driving on our British roads.
I was chairman of our local IAM Institute and passed my IAM test in 1984.
My examiner was the head of the County's traffic division. At the start of the test he emphasised he wanted a good positive progressive drive maintaining progress within the stated speed limits. Any exceeding of the speed limits would result in an automatic failure.
Taliking to our current local IAM observers there is no evidence available to me to sugest it is "ok" to break the speed limits! Rules are there for a reason, not of our choosing, and thus if we choose to break them we must suffer the consequences f caught. I very much doubt a magistrate or judge would condone your views on breaking the speed limits. Anyway it is your licence and wallet that will be injured , never mind an innocent third party.
If you overtake me and my caravan at the speeds suggested do you have any idea on the shock wave you are creating?
I can only reiterate that as far as I am concerned the IAM does NOT condone breaking the sped limit.
Hope you live long and avoid all the plain clothes cop cars out there; or do you have some special dispensation not enjoyed by the rest of us.
Finally to resolve this issue once and for all why don't you send this entire posting to Chris Bullock CEO at IAM head office for his adjudication?? That will settle the matter once and for all.
Cheers
Robbo
I have just picked up this thread and quite frankly am amazed that a "caravan forum" is being used to justify high speed driving on our British roads.
I was chairman of our local IAM Institute and passed my IAM test in 1984.
My examiner was the head of the County's traffic division. At the start of the test he emphasised he wanted a good positive progressive drive maintaining progress within the stated speed limits. Any exceeding of the speed limits would result in an automatic failure.
Taliking to our current local IAM observers there is no evidence available to me to sugest it is "ok" to break the speed limits! Rules are there for a reason, not of our choosing, and thus if we choose to break them we must suffer the consequences f caught. I very much doubt a magistrate or judge would condone your views on breaking the speed limits. Anyway it is your licence and wallet that will be injured , never mind an innocent third party.
If you overtake me and my caravan at the speeds suggested do you have any idea on the shock wave you are creating?
I can only reiterate that as far as I am concerned the IAM does NOT condone breaking the sped limit.
Hope you live long and avoid all the plain clothes cop cars out there; or do you have some special dispensation not enjoyed by the rest of us.
Finally to resolve this issue once and for all why don't you send this entire posting to Chris Bullock CEO at IAM head office for his adjudication?? That will settle the matter once and for all.
Cheers
Robbo
Alan
Firstly I would point out that John L is not likely to beleive what you say about belonging to the IAM ! ;-)
Secondly.
It is a long time since I did the IAM car test and a while since I did the bike tests. But as mentioned. My first bike test was examined by the head of the counties police bike division and I had an incident where i had to acclerate over thelimit due to the action of another driver.
In our Surrey group the police guys often referred to incidents where brief acceleration over the limit can be the only safe option, but that is not made as a proomotion that "speeding" is acceptable.
This was also the case when I did my IAM car training !
I'm not making the point as a guide to speeding but as a pointer to blind acceptance that you must NEVER exceed a limit as you could end up in more trouble.
I would also point out that over the years I've found the number of IAM drivers with speeding tickets quite surprising and on IAM rides outs after meetings we often met other groups with some who deserved the " I AM " badge rather than the IAM one as some uses IAM as some form of snobbery bunus.
Firstly I would point out that John L is not likely to beleive what you say about belonging to the IAM ! ;-)
Secondly.
It is a long time since I did the IAM car test and a while since I did the bike tests. But as mentioned. My first bike test was examined by the head of the counties police bike division and I had an incident where i had to acclerate over thelimit due to the action of another driver.
In our Surrey group the police guys often referred to incidents where brief acceleration over the limit can be the only safe option, but that is not made as a proomotion that "speeding" is acceptable.
This was also the case when I did my IAM car training !
I'm not making the point as a guide to speeding but as a pointer to blind acceptance that you must NEVER exceed a limit as you could end up in more trouble.
I would also point out that over the years I've found the number of IAM drivers with speeding tickets quite surprising and on IAM rides outs after meetings we often met other groups with some who deserved the " I AM " badge rather than the IAM one as some uses IAM as some form of snobbery bunus.
So..........After all this childish arguing, what is the answer to the original question that Wayne asked.
I haven't been caravanning for long, we bought our van this year, I come on here to get idea's and tips about caravanning. But it really p's me off when someone ask's a simple question, like Wayne's and it ends up in a slanging match and people insulting each other. I think some people have got to much time on there hands.
I thought caravanners where a friendly bunch, but I wouldn't like to pitch up next to some people on this forum.
I've had enough of this rubbbish.
I'm off.
Happy caravanning!!
I haven't been caravanning for long, we bought our van this year, I come on here to get idea's and tips about caravanning. But it really p's me off when someone ask's a simple question, like Wayne's and it ends up in a slanging match and people insulting each other. I think some people have got to much time on there hands.
I thought caravanners where a friendly bunch, but I wouldn't like to pitch up next to some people on this forum.
I've had enough of this rubbbish.
I'm off.
Happy caravanning!!
I can understand where you`re coming from Phil.
I find the `going up to 125mph a few times` quite amusing in a car which would only do 118 when new ( or 113 depending on the model) unless it was downhill with a saturn 5 rocket giving some assistance. Takes me back to when I was a lad. Had a neighbour who had a Renault 15 (1397cc) who swore it would do 130. (manufacturer claimed 95). Must be a Renault thing.
I find the `going up to 125mph a few times` quite amusing in a car which would only do 118 when new ( or 113 depending on the model) unless it was downhill with a saturn 5 rocket giving some assistance. Takes me back to when I was a lad. Had a neighbour who had a Renault 15 (1397cc) who swore it would do 130. (manufacturer claimed 95). Must be a Renault thing.
- Mar 14, 2005
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As promised I have tried to get definitive statements from both the IAM and ROSPA regarding their views on speeding.
Having communicated with a senior person at the IAM, sadly he declined to permit me to republish our full correspondence with names and positions, but the following comments were made.
'It is not permissible to break the speed limit, which includes when doing an overtake. The law of the UK is the law, and the IAM does not have the authority to over-ride that!
With reference to the incident that cris refers to during his motorcycle IAM assessment,
'the view expressed was that of only one officer, and that all his colleagues would have to agree for one to rely on it ... and there is no exemption written into the law about it.'
ROSPA also declined permission for the text of our emails to be re-published, but they did point to website addresses for guidance notes that ROSPA publish.
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/refreshyourdriving/index.htm
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/driving/index.htm#speed
Cris,
I can appreciate that you did not like what I wrote regarding the authenticity of postings, however if you look at it objectively my statement is actually correct. You do not know me, and I do not know you. Others might think that one or both of us are trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. You only have to remember the history of this forum to realise that it is possible for people who are so minded to use it for the dissemination of incorrect information, or to cause deliberate mistrust and give personal abuse or offence. They could only get away with it because of the anonymity this site provides. The Moderators do their best under difficult circumstances.
I hope you agree that what is important is that when anyone makes a point that is contentious that they are prepared to offer a route to corroborate that statement. I have tried to do that above.
I concede that my blanket statement was too narrow, but I still stand by the sentiment.
It is still wrong for any driver to deliberately exceed the speed limit where they have the choice not to.
At this stage I do not feel compelled to post any more on this particular thread.
Having communicated with a senior person at the IAM, sadly he declined to permit me to republish our full correspondence with names and positions, but the following comments were made.
'It is not permissible to break the speed limit, which includes when doing an overtake. The law of the UK is the law, and the IAM does not have the authority to over-ride that!
With reference to the incident that cris refers to during his motorcycle IAM assessment,
'the view expressed was that of only one officer, and that all his colleagues would have to agree for one to rely on it ... and there is no exemption written into the law about it.'
ROSPA also declined permission for the text of our emails to be re-published, but they did point to website addresses for guidance notes that ROSPA publish.
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/refreshyourdriving/index.htm
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/driving/index.htm#speed
Cris,
I can appreciate that you did not like what I wrote regarding the authenticity of postings, however if you look at it objectively my statement is actually correct. You do not know me, and I do not know you. Others might think that one or both of us are trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. You only have to remember the history of this forum to realise that it is possible for people who are so minded to use it for the dissemination of incorrect information, or to cause deliberate mistrust and give personal abuse or offence. They could only get away with it because of the anonymity this site provides. The Moderators do their best under difficult circumstances.
I hope you agree that what is important is that when anyone makes a point that is contentious that they are prepared to offer a route to corroborate that statement. I have tried to do that above.
I concede that my blanket statement was too narrow, but I still stand by the sentiment.
It is still wrong for any driver to deliberately exceed the speed limit where they have the choice not to.
At this stage I do not feel compelled to post any more on this particular thread.
No worries John L, if you read my post you should have noted that I did not say that the IAM or any other safety body promoted or OK'd speeding.
I was pointing out that you posted "There is absolutely no due cause or reason for a member of the public under any circumstances to take it upon them selves to knowingly exceed the speed limit."
"Speeding" in that you race along miles of road blatantly over the limit is one thing. But if you have taken all due care re your driving and positioning and the roads conditions and you are faced with an accident sittuatin that can only be avoided by a brief but deliberate speed over the limit you have to do it or risk yours or others lives. It is common sense and good drivers instinct would have them do it with no ill intent.
But I would add that what you have posted still has no merit as we do not know who you are and if you really corresponded with ROSPA and the IAM and what you say is just available off the web and suits your arguement ;-)
ps
But actually I believe you as I aleady knew the response you would get ;-)
I was pointing out that you posted "There is absolutely no due cause or reason for a member of the public under any circumstances to take it upon them selves to knowingly exceed the speed limit."
"Speeding" in that you race along miles of road blatantly over the limit is one thing. But if you have taken all due care re your driving and positioning and the roads conditions and you are faced with an accident sittuatin that can only be avoided by a brief but deliberate speed over the limit you have to do it or risk yours or others lives. It is common sense and good drivers instinct would have them do it with no ill intent.
But I would add that what you have posted still has no merit as we do not know who you are and if you really corresponded with ROSPA and the IAM and what you say is just available off the web and suits your arguement ;-)
ps
But actually I believe you as I aleady knew the response you would get ;-)
i have a '98 laguna dti and tow a lunar venus (91) without any problems (its a little slugish uphill).
as for weights, i'll let someone who cares deal with that.
the laguna is a great towcar.
note to moderators - maybe you should lock this thread now the original question has been answered.
as for weights, i'll let someone who cares deal with that.
the laguna is a great towcar.
note to moderators - maybe you should lock this thread now the original question has been answered.
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