I first joined the CC and later joined the unfriendly one to compare them. The impression I got from the 6 sites I visited is that the club take the wardens brains away and return them when they finish. I've put the reasons before, many times on this forum, so don't intend to elaborate too much but one incidence was the early arrival fee when I turned up at 11.40 because car/caravan indicators had failed. I still had to pay
Hello Roger,
If we take accept your description of events as being accurate, I am appalled at the treatment this couple received.
If the older couple were not warned when they booked or arrived that their pitch would need to be vacated before the end of their stated stay, then quite plain and simply the warden/owner has breeched the contract that was created when the couple signed or paid for their pitch.
Whilst site rules may legitimately say that the warden or site owner may require you to move your caravan at any time during your stay, there would have to be a compelling good reason to do so, such as needing to do emergency essential safety work. I am sure that most people would be prepared to move if a tree was in danger of falling, or a drain had become blocked etc, but to make way for another caravan that had not been pre-booked before the site was occupied is not on.
It is questionable if taking the matter further would be financially worth while for the couple, as for there to be any financial judgement on the matter there would have to be a proven loss. Inconvenience can sometimes be assessed but it is not easy to value.
There could be the satisfaction of showing the site that they cannot be inconsiderate to guests, and that might send a signal to other site operators to tighten up their acts. But for any of this to happen it is essential that professional legal advice is sought.
Rogers has reported unsatisfactory events, but this might just be a highly localised issue on this one site, or with this warden perhaps he was having a bad day. The most difficult factor here is that we may not know the full accurate story.
For all readers:
When looking at a forum like this, please consider carefully the bigger picture before drawing any universal conclusions. There are many thousands of caravanner's, and if all were as unhappy as the ones that write to the forum, the forum would be massively over subscribed. But in reality the vast majority of caravanner's must be broadly satisfied with the products and services they receive, so it is only the worst cases that prompt people to write to the forum.
That doesn't mean we can be complacent, and the cases we do see are obviously serious and cause distress and they need to be addressed and resolved properly. They are also often highly individual and caused by unusual circumstances, and by their nature they are unlikely to be experienced by most people.
An increasing number of organisations are coming to terms with the fact that poor service or products are unacceptable and customers are not daft, and they are more aware of their legal rights. Most organisations are genuinely trying to improve. For these reasons, don't base a decision to cancel a subscription or change to a different manufacture simply on one or two issues here. Do more research and bear in mind the imbalanced nature of reporting biased towards bad news rather than good.
If we take accept your description of events as being accurate, I am appalled at the treatment this couple received.
If the older couple were not warned when they booked or arrived that their pitch would need to be vacated before the end of their stated stay, then quite plain and simply the warden/owner has breeched the contract that was created when the couple signed or paid for their pitch.
Whilst site rules may legitimately say that the warden or site owner may require you to move your caravan at any time during your stay, there would have to be a compelling good reason to do so, such as needing to do emergency essential safety work. I am sure that most people would be prepared to move if a tree was in danger of falling, or a drain had become blocked etc, but to make way for another caravan that had not been pre-booked before the site was occupied is not on.
It is questionable if taking the matter further would be financially worth while for the couple, as for there to be any financial judgement on the matter there would have to be a proven loss. Inconvenience can sometimes be assessed but it is not easy to value.
There could be the satisfaction of showing the site that they cannot be inconsiderate to guests, and that might send a signal to other site operators to tighten up their acts. But for any of this to happen it is essential that professional legal advice is sought.
Rogers has reported unsatisfactory events, but this might just be a highly localised issue on this one site, or with this warden perhaps he was having a bad day. The most difficult factor here is that we may not know the full accurate story.
For all readers:
When looking at a forum like this, please consider carefully the bigger picture before drawing any universal conclusions. There are many thousands of caravanner's, and if all were as unhappy as the ones that write to the forum, the forum would be massively over subscribed. But in reality the vast majority of caravanner's must be broadly satisfied with the products and services they receive, so it is only the worst cases that prompt people to write to the forum.
That doesn't mean we can be complacent, and the cases we do see are obviously serious and cause distress and they need to be addressed and resolved properly. They are also often highly individual and caused by unusual circumstances, and by their nature they are unlikely to be experienced by most people.
An increasing number of organisations are coming to terms with the fact that poor service or products are unacceptable and customers are not daft, and they are more aware of their legal rights. Most organisations are genuinely trying to improve. For these reasons, don't base a decision to cancel a subscription or change to a different manufacture simply on one or two issues here. Do more research and bear in mind the imbalanced nature of reporting biased towards bad news rather than good.
I am a member of both clubs and I have a pet hate with the C&CC over their pitch allocation and would make the following comments:- The CC system works well How can the warden on a C&CC site know what kind of pitch I prefer e.g sun/shade am/pm. trees no trees,away from larger groups etc.I'ts much nicer to go round the site and choose your pitch,without being asked by the warden "will this do" with most people being to polite to say no more than once.I once spent an evening with several other members of the C&CC and not one liked the pitch allocation system,so if the clubs moto of "run by members for members" is correct then members veiws should be taken into consideration. In the clubs recent survey an ideal opportunity was missed by not asking the question many members feel so strongly about. If the club wants to know what its members think why not have a box to tick asking them when they renew their membership or when they sign in on site (no cost involved)and then the club that is run by members for members could act on their wishes. Finally, just think about all the other jobs the wardens could be doing if they weren't allocating pitches - they could still help those who needed or requested it
No, only a short while in comparison to other people. We first went caravanning in 1967 when we travelled from Cape Town and all round the then prosperous country of Rhodesia. Probably did in the vicinity of about 6000 miles in less than a month.
Oh yes, when I was in my twenties in the early seventies I live in the bush among all sorts of wild animals in a caravan. Even had a leopard come into the awning one evening. Travelled to a lot of places in Southern Africa with a caravan.
More recently we purchased a caravan in 2004. In 2006 we lived permanently in a caravan for nearly 2 and a half years on a site however prior to that and now we caravan at every opportunity going out most weekends.
So you see we are actually novice caravanners with very little knowledge but we do not what an "unfriendly" organisation is and we do not know when people talk down to us like we are idiots and we are now able to identify little Hitlers!
After reading RogerP comments with regards to two pensioners being told to move pitch as the warden had allocated their pitch to another, wow what a load of c--p what a club so glad that I have never set foot on one of their sites.So Surprised that other members did not come to their aid with support.
Had a experience once when staying at a cc site in suffolk, we had the horrific experience of seeing raw sewage being pumped out of a main drain and flooding several pitches mine included.
this was the result of another site where the pipes ran through the cc site grounds. The wardens organised the removal of the sewage being pumped into special containers, our pitches where sprayed with a anti bacterial substance, to get rid of the germs and the smell, after discussions between the site members where their pitches had been fouled and the warden, each of us was refunded 3 days pitch prices.
Wonder what that other club would have done.
Had a experience once when staying at a cc site in suffolk, we had the horrific experience of seeing raw sewage being pumped out of a main drain and flooding several pitches mine included.
this was the result of another site where the pipes ran through the cc site grounds. The wardens organised the removal of the sewage being pumped into special containers, our pitches where sprayed with a anti bacterial substance, to get rid of the germs and the smell, after discussions between the site members where their pitches had been fouled and the warden, each of us was refunded 3 days pitch prices.
Wonder what that other club would have done.
Give them a shovel, bucket, mop and a plastic bag incase they want to take some home for their tomato plants :O)
For balance I feel obliged to say that I have only had good experiences with C&CC sites. The pitch allocation is not really a problem, and the reasons are easy to understand - they vary in size and suitability, there are often tents to fit in, and where we have expressed a preference they have done their best to accommodate us. I prefer the CC overall, principally because their facilities are on average a bit better - but individual sites vary and our favourite site is actually a C&CC one.
Rules I have no problem with as long as they are applied consistently. I can think of none that are not there for the common good. I do wish that the CC, having banned ball games except in designated areas, would enforce the ban; I also wonder why I bother to delay my arrival until 12.00 when it is common to see units arriving from 9.00 on on some sites; at least the C&CC has some sort of answer to this.
Clearly something went wrong in this case, but one bad site/warden/**** up would not cause me to resign my membership of either club. Both provide excellent sites and good facilities.
Rules I have no problem with as long as they are applied consistently. I can think of none that are not there for the common good. I do wish that the CC, having banned ball games except in designated areas, would enforce the ban; I also wonder why I bother to delay my arrival until 12.00 when it is common to see units arriving from 9.00 on on some sites; at least the C&CC has some sort of answer to this.
Clearly something went wrong in this case, but one bad site/warden/**** up would not cause me to resign my membership of either club. Both provide excellent sites and good facilities.
John's last post covers some very in depth sensitive ground, many aspects of which deserve a thread of its own.
Reading between John's lines I sense he has a feeling that most of us who post here are not happy bunnies. As he says we should look at the bigger picture and remember there are more happy caravanners who do not post than us lot here.
If we all said just how good everything was then what's the point of the forum?
Over the last 12 months, as an example both Bailey and Swift have had a bit of a drubbing. So what, it worked.
Both companies now follow this forum and have two specific members of staff allocated to try and resolve any problems, ie Kelly Watts and Kath Powell . Also I understand a lot of the comments made by members, whether moans or not are an invaluable tool for the caravan manufacturers research and development departments.
Just how many members are there on this forum?
Cheers
Alan
Reading between John's lines I sense he has a feeling that most of us who post here are not happy bunnies. As he says we should look at the bigger picture and remember there are more happy caravanners who do not post than us lot here.
If we all said just how good everything was then what's the point of the forum?
Over the last 12 months, as an example both Bailey and Swift have had a bit of a drubbing. So what, it worked.
Both companies now follow this forum and have two specific members of staff allocated to try and resolve any problems, ie Kelly Watts and Kath Powell . Also I understand a lot of the comments made by members, whether moans or not are an invaluable tool for the caravan manufacturers research and development departments.
Just how many members are there on this forum?
Cheers
Alan
we toured Scotland for 2 months,April and May this year.
Of all the sites we stayed at, the majority were C&CC.
Of these,only one actually allocated the pitch and took us to it with no choice in the matter.That was at Scone,Perth.Facilities good but the staff were a bit stuck-up and generally unhelpfull.
But the rest - 7 C&CC sites - gave us the choice of were we pitched within the limits of what we had booked.
All had excellent facilities and the wardens and staff were brilliant.
Plus,we both qualify for the age concession rates, which means we can quite often stay at a club site cheaper than at a cl/cs.
Of all the sites we stayed at, the majority were C&CC.
Of these,only one actually allocated the pitch and took us to it with no choice in the matter.That was at Scone,Perth.Facilities good but the staff were a bit stuck-up and generally unhelpfull.
But the rest - 7 C&CC sites - gave us the choice of were we pitched within the limits of what we had booked.
All had excellent facilities and the wardens and staff were brilliant.
Plus,we both qualify for the age concession rates, which means we can quite often stay at a club site cheaper than at a cl/cs.
we had the opposite at the Haven site at Exmouth booked a service pitch from Saturday in July the person on it stayed til Monday.They gave us free meal vouchers and a weekend at any time thro the year(except bank holidays) as he wouldnt move Their fault trying to get max revenue if they has said no we are off for the day and its locked up dont touch it it wouldhave been well deserved.
Hello Alan,
Actually I think a lot of good could come of seeing more positive posts on the forum.
Sites or companies that set a good example and offer good service deserve to be supported. If more people saw how diverse their choices really are, and it encourages customers to choose good organisations over less good ones, the poorer ones would start to loose ground and would be forced to revaulate their position and approach to business or to fold.
The industry as a whole would move more quickly towards an overall better standard of customer care.
Actually I think a lot of good could come of seeing more positive posts on the forum.
Sites or companies that set a good example and offer good service deserve to be supported. If more people saw how diverse their choices really are, and it encourages customers to choose good organisations over less good ones, the poorer ones would start to loose ground and would be forced to revaulate their position and approach to business or to fold.
The industry as a whole would move more quickly towards an overall better standard of customer care.
Hi John
Actually if you have been on this forum for sometime you will know that more than ample praise has been given to those parties that deserved it. Check out dealers and manufacturers and accessories etc.
Are you a C&CC warden or 5th columnist? ( I ask in the most PC way I can)
Cheers
ALAN
Actually if you have been on this forum for sometime you will know that more than ample praise has been given to those parties that deserved it. Check out dealers and manufacturers and accessories etc.
Are you a C&CC warden or 5th columnist? ( I ask in the most PC way I can)
Cheers
ALAN
John L see my post under General from 2 days ago .."C.C. Red Pennant Service" or my many posts praising PowrTouch and I don't even have one.
Where a company or club excels itself I will always give praise but where they fail in giving a service I believe others should be warned and let them make their own judgement on the severity of the incident.
Where a company or club excels itself I will always give praise but where they fail in giving a service I believe others should be warned and let them make their own judgement on the severity of the incident.
The issues of Quality and Service are very Subjective, and open to much abuse. Like in my opinion I was offered a poor trade in price recently, actually it was very good (even though I had lost
Hello Alan,
I can understand your bewilderment of my motives in my postings, For the record I used to work directly for a major oem trade supplier, where I obtained qualifications in general engineering, electronic, electrical, LPG, reliability and quality systems. But I have subsequently been an independent management consultant supporting the ISO9001 quality related standards across a wide range of business.
Whilst being involved with the OEM manufacturer, I visited most of the caravan manufactures and saw first hand the production techniques they used. We also dealt with the majority of caravan dealers, So I have had a fairly unique opportunity to see the wider caravan trade, and can now compare it many class leading business styles.
A major part of the ISO 9000 series of business models emphasises the need for organisations to understand their obligations to customers and needs of their customers. Without any doubt, the organisations that take the trouble to interact and respond to customers consistently out perform those organisations that try to distance themselves from the users of their products.
So from that perspective, yes I am a 5th columnist, but on my own crusade for fair, equitable and improving trading
From my past experience, I can see many opportunities for improvements and I feel that my personal views may be at odds with the policies of past employers, and potential clients. Thus I value my anonymity on this site, however I always try to be fair and provide balanced information that will allow readers to be better informed before taking a decision.
I am not and never have been a C&CC or CC warden, though I am a camp commandant with Scout Association.
Having laid my background out for you, perhaps you can now understand that whilst I strongly support the consumers rights, and the need poor service to be reported, it is necessary to try and offer fair view, and to that end I do wish that good or excellent service should be publicised. It sets a benchmark for others to aspire to, and it informs customers of where to go for the best attention.
I can understand your bewilderment of my motives in my postings, For the record I used to work directly for a major oem trade supplier, where I obtained qualifications in general engineering, electronic, electrical, LPG, reliability and quality systems. But I have subsequently been an independent management consultant supporting the ISO9001 quality related standards across a wide range of business.
Whilst being involved with the OEM manufacturer, I visited most of the caravan manufactures and saw first hand the production techniques they used. We also dealt with the majority of caravan dealers, So I have had a fairly unique opportunity to see the wider caravan trade, and can now compare it many class leading business styles.
A major part of the ISO 9000 series of business models emphasises the need for organisations to understand their obligations to customers and needs of their customers. Without any doubt, the organisations that take the trouble to interact and respond to customers consistently out perform those organisations that try to distance themselves from the users of their products.
So from that perspective, yes I am a 5th columnist, but on my own crusade for fair, equitable and improving trading
From my past experience, I can see many opportunities for improvements and I feel that my personal views may be at odds with the policies of past employers, and potential clients. Thus I value my anonymity on this site, however I always try to be fair and provide balanced information that will allow readers to be better informed before taking a decision.
I am not and never have been a C&CC or CC warden, though I am a camp commandant with Scout Association.
Having laid my background out for you, perhaps you can now understand that whilst I strongly support the consumers rights, and the need poor service to be reported, it is necessary to try and offer fair view, and to that end I do wish that good or excellent service should be publicised. It sets a benchmark for others to aspire to, and it informs customers of where to go for the best attention.
Hi John
Thanks for an excellent comprehensive response.
ISO9000 and 9001 as far as I could see demanded audit trails and manuals to show each stage of a production or process. It never guaranteed quality.
I have asked Nigel Donnelly to do an article on as many uk caravan manufacturers explaining their approach to quality control and how , and why, so many caravans can leave a factory with so many faults. Granted the failure rate is better than some years ago , but still not as good as say the car manufacturing industry.
On the brighter side I think you will find within this forum a number of threads where good products and good service from dealers has been voiced.
Cheers
Alan
Thanks for an excellent comprehensive response.
ISO9000 and 9001 as far as I could see demanded audit trails and manuals to show each stage of a production or process. It never guaranteed quality.
I have asked Nigel Donnelly to do an article on as many uk caravan manufacturers explaining their approach to quality control and how , and why, so many caravans can leave a factory with so many faults. Granted the failure rate is better than some years ago , but still not as good as say the car manufacturing industry.
On the brighter side I think you will find within this forum a number of threads where good products and good service from dealers has been voiced.
Cheers
Alan
My reply would have to be:
Naff awf!!!!
This from Royalty must be th definitive. Long live P Anne!
Naff awf!!!!
This from Royalty must be th definitive. Long live P Anne!
Hello again Alan,
I would love to continue this discussion, but I feel it has moved off topic for this thread.
please look in the General heading for a continuation under ISO 9001.
I would love to continue this discussion, but I feel it has moved off topic for this thread.
please look in the General heading for a continuation under ISO 9001.
Facebook
Twitter