Riots

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Jun 20, 2005
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A lot of very good script on here.
In such law flouting situations , temporary Martial Law is the only swift remedy for these mindless scum bags. They need to taste real fear and get a dose of their own medicine. Two very young girls were on BBC radio yesterday saying they did it to hurt the rich. The rich for them were the shopkeepers!
I know we are supposed to be a civilised nation, we don't even have water cannon for immediate use, but the only way to deal with these scum is to remove the velvet glove and bare the iron fist. We've been far too soft for far too long.
All these liberal law abiding do gooders have had their way and it hasn't worked.
Why on earth were our Magistrates letting some of them off with a verbal. Give them a broom and shovel and make them clear up the mess they created.
As said earlier send them all on a tour of Afghanistan and see how they like that.
Finally I know this is not politically correct but I can't help feel we need Nick Kersey ( aka Charles Bronson) from the Death Wish Movies. Nothing like a good vigilante group to give these scum a fright.
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Dec 14, 2006
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The reports this morning show that not all the looters are the unemployed, benefits scroungers, or 'feral youth' - amongst those arrested were a teaching assistant, a graphic designer, someone about to join the army, a youth worker, a hairdresser, university students, a fork-lift truck driver......... and many others!
I think the lack of morality which affects feral youth is also more common than we think amongst many of the younger generation - even those who appear to be part of the working majority.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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Val A. said:
The reports this morning show that not all the looters are the unemployed, benefits scroungers, or 'feral youth' - amongst those arrested were a teaching assistant, a graphic designer, someone about to join the army, a youth worker, a hairdresser, university students, a fork-lift truck driver......... and many others!
I think the lack of morality which affects feral youth is also more common than we think amongst many of the younger generation - even those who appear to be part of the working majority.
Apparently a woman in a Currys uniform was caught looting teh currys store! IMHO jails should be made harsher to serve as a deterrent and whn sefving a sentence you have to carry out some form of work even if ti means working in a road gang! Perhaps if TVs, X-boxes and the like were removed and prisoners were shut up in their cells from 8pm with lights out at 10pm until 6am the next day without any TV and given a basic diet, maybe they would reconsider causing mayhem or re-offending.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Lord Braykewynde said:
Put the army on the streets and let it be known looters will be shot on sight. Kill a couple and it will soon stop.
Are you sure? I wouldn't be surprised if such action would result in really hardcore criminals making use of firearms, too, and then you've got an all out war on your hands. Sad as it may sound, but if they've got nothing to lose, they might even get a kick out of shooting a few police officers or blowing up a police station in retaliation. It's only a matter of time before that happens. It's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility. What I'm trying to get at is that something has got to be done to prevent the whole problem from escalating further. Be hard on them by all means, but that alone is not going to solve the problem. Resolute action on the part of the police is not going to get rid of underlying discontent. We've seen the same in the ghetto riots in LA in 1993 and in the 'banlieues' around Paris with a predominantly immigrant population. But time is not on the side of the government, just one year before the Olympics.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Seeing the results on telly and the actual footage of the nights events, I was amazed to see the amount of onlookers just casualy walking amongst the hooligans, Surely a curfew banning all people away from the hotspots, would have enabled the Police to arrest the actual looters on site.
Listening to Cameran and his side kick on TV, they have no idea what to do, about time they stood up for Great Britian and told the Euro Politicians that we will rule Britian our way, chuck the Human rights bill into oblivion where it belongs, Bring back discipline into our schools , Increase the local Police force we never see any around our area now .
Heaven knows what they are planning for next year.
 

LMH

Mar 14, 2005
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B.T.W. Lisa, if the scummies don't take meal breaks when they are robbing and destroying their neighbourhoods then why should the police expect to take meal breaks when desperate business men and women have no protection whatsoever?

I said refreshment break. Firefighters carry cases of bottled water for drinking. They are carried on the pumps along with 'hot cans'. A dehydrated Police Officer or Firefighter is not much use to anyone.

We have an Incident Support Unit which is mobilised to incidents which are anticipated to last a substantial amount of time. It has a proper toilet, rapid heating or cooling chair, a microwave and iced water and hot and cold drinks. I would hope the Police and Ambulance Service have them too.

Thanks for the clarification on the photo, another member pointed me to the site. I don't buy or read newspapers so wouldn't have seen any images in a paper.

Lisa
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Lutz said:
Maybe it would help in some instances, but punishment has never been proved to act as a deterrent against first offenders.

I'm sorry Lutz but I'm trying to fully understand this statement.
If a first offender isn't punished because it's not proved to have any affect what happens when they offend a second time? Should they be punished then and if so why would this have an affect on their future behaviour? This is bleeding heart, hand wringing Lib Dem philosophy.
As has been mentioned, this lowlife isn't disenfranchised jobless kids. They are people in employment, students etc. although there are bound to be some unemployed. It isn't even a racial problem. It's those who have no respect for anyone let alone others property. On TV they interviewed some women with their brats who tried to justify their behaviour. The same thing happened in Northern Ireland where mothers, fathers, sent their kids to throw stones or molotov cocktails at the police and army. They knew they wouldn't do anything to the kids as these feral women, women who should have been steralised at birth, send in their kids to loot. They know they are underage and they will be let off, even if it's the tenth time.
Isn't it strange that all these lowlives have smartphones to communicate with each other and are able to pay the monthly contract? Then again the phones are probably stolen in the first place.
No Lutz, we've tried the softly softly approach for too many years and any decent law abiding citizen of this country will tell you it's a failure along with politically correctness.
Finally, Mark Duggan, whose death after being shot by the police is being blamed for causing the looting (laughable if not serious) has been proved to not have fired at the police. What is also proved is this lowlife was carrying a loaded handgun. He wasn't carrying this gun just to take potshots at sparrows but was carrying it with the intention of using it, itself a criminal act. He has now paid the price and there's one less moron crawling along the streets of London. Do I feel sorry for him? Not one bit and as far as I'm concerned it's good riddance before he took an innocents life.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Maybe I expressed myself wrongly. What I meant to say is that harder punishment may prevent the odd offender from repeating an offence a second time, but it won't stop anyone from committing the first offence. I am not advocating a softly softly approach. I am just saying it won't act as a deterrent, because it doesn't get to the root of the problem. Too many think that it does because, to some extent, that's the easy bit. It's not that difficult to call in more police and get the courts to dish out severe sentences, but that's only half the answer, not the whole. I'm certainly not saying that it's the wrong answer, but it's leaving the job unfinished.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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What punishment will be handed out - the jails are overcrowded and any monetry fine will be paid by the tax payer so sho will win - I tell you who will win - it will be the moron yob that will win.

If any of these yobs are foreign then the first step by the court is to order that they be detained and deported back to where they came from and to hell with their human rights. If they are British subjects then lock them up and use them on chain gangs to improve society - make examples of them like the sherriff in Texas making his prisoners wear pink uniforms whilst working on chain gangs.
We have cowed down to the European Human Rights laws too much whilst the likes of France, etc put two fingers up to it. Perhaps the Muslims have the right idea - make the penalty fit the crime - caught stealing - cut their hand off, murder - then execute.
The Human Rights Laws were introduced by Labour and the only ones who have made anything from it are Mr. & Mrs. Blair - introduce a bill to Parliament and the wife makes a fortune.
 

Parksy

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Nov 12, 2009
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LMH said:
I said refreshment break. Firefighters carry cases of bottled water for drinking. They are carried on the pumps along with 'hot cans'. A dehydrated Police Officer or Firefighter is not much use to anyone

Thanks for the clarification on the photo, another member pointed me to the site. I don't buy or read newspapers so wouldn't have seen any images in a paper.
Lisa

If you want to get into the exact wording of what's been 'said' re the unspecified break being taken by police Lisa you will see that firefighters were never mentioned by me but the police, whether dehydrated or not, were not much use to anyone anyway when they were standing (or sitting in that particular picture) around in parts of London for the first three nights of violence passively watching homes and business premises being burned down and mobs of feral youths and children commiting robbery with violence and looting.
I blame politicians and police chiefs for this and everybody affected has a right to feel let down by the policies which have been leading up to this situation for years, especially when the majority of people strongly disagree with these policies which put the rights of criminals above the rights of the rest of us and reward a so called 'culture' which actively encourages idleness and a complete lack of morals, principles and standards.
I also wrote that the image that I posted was widely available on the internet, newspapers were not in fact mentioned in my post.
Parliament appears to be talking tough at the moment but we all know that whatever politicians say, smart alec human rights lawyers will soon be on hand with free legal aid to uphold the human rights of the criminals whilst trampling over ours so nothing will change anytime soon
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Lutz makes a valid point by saying that harsh punishment for a first offence doesn't deter repeat offenders and maybe that's true but here in the UK we are not in a position to find out.
The sad fact is that not only do first time offenders escape punishment of any kind but hardened and brazen repeat offenders are never punished to such an extent that the punishment would have any impact on their behavior or deter them in the slightest.
A criminal would have to make a real effort in order to be sent to soft soap holiday camp prison here in England and what is perceived to be low level crime such as vandalism, shoplifting, petty theft, stealing motor vehicles or taking without consent rarely attracts a custodial sentence.
Of course the people who perceive the behaviour that I have mentioned above to be 'low level criminality' are the people least likely to be affected by that behaviour and unfortunately these least affected are the very same people who make the decisions so they have no real idea of how vulnerable members of UK society feel.
 
Aug 17, 2010
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One guy I heard about got a 24 hour detention order and because he'd already spent the night in nick he was out.Afraid the politicians are hot air.Mind you, who is Cameron and his ilk to bad mouth other people with the fiddles and frauds they themselves are guilty of.A thug steals a tv worth a few hundred quid deserves prison,an MP defrauds to the tune of thousands and gets a slap on the wrists.Isnt it time parents need to take out public liability insurance,say from the age of ten,then at least when they damage other peoples property the victim doesnt end up out of pocket.
 

LMH

Mar 14, 2005
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I know you didn't mention ff's. My point was, Police Officers need to take a refreshment break. A dehydrated member of the emergency services is not much use to anyone. My other point was I wonder if the Police and Ambulance Service have incident support units too, if they did, then maybe in future, the officers could take refreshment breaks near the unit, closer to the scene of the incident, if it is safe to do so, maybe that way, no more offensive images of them sitting down and taking a drink of water could then be published, therefore, upsetting the public further.

I'm sorry I didn't read your post fully, Parksy, only scanned it, so I apologise for saying you had used an internet image and implied whatever it was you said about the papers.

I am actually impartial when the Police are mentioned, I do do some work with them and I have come across them at certain personal events and such forth. I just don't think the bobbies on the streets should be blamed when people should be looking higher up the chain.

My own personal opinion on how the rats should have been dealt with on the streets are, water canons, rubber bullets, stun guns, battons, even bring in the tanks and run them over. All fine by me. Any left standing should then have been rounded up by working German Shepherd dogs and herded into electrified cattle stalls.
Lisa
 
Mar 2, 2010
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its a waste of time punishing them,taking my grandkids to Alton Towers sets me back £100 just for tickets holigans get it for free
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14465259 I bet that really made them think about their behaviour
 

Parksy

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Nov 12, 2009
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Because the football match between Tottenham Hotspur and Everton has been postponed due to the recent unrest Tottenham's new Italian striker Grabbatelly will have to wait to make his first team debut.
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Mar 14, 2005
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I do not believe any one can deny the recent events in many of our cities have been very serious, whether we like it or not we will all be affected by them either directly or indirectly, and of course there has been the tragedy of three people loosing their lives apparently as they tried to protect people and property in their areas, and of course of the latest victim who has died from his injuries.

I offer my unreserved condolences to all their law abiding families and friends.

Personally I have not been directly affected, but two of my children have; One who lives in Birmingham, had a large gang assemble 200m away at the end of her road, and it was unknown if the gang were going to move up her road or go off towards the city centre. It seems they moved to the city sparing her home.

And my son who lives in Liverpool, who a few days before had helped to move his girlfriend out of the city for a new job, and was staying over as she settled in. On returning home found that several cars in his road had been set on fire.

A luck escape for both of them, but sadly it also means that others have suffered.

Consequently emotions are running very high, and understandably there are many questions about how and why it started, and how the authorities reacted, and who is going to pay for all the looting and destruction.

That is where we all will be affected, insurance premiums are likely to rise to cover the claims, and where insurance will not cover, and the 1886 riot act allows affected victims to claim against the local police force, we will end up paying high council tax or other taxes to cover the claims.

So the actions of the rioters (it is now officially recognised as a riot) have further devalued our whole society, damaged our international standing, and disrupted many peoples lives and livelihoods.

It is widely believed the riots were precipitated by the fatal shooting of a man by police a few days earlier. The circumstances are not clear. But it sparked much unrest and public speculation.

With such an unresolved situation, I can understand demonstrations about the incident, but I can find no justifiable reason for anyone to start to cause damage to property, or to threaten peoples safety. It seems that some people who are set on criminal activity may have used the incident as a catalyst and smoke screen to start a chain reaction of riotous events across our cities.

What was so staggering was the speed at which the incidents arose, and the diversity of locations. I have changed my mind several times about the way the riots spread and I am coming back to the strong possibility it was more than just 'copy cat' crimes but it may have involved a degree of gang land orchestration, with the view to stretch the authorities abilities to respond quickly and with sufficient numbers.

What I find encouraging is the large number of arrests the Police have made, but what is surprising is the diversity of age and occupation some of the rioters have. In some cases you would expect certain occupations to endow the person with enough social awareness and responsibility to not take up a criminal activity – but then it has been surprising to find doctors and lawyers be convicted of football hooliganism!

I am not trying to find excuses for the actions of these people, but I am drawn to the thought that our society fails to instil community values during our formative years, and the lack of these values can boil to the surface given the right stimulus.

There has been a lot of blame placed on poor parenting, and I have to agree with large proportion of that. Parents are our first teachers and role models, the foundations laid down in infancy remain with us through life, and as with any building if the foundations are poor the building will be unstable.

One thing that has struck me when viewing the scenes of the riots is how they reminded me of images I have seen from some of the video/computer games currently so popular. Are we seeing the effect of these games modifying some peoples perception of what is acceptable behaviour? Are they making the real world an extension of their fantasies? Can immature young people really tell there is a difference between theoretical pain or damage caused in a game and that caused in real life?

I have no doubt that many reasons will be offered up for the causes and mind sets of the people involved, but none of that can excuse the criminality of their actions.

Equally with the benefit of hindsight the actions and reactions of the authorities will be analysed. Failings will be found, but I personally don't think there should be a witch hunt for the heads of CPO's etc, the events that enfolded were totally without precedence and needed blue sky thinking on the hoof to try and understand and produce new strategies to mange the situations.

I am also certain there are no simple answers to what has happened or solutions to prevent it from happening again. I am also certain that we must not rush headlong into creating new legislation based solely on this one set of incidents. Care must be taken to ensure that any lessons are learnt carefully.

Earlier, some contributors compared the riots to the political expenses debeacale. In my view it is wrong to try and compare the two events. Fundamentally the rioters took lives and property, which is an entirely different ball game. Wrong doing was rife in both events and should be fully dealt with by the courts.

It was also suggested that Chief Police Officers should be elected to give them public accountability. I am personally against that as the concept for two reasons.

Firstly the job of a CPO is to police their area. That requires the person to have a skill set which frankly the majority of the electorate will not understand, and it is entirely possible the a less able candidate will be appointed.

And secondly having an election involves the candidates in producing electioneering propaganda and manifestos. Both these have enormous political overtones. We have seen from our politicians that elected representatives readily lie, and are as fickle as a chameleon.

Elections of this nature often lead to wild swings of policy and that leads to uncertainty and ineffectiveness, not to mention the costs of switching policy models.

I prefer to have an elected police board with the authority to appoint a CPO who is answerable to the authority, rather than directly to the electorate. This leads to a more consistent approach over successive CPO's. The board has the authority to remove the CPO if performance or other targets are not met.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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That is where we all will be affected, insurance premiums are likely to rise to cover the claims, and where insurance will not cover, and the 1886 riot act allows affected victims to claim against the local police force, we will end up paying high council tax or other taxes to cover the claims.
Hi John
See my original post . The Riot ( Damages ) Act 1886 allows any party suffering Riot damage to recover in full all their outlays whether insured or not subject to a notice of claim being lodged within 14 days. Yesterday David Cameron extended the notification period to 42 days.
Under the Law of Subrogation the Insurer can also seek full recovery from the Police Authorities under the Act in respect of any claim paid..
Ultimately no Insurer in this country will pay anything providing they lodge their claim with the Authorities. Thus I doubt the Insurers premiums will rise but you can rest assured your Council Tax will.
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Last night I thought I'd watch the special edition of Question Time on the riots. Mistake. As usual the left wing BBC comes out straight away with it's political bias spoken by Dimbleby. Then there's the old bruiser, John Prescott aka 'Lord' Prescott. Remember him, the person who wanted to abolish the Lords yet now he sits amongst them collecting his salary and expenses. How that lump of lard has the nerve to sit on any public debate is beyond me but even now some people believe what he speaks. This is truly a person who is morally corrupt which shows how, despite thirteen years of Labour misrule, he blames the government. His sidekick Livingstone also blames the government cuts. Left to these socialist cretins we would soon go the same way as Greece.
There were two other hand wring bleeding hearts in the ex cop Paddick and that flower pot woman whoever she was. I think she was wearing a pineapple on her head. She spoke that slow she needed winding up but what she did say didn't make sense. Now the audience. Yes the usual hand picked wets were in the majority. Those who blamed the state for the lack of inspiration the disenchanted youth have to suffer and this despite it being reported that the morons came from all walks of life and of all ages. Do we have any hope in this country if wets try to blame everyone except the lowlives? Only about three made sense and spoke the truth from the audience and their words were what the vast majority of this country felt.
Despite Davie saying they will feel the full force of the law the judges and magistrates are as usual giving unconditional discharges despite all the evidence against them. Please pass me the sick bag
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Jan 19, 2008
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Yeah! that's her
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Does she wear it for a dare?
Reading that link I can now see why the politically biased BBC invited her on. To try and push the issue that these looters were poor underprivileged kids whereas it's proved they are not.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hi Dusty,
Thank you for the detail regarding the arrangments between insurers and loacl police forces liability in riot situations, Ultimatly whether insurance premiums or council tax or other taxes increase, we - the general public - all loose out, which was the crux of the point.
 

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