Now that the vanning season has properly started, no doubt the anti-vanning brigade will soon be out with their usual criticisms. Whilst driving back from Paignton yesterday, on the M5 north at Exeter, some poor vanner had his van on it's side with his towcar (Mercedes) dangling from the towbar, across the south bound carriageway. How did it happen? - I don't know - the van was a single axle of about 5 metres length, the car was a large heavy saloon so should have been a good match. I couldn't see if there was a stabiliser fitted. There did not appear to be any other vehicle involved. Hopefully no-one was hurt. Please ensure you all have your outfits correctly loaded and noseweighted and safely matched to avoid having a horrible holiday like this poor person, and giving more ammunition to the anti brigade. If the owner of the unit reads this forum, let us know how it happened so that others can avoid this situation.
Safe Towing
- Thread starter Mike_5041089
- Start date
Like you Mike, I always wonder just how these accidents happen. I listen to Sally Traffic on Friday nights and so often we hear that another caravan has gone over on some motorway or other busy route. Could it be poor loading has caused the unit to snake? Has the unfortunate driver suffered a blow-out on one of the van's tyres? Do the caravans involved have anything in common - make, size, weight, etc. Have the vans been poorly serviced (if at all)?
It would help all of us if the police could investigate the circumstances of these unfortunate accidents and a magazine such as PC could pass on the information so that WE don't get a special mention on the traffic news in the future.
It would help all of us if the police could investigate the circumstances of these unfortunate accidents and a magazine such as PC could pass on the information so that WE don't get a special mention on the traffic news in the future.
Don't expect pc to do investigative work. Take a look at the other topic which keeps being deleted.
Most of the caravan accidents that I have seen where no other vehicle was involved occurred on downhill streches, often where the road was also exposed to crosswind. Obviously, the driver reacted incorrectly when the snake started to occur, either by trying to steer out of the snake or by holding his speed or even accelerating.
In 1990 I was traveling on the A1M and was going downhill at less than 50mph when 2 M&S Lorries passed me at speed. I then saw that my van was snaking and eventually the van hit the central barriers and that impact caused the van to take over the car and I ended up facing oncoming traffic and the van on its roof completely wrecked. the whole incident took what seemed seconds. my wife were unhurt and no other vehicles were involved. A farmer came over the field from his house and said to me that if it was any consolation caravan accidents often occurred at this point.
My car was a Audi 100 fitted with a Scott Stabiliser and the van was a Award Transtar. the ratio was less than 85% and the van was loaded to meet the nosewieght of 75kgs. My summary as to what caused the incident was that going downhill the van tends to shove the car and with 2 large vehicles overtaking at speed caused a set of circumstances which became uncontrollable.
The police who attended were not concerned about causes only about getting the road clear, which after all is one of the traffic polices main duties. I now never travel above the mandatory speed for the road I am on and go down an inclines at a speed which I feel that the car is in full control of the Van. IMHO
My car was a Audi 100 fitted with a Scott Stabiliser and the van was a Award Transtar. the ratio was less than 85% and the van was loaded to meet the nosewieght of 75kgs. My summary as to what caused the incident was that going downhill the van tends to shove the car and with 2 large vehicles overtaking at speed caused a set of circumstances which became uncontrollable.
The police who attended were not concerned about causes only about getting the road clear, which after all is one of the traffic polices main duties. I now never travel above the mandatory speed for the road I am on and go down an inclines at a speed which I feel that the car is in full control of the Van. IMHO
I experienced an excessive snake a few years ago on the downhill stretch of the M5 just passed Bristol. This was caused by an artic wagon speeding. I have heard from my brother-in-law, who has an HGV licence, that many artic drivers boast about their skills in upsetting caravaners. I now keep an eye peeled for these vehicles and express cpaches. If I see them coming up behind me I will pull to my right as far as possible to the off side lane marking forcing them out. As the are about to pass I then pull back as near to my inside as possible thereby opening up a reasonable gap between us, thereby reducing wind turbulance. This action is not 100% safe but has reduced my concerns about snaking considerabley and hopefully I will not be one of the many boasted about by artic drivers.
I hope I have not offended the majority of artic drivers who are considerate and have a job of work to do, but there is a certain element within this profession who are very inconsiderate to other road users. As always the minority spoil it for the majority of considerate artic drivers.
As a precaution, I always take my foot off the accelerator while being overtaken by any big truck or bus, especially on downhill streches. As soon as the other vehicle has passed, I accelerate back to my original speed again. I've found that this significantly reduces 'twitchiness' which can lead to a more serious snake.
I am confused by the advice we have received about avoiding
snaking! We are fairly new to caravanning - this will be our
second year with our van. We have a new caravan with
the latest towbar etc.
We have been told never to brake if a snake occurs, some
people say you should accelerate away out of the snake, but
one of your letters suggests this is wrong. My husband
always tries to increase his speed a little when a large
lorry is approaching and then eases off when it has past.
Can someone please clarify this for me. I think there should
be definite standard advice given to all new owners, otherwise
peoples safety is at risk from well meaning but incorrect
advice.
snaking! We are fairly new to caravanning - this will be our
second year with our van. We have a new caravan with
the latest towbar etc.
We have been told never to brake if a snake occurs, some
people say you should accelerate away out of the snake, but
one of your letters suggests this is wrong. My husband
always tries to increase his speed a little when a large
lorry is approaching and then eases off when it has past.
Can someone please clarify this for me. I think there should
be definite standard advice given to all new owners, otherwise
peoples safety is at risk from well meaning but incorrect
advice.
Living near the south coast ports I often see left hand drive lorries on the M3, M27, A34 etc. I have noticed on a couple of occaisions that the foriegn lorries pass VERY close to vehicles on their left hand side. On one occaision the driver of a small van was so surprized he "twitched" to the left himself and ended up partly on the hard shoulder.
Whe driving abroad I find I can drive closer to the road edge purely because being on the "wrong" side allows a better view so it could be this that makes them do it.
The thought of being overtaken that close by an artic when towing is horrendous.
Colin's suggestion is a good one re "keeping station" towards the right of your lane and being ready to ease in to the left when being passed by a big vehicle. I have done this when towing and it works. Does take a lot of concentration though.
I have also found that gentle exceleration (more just keeping the power on really) deals with a snake. I have never slowed or braked believing that this would make matters worse!
What do the experts say?
Whe driving abroad I find I can drive closer to the road edge purely because being on the "wrong" side allows a better view so it could be this that makes them do it.
The thought of being overtaken that close by an artic when towing is horrendous.
Colin's suggestion is a good one re "keeping station" towards the right of your lane and being ready to ease in to the left when being passed by a big vehicle. I have done this when towing and it works. Does take a lot of concentration though.
I have also found that gentle exceleration (more just keeping the power on really) deals with a snake. I have never slowed or braked believing that this would make matters worse!
What do the experts say?
Joy, the advice that you got was obviously from people who have this theory that by accelerating you will be pulling the caravan straight again, i.e. effectively stretching the outfit. In theory this is true but the amount of acceleration that you would need is typically much, much higher than even the most powerful car is able provide. In fact, because instability increases with speed, one would even worsen the situation by going faster. For this reason, any advice to accelerate is purely speculative and not based on any practical experience.
In practice, the only chance you have of catching a snake is to stretch the outfit the other way by applying the brakes of the caravan. This can be done actively by decellerating enough for the overrun brake to operate or passively if an electronic stabiliser is fitted either to the car or the caravan. This senses the sway and will automatically apply the brakes until stability is restored.
In practice, the only chance you have of catching a snake is to stretch the outfit the other way by applying the brakes of the caravan. This can be done actively by decellerating enough for the overrun brake to operate or passively if an electronic stabiliser is fitted either to the car or the caravan. This senses the sway and will automatically apply the brakes until stability is restored.
The Caravan Club advice to control snaking is:- 'Sit it out. This means keeping control of the steering and letting the unwanted movement damp itself out. As with driving on ice, the only solution is to get back to a steady state by minimum reaction. No over-correction of steering; foot gently off the accelerator; preferably no touching of the brake.'
They certainly do not advocate trying to accelerate out of it. If it is essential to use your brakes use them by gentle intermittent braking.
It works I know from experience.
They certainly do not advocate trying to accelerate out of it. If it is essential to use your brakes use them by gentle intermittent braking.
It works I know from experience.
I totally agree with the previous posting by Dusty.
Basically do nothing. My first days of caravanning were in the 80's when HGV's (as they were then) were delimited in speed. As a result, and the fact that the max speed of outfits in those days was 50 mph we were regularly buffetted by the wash created by lorries hurtling past us. I found that by keeping a wary eye on the offside mirror I could see when we were about to be overtaken. I used to position the 'van towards the offside of the lane I was in (assuming motorway or dual carriageway) however, immediately prior to being overtaken, I would steer the van towards the nearside of the lane. I found that in doing so, the space created by the manoeuver drastically reduced the tendency of wash the to throw the 'van around.
Basically do nothing. My first days of caravanning were in the 80's when HGV's (as they were then) were delimited in speed. As a result, and the fact that the max speed of outfits in those days was 50 mph we were regularly buffetted by the wash created by lorries hurtling past us. I found that by keeping a wary eye on the offside mirror I could see when we were about to be overtaken. I used to position the 'van towards the offside of the lane I was in (assuming motorway or dual carriageway) however, immediately prior to being overtaken, I would steer the van towards the nearside of the lane. I found that in doing so, the space created by the manoeuver drastically reduced the tendency of wash the to throw the 'van around.
Does this mean I am experienced and can tow a caravan with MTPLM that is 100% of the kerb weight of my car? I don't think I'll bother, I much prefer to stick to the 85% (or less, even) advisory formula.
The Caravan Club's recommendation that Dusty refers to is certainly better than accelerating and I agree that it is most important not to try to actively steer out of a snake. Chances are that you'll only make the matter worse. Hold the steering wheel absolutely steady regardless of what's happening behind you but moderate braking (just enough to apply the caravan's brakes) does work.
Joy, I think it would be a brave person who, when starting to snake when going downhill, presses the accelarator. I have only had one case of snaking in 20 years of regular towing and that was a old Eldiss Warwick which was a 4 berth with end kitchen, very light on the noseweight. Going over Askers Hill on the A35 coast road in Dorset the van was buffetted by a gust of wind and the van picked the rear of the car up and dropped it out of line. i was lucky because I came to an uphill section and it eased off, if I had been going downhill I think that would have been it and it would have turned over. I got rid of it as quick as I could but this Easter saw a modern van turned over at the same spot.
Just goes to show, downhill stretches and crosswinds combined with speed are the arch-enemies of safe towing even when care is taken to distribute loads correctly. It just surprises me that so many people are willing to pay up to
Joy,
Don't try to accelerate out of a snake and don't slam on the brakes. If a snake occures lift your foot off the throttle and wait for the outfit to come back into line. The best way to avoid snaking is to ensure that you are correctly loaded and keep your speed down. You may find that you are quite stable at say 55 mph (motorway) while towing on the level but you may have to reduce your speed while going downhill depending on the gradient. However it doesn't take much of a slope to induce a snake as the weight distribution of the outfit changes.
To avoid a snake when being overtaken by trucks it's better to lift off the throttle (slow down a touch) not accelerate. The problem is caused by the bow-wave of air pushed infront of the truck. After the truck is past there should be no problem.
One last thing - there have been lot's of problems while overtaking car transporters. It seems they play havoc with the air flow and create nasty turbulance which gives caravans lots of trouble !!
talking of artics on the motorways unstabling caravans.have you been behind a fully laden car transporter, interesting? i was on the m1 behind one of these and felt my out fit becoming unstable. i thought it was cross wind so slowed. great i was stable again. on approaching the said transporter again the outfit became unstable.the penny drop. the wind turbulance that these must create in their wake must be of great force.after i passed him there was no prolem. very cautious at next transporter.
Another good argument for stabilisers. This is a typical case of potential instability problems despite taking all the usual precautions for a well balanced outfit such as correct load distribution, tyre pressures, etc.
Seems to be alot of talk of speeding HGV,s causing turbulence snakes etc.I would like to know what is considered speeding as my understanding is that they have a limiter that cuts in at 56MPH,ok may manage 60MPH on a long downhill with a following wind.In my experience it seems that a lot of caravans are driven at about 40-45 MPH even on good motorways.OK so its only 10MPH less so they could stay behind you.Add some time to the journey so what.Just remember that next time the food you want,that desperately needed part for car,caravan so that you can go on holiday isn't on the shelf.Love them or loathe them you would find it difficult to live without them.So why not give them a little respect for doing a job that most people would'nt dream of.How did you new caravan get to the dealer? Teleported was it?
It does sometimes amaze me when I have seen some outfits on the roads,the expressions on some drivers faces,you can see the fear in their eyes and you just think "keep it straight,just enough time for me to get past you".At the same time you have one eye on them all the time because if they hit the rumble strip they are going to almost come into your side.You have to make sure they don't.
As regards speed I have followed a car with one of those LED speedos,Citroen I think,and his speedo was way out,I passed him on the limit of 56(tachograph is as accurate as police speedo)and his was showing 72MPH,so presumably he assumed I was speeding,but in reality he had no idea of what speed he was actually doing.May have opened a hornets nest but at the end of the day we are all only trying to do the best we can with what we have got.So use the 4x4 to pull the big van,use the small family saloon to pull the family caravan,unsure about reversing etc.There are plenty of courses and probably plenty empty spaces to practise if you ask about.
One tip I got for reversing years ago has stood me in good stead from Erde trailer to 13.6m artic trailers.Imagine that the steering wheel is taking place of the handlebars on a wheelbarrow and the trailer/caravan is attached to the top of the wheelbarrow and you have to use wheelbarrow to put trailer where you want, now use towing vehicle to do same.May take a little imagination but it gets me through a 9ft gate off normal two lane country road,at max. length.i.e with 13.6m trailer.
Only other comment is that you have to compensate for the fact that a car has extra distance from axle to towing pivot,whereas artic normally pivots just in front of rear axle,and has more rotational ability.
It does sometimes amaze me when I have seen some outfits on the roads,the expressions on some drivers faces,you can see the fear in their eyes and you just think "keep it straight,just enough time for me to get past you".At the same time you have one eye on them all the time because if they hit the rumble strip they are going to almost come into your side.You have to make sure they don't.
As regards speed I have followed a car with one of those LED speedos,Citroen I think,and his speedo was way out,I passed him on the limit of 56(tachograph is as accurate as police speedo)and his was showing 72MPH,so presumably he assumed I was speeding,but in reality he had no idea of what speed he was actually doing.May have opened a hornets nest but at the end of the day we are all only trying to do the best we can with what we have got.So use the 4x4 to pull the big van,use the small family saloon to pull the family caravan,unsure about reversing etc.There are plenty of courses and probably plenty empty spaces to practise if you ask about.
One tip I got for reversing years ago has stood me in good stead from Erde trailer to 13.6m artic trailers.Imagine that the steering wheel is taking place of the handlebars on a wheelbarrow and the trailer/caravan is attached to the top of the wheelbarrow and you have to use wheelbarrow to put trailer where you want, now use towing vehicle to do same.May take a little imagination but it gets me through a 9ft gate off normal two lane country road,at max. length.i.e with 13.6m trailer.
Only other comment is that you have to compensate for the fact that a car has extra distance from axle to towing pivot,whereas artic normally pivots just in front of rear axle,and has more rotational ability.
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