Returning faulty Caravan

[DONNAJ]

Evening guys just after a little advice. My mother and father in law purchased a used caravan paid initial deposit in January and paid full when collecting in February. They had been away a couple of times and had holidays booked right up until sites closing for the season. Whilst away in August they lost all power. They managed to find an electrician to come out and assess the situation to which he found that the wiring had been doctored incorrectly and irresponsibly, it had melted and in turn become a fire hazard. This obviously cut all their future getaways very short. They have been in contact with the dealership and took it back and they have just thos evening emailed to say it's been fixed and they can go pick it up. They have asked for a refund as obviously they have no trust in this dealership for initially selling them the caravan which was unsafe. My mother in law is disabled and God forbid that there was a fire she wouldn't have had the speed to get out safely!
We have the report detailing what the issues were.
Is this a case for the small claims court or are we likely to be able to fight it.
Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

[otherclive]

Sorry to hear of the problems. The CRA2015 is the relevant consumer legislation. Read up about it on the Which site. Giving the dealership the chance to fix it was the right thing to do. They should not have charged you as the law allows one chance to remedy the fault, or claim a refund by rejecting the caravan. But you’ve passed that stage now as the dealership have repaired it. I assume that the dealership did not charge for the repairs. If your relatives aren’t happy keeping the caravan they could talk to the dealership about having it taken back and a cash settlement or trade in. Alternatively sell it.

Caravan electrics can be a nightmare in the way they are installed and not easy to spot changes that an owner may have introduced, and they aren’t normally checked at service. So without knowing the details the dealership May not have been aware. But they are legally responsible under CRA2015 and from your description they have fulfilled their obligations by repairing the caravan.

Which legal services give a free initial consultation and if there is a case under CRA 2015 then by paying their subscription (approx£100) there is unlimited legal advise and guidance on how to pursue a claim. But from your description it seems as if the dealership have done the right thing. If I’ve misunderstood please come back and clarify.

 

[Buckman]

To be honest I don't think the caravan can be rejected at this stage. Within the first 6 months under CRA 2015 you can request a repair or if that does not resolve the issue only then can you request a refund. You would be using S9, S10, S11 and S19 & 20.

In this case the fault was identified within the first 6 months and the dealership has rectified the issue and we can now assume everything is now working so under CRA 2015 the dealer has fulfilled their obligations.

If there is concern about the caravan, then get a report from an AWS technician on the wiring. If it is still faulty only then can you request a refund. If the dealership still rejects the request for a refund only at this point should you be contacting Which Legal Services.

We successfully rejected our caravan at 11 months by following procedures and then using advcie from Which Legal Services who are very helpful.

 

[Woodentop]

To clarify, CRA2015 allows you to return the item within 30 days. If you exceed 30 days but less than six months the fault is assumed to have been present at the time of purchase and the supplier is given ONE attempt at fixing it, thereafter you can reject it. If you exceed 6 months but less than 12 the onus is upon you to prove them the fault was present when you purchased the item before you can reject it.
One point no-one has made. You also need to read the terms of the guarantee to ensure exactly what is covered, although given yours is/was a safety issue I doubt the supplier could get out from under that easily.

 

[Buckman]

To clarify, CRA2015 allows you to return the item within 30 days. If you exceed 30 days but less than six months the fault is assumed to have been present at the time of purchase and the supplier is given ONE attempt at fixing it, thereafter you can reject it. If you exceed 6 months but less than 12 the onus is upon you to prove them the fault was present when you purchased the item before you can reject it.
One point no-one has made. You also need to read the terms of the guarantee to ensure exactly what is covered, although given yours is/was a safety issue I doubt the supplier could get out from under that easily.

The 30 days is no longer relevant in this case. Secondly CRA 2015 over rides any warranty so that is a non starter.

 

[Beardy]

Secondly CRA 2015 over rides any warranty so that is a non starter.

Not necessarily true. A warranty can offer protection over and above the CRA. The CRA allows 6 years to pursue remides for breach of statutory rights but warranties can extend beyond that, for example Kia's 7 year warranty on their cars.

 

[DONNAJ]

Thank you for everyone's reply. I'm going to leave the report below as I personally have no idea what it it's talking about and some pictures of said wiring.
So would the be well within their rights to ask for an independent inspection after said repairs have been done?
They have no intention of taking the caravan back and that was set out from the start.

 

[Buckman]

Not necessarily true. A warranty can offer protection over and above the CRA. The CRA allows 6 years to pursue remides for breach of statutory rights but warranties can extend beyond that, for example Kia's 7 year warranty on their cars.

No it does not offer any consumer protection. It is basically a contract between the manufacturer and the supplier. The consumer cannot claim from the manufacturer and needs to go through the supplier.

 

[Beardy]

No it does not offer any consumer protection. It is basically a contract between the manufacturer and the supplier. The consumer cannot claim from the manufacturer and needs to go through the supplier.

What on earth are you talking about???
A manufacturer can offer a warranty as can a retailer. Either one can exceed the requirements of the CRA. The consumer can claim against which ever party offers the warranty.

 

[Oscarmax]

Evening guys just after a little advice. My mother and father in law purchased a used caravan paid initial deposit in January and paid full when collecting in February. They had been away a couple of times and had holidays booked right up until sites closing for the season. Whilst away in August they lost all power. They managed to find an electrician to come out and assess the situation to which he found that the wiring had been doctored incorrectly and irresponsibly, it had melted and in turn become a fire hazard. This obviously cut all their future getaways very short. They have been in contact with the dealership and took it back and they have just thos evening emailed to say it's been fixed and they can go pick it up. They have asked for a refund as obviously they have no trust in this dealership for initially selling them the caravan which was unsafe. My mother in law is disabled and God forbid that there was a fire she wouldn't have had the speed to get out safely!
We have the report detailing what the issues were.
Is this a case for the small claims court or are we likely to be able to fight it.
Thanks in advance for any advice!

I am struggling a bit with this one I am assuming up and till August everything worked fine, your contacted the dealership who carried out the repair. Our you asking for a refund of the caravan or possibly the call out charge for the electrician ?

In a later post it transpires this is a 22 year old caravan was it sold with any warranty or service history ?

 

[Buckman]

What on earth are you talking about???
A manufacturer can offer a warranty as can a retailer. Either one can exceed the requirements of the CRA. The consumer can claim against which ever party offers the warranty.

That is incorrect as a warranty is in addition to CRA 2015 and does not over ride CRA 2015. However your choice deciding on which one to believe.

 

[DONNAJ]

I am struggling a bit with this one I am assuming up and till August everything worked fine, your contacted the dealership who carried out the repair. Our you asking for a refund of the caravan or possibly the call out charge for the electrician ?

In a later post it transpires this is a 22 year old caravan was it sold with any warranty or service history ?

My point is that the wiring and other issues which were clearly visible to the technician called out. Why have they sold a caravan in this state. Disregarding it's age the wiring has been tampered with and sold with the risk of fire. The wires had already melted. And they'd been out in it less than a handful of times.

 

[Dustydog]

What on earth are you talking about???
A manufacturer can offer a warranty as can a retailer. Either one can exceed the requirements of the CRA. The consumer can claim against which ever party offers the warranty.

Hang on. The absolute Holy Grail for the Consumer is the CRA2015. No Warranty on earth gives you any legal contract with a manufacturer.
The following is Kia’s advice. Even here your contract for the repair will still be with a Kia Dealer, NOT Kia.
As an aside it’s probably sensible to have your Kia looked after by an official Kia Dealer whilst the 7 year warranty is in force. Note the Dealer will be responsible for the contract.

To claim under Kia's 7-year warranty, you can:

1. Take your Kia to an authorized Kia dealer during business hours
2. Bring your warranty information and service record booklet
3. Ask the dealer to repair your car
   
   

Kia will pay for the repairs, and the dealer will be responsible for the contract.Successful claims are free for the customer.


Some things to keep in mind when making a claim include:

• Maintenance records
  You may need to provide maintenance records and receipts to show that the car has been maintained to Kia's standards.
  
  
  
  

 

[otherclive]

What on earth are you talking about???
A manufacturer can offer a warranty as can a retailer. Either one can exceed the requirements of the CRA. The consumer can claim against which ever party offers the warranty.

My point is that the wiring and other issues which were clearly visible to the technician called out. Why have they sold a caravan in this state. Disregarding its age the wiring has been tampered with and sold with the risk of fire. The wires had already melted. And they'd been out in it less than a handful of times.

Has it been repaired at no cost to you? For assurance you could have the electrician conduct an independent inspection.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,

In this case I believe from other comments in the thread the caravan is 22 years old?, and as such the manufacturers warranty would have expired a long time ago. However there could well be a dealers warranty, depending on the T&C's of the contract of sale.

But having differentiated here between a "manufacturers and a dealers warranty" I have to point out that if it had been a new caravan, the manufacturers warranty is a legal contract between the manufacturer and the customer. That is why most manufacturers warranty start with a statement like XXX Caravans Ltd herby warrant/guarantee this product against defects for a period of YYY. That is a legally binding statement and forms a contract.

The manufacturer may still require the actions associated with accessing the scheme through one of their dealers, but its the Manufacturer that owns and controls the scheme and why you have to register with the manufacturer to be able to take advantage of the scheme.

After the last time this topic arose I did some research and solicitors clearly see such schemes as contracts controlled by the T&C's

 

[otherclive]

Hello Dusty,

In this case I believe from other comments in the thread the caravan is 22 years old?, and as such the manufacturers warranty would have expired a long time ago. However there could well be a dealers warranty, depending on the T&C's of the contract of sale.

But having differentiated here between a "manufacturers and a dealers warranty" I have to point out that if it had been a new caravan, the manufacturers warranty is a legal contract between the manufacturer and the customer. That is why most manufacturers warranty start with a statement like XXX Caravans Ltd herby warrant/guarantee this product against defects for a period of YYY. That is a legally binding statement and forms a contract.

The manufacturer may still require the actions associated with accessing the scheme through one of their dealers, but its the Manufacturer that owns and controls the scheme and why you have to register with the manufacturer to be able to take advantage of the scheme.

After the last time this topic arose I did some research and solicitors clearly see such schemes as contracts controlled by the T&C's

Caravan manufacturers warranty may be as you describe but using them via anyone but the supplying dealer is a nightmare as other dealerships don’t want to know. Totally different to car manufacturers warranty. One area where the makers should step up and smell the coffee.

 

[Buckman]

On a 22 year old caravan zero warranty so that is out the window therefore CRA 2015 applies.

 

[Oscarmax]

My point is that the wiring and other issues which were clearly visible to the technician called out. Why have they sold a caravan in this state. Disregarding it's age the wiring has been tampered with and sold with the risk of fire. The wires had already melted. And they'd been out in it less than a handful of times.

Personally prior to buying I would have had a profession inspection carried out, it's an old caravan it needs to be safe and roadworthy before being used on the highway.

 

[Buckman]

Personally prior to buying I would have had a profession inspection carried out, it's an old caravan it needs to be safe and roadworthy before being used on the highway.

In addition many reputable dealers probably will not sell such an old caravan. The previous owner probably made a dog mess of the wiring.

 

[Hutch]

I think as the Caravan has been repaired, iaw CRA 2015, the dealer does NOT have to take the caravan back and give any refund.
A professional legal advisor, should be contacted.
Whatever we say on this forum is just what we have personal come across before.
As for the dealer selling the caravan with dodgy wiring, they might have plugged it in to check everything worked, then sold it.

 

[Beardy]

Hang on. The absolute Holy Grail for the Consumer is the CRA2015. No Warranty on earth gives you any legal contract with a manufacturer.

Many manufacturers offer warranties with their products and all are legal contracts. Sometimes it's easier to claim under the manufacturers warranty than exercise your CRA rights in a battle with a retailer.

When can I use a manufacturer's warranty or guarantee? - Which?

Guarantees and warranties are sometimes more generous than your statutory rights, and can give you an extra option to resolve problems with a product.

www.which.co.uk

The following is Kia’s advice. Even here your contract for the repair will still be with a Kia Dealer, NOT Kia.

Kia will pay for the repairs

Kia will pay for the repairs because the warranty is provided by them. The fact that they use Kia dealers to fulfill their warranty obligations is immaterial, they could use AA , RAC or Joe Blogs Auto Services. The contract for repair is not the warranty.

 

[Dustydog]

Hello Dusty,

In this case I believe from other comments in the thread the caravan is 22 years old?, and as such the manufacturers warranty would have expired a long time ago. However there could well be a dealers warranty, depending on the T&C's of the contract of sale.

But having differentiated here between a "manufacturers and a dealers warranty" I have to point out that if it had been a new caravan, the manufacturers warranty is a legal contract between the manufacturer and the customer. That is why most manufacturers warranty start with a statement like XXX Caravans Ltd herby warrant/guarantee this product against defects for a period of YYY. That is a legally binding statement and forms a contract.

The manufacturer may still require the actions associated with accessing the scheme through one of their dealers, but its the Manufacturer that owns and controls the scheme and why you have to register with the manufacturer to be able to take advantage of the scheme.

After the last time this topic arose I did some research and solicitors clearly see such schemes as contracts controlled by the T&C's

Thanks Prof. Guess I got carried away with CRA. The Kia 7 year warranty is a bit different from a caravan. We never signed any document with Kia. I take your advice thankyou

 

[Beardy]

That is incorrect as a warranty is in addition to CRA 2015 and does not over ride CRA 2015. However your choice deciding on which one to believe.

You said

Secondly CRA 2015 over rides any warranty so that is a non starter

I never said that a warranty over rides CRA, I said

A manufacturer can offer a warranty as can a retailer. Either one can exceed the requirements of the CRA.

 

[Beardy]

On a 22 year old caravan zero warranty so that is out the window therefore CRA 2015 applies.

Zero manufacturers warranty maybe (although I do own an item from a manufacturer who gave a 20 year warranty on their products, I believe that they have dropped it to 10 years now). There may still be a warranty from the dealer.

CRA definitely applies as any item sold, regardless of age, must be fit for purpose, of satisfactory quality etc.

 

[otherclive]

I had a Tilley hat bought in 2008 with a Lifetime Guarantee which was exchanged this summer for a new replacement but that doesn’t have a lifetime guarantee. Pity Tilley don’t make caravans.

Is this the best guarantee ever?

The other day I has washed my Tilley hat and as per the Owners Manual when it was dry I stretched the innner band over my knee to regain its size. Surprisingly my thumb went through the fabric at the front. So the hat came with a three year replacement for loss, and lifetime guarantee if it...

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