Saga letter in PC

[DeliDave_]

There is a letter from Heather Pudsey in this months PC about Saga not covering caravans over 6.98 meters long,does the lady visit this site at all as I wondered where she got her info.I have gone through the online policy document and can only find the following reference to caravans:-

Policyholder Is not covered if the vehicle
is towing for reward a caravan, trailer or disabled mechanically
propelled vehicle;
• is towing more than one caravan, trailer or disabled mechanically
propelled vehicle at any one time.

which doesn't seem unreasonable .There is also trailer cover which specifically states is doesn't refer to caravans.

I have told them I tow a caravan and had the towbar noted as an alteration.To put my mind at rest I will call them tomorrow but surely a restriction like this should be in the visible terms and conditions.I am halfway through my policy and obviously like Heather wouldn't have taken the policy had I been aware that the length was restricted.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Dave
There is no caravan length restriction on Saga insurance policies other than those normally set by towing legislation in whatever country you are towing in. Niall Hampton, the deputy editor of Practical Caravan magazine, contacted Saga after readers mentioned towing length restrictions and the reply from Saga can be seen in the News section of this website Here

 

[Surfer]

Hi Dave
There is no caravan length restriction on Saga insurance policies other than those normally set by towing legislation in whatever country you are towing in. Niall Hampton, the deputy editor of Practical Caravan magazine, contacted Saga after readers mentioned towing length restrictions and the reply from Saga can be seen in the News section of this website Here

Reading the article the gov site states;
"The Directgov website gives the 'towing regulations as 7 metres in length and 2.55 metres in width, excluding the towbar or drawbar, and this information is backed up by the National Caravan Council's Caravan Towing Guide."

Most caravans seem to have a maximum internal length of aboiut 6.44 metres whinc in essence means the caravan could be built longer like the Hobby as the front locker in a way forms part of the towbar as it is above the towbar therefore not counted. I guess the question is where does the towbar on a caravan start and finish?

 

[DeliDave_]

Thanks Steve,I rang them up first thing as I was concerned with going away for the bank holiday.The lady I dealt with checked and told me the same that basically if it was legal in the UK it was OK to tow.She was referring it to the department that dealt with problems to see if the editor could put something in the magazine to clear this up as I would not have considered Saga if I thought there was a restriction.

For Surfer I have seen some enormous and expensive hobby vans in Holland one was 42000 Euros and they all seem to fit bike racks on tha back or the drawbar without any problems.Mainly single axle as well where we would see twin axles.If the euro was a bit weaker its something I would seriously look at.

 

[papafulton]

.I also contacted Saga this morning as like other members i could not find any reference in my documents regarding this. I am waiting on someone phoning back but the opinion seems to be that there is crossed wires somewhere. Is it possible that Heather had breakdown cover included with her car insurance and this is where the 6.98 length limit applies. Hope this is clarified asap as i am away on Sunday.
William

 

[ProfJohnL]

Insurance policies are a contract between the policy holder and the insurance company. Fortunately policies are one area where the details are spelled out very preceiesly.

Provided the insured vehicles are road legal in all technical repects and the driver is licenced to drive the outfit, the insurenca company can only further limit thier liability provided the details of those limits are clearly identified in thier terms and conditions.

In other words if an insurer wishes to impose a length limit that is less than that permitted in law, they must state that fact in the policy terms and conditions.

If no restrictive limit is given in the T&C's then the insurance company cannot subsequently impose a different limit on a policy in the event of a claim

However, do not forget that insurance cover has a fixed term, and when you renew you are actually taking out a new policy and agreeing to the T&C's the company offers at the time of renewal. It seems that most car policies seem to have new or revised T&C's each year - its worth checking your policy documents each time you renew.

 

[DeliDave_]

The terms and conditions are on the website and I trawled through 33 pages i think not to find a length specified .It could possibly have been better to call SAGA before printing the letter to check the facts but who am I to criticise the powers that be. It gave me a few concerns though and I don't seem to be alone.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Deli,
As a general note:
It is worth remembering that the terms and conditions that apply to any policy are the ones that were inforce when the policy was taken enacted. I believe the codes of practice for insurance companies require the T&C's to be supplied with the policy documentation - or a specific indication of where the relevant T&C's can be found.

I state the "relevant T&C's" because it quite possible that the T&C's found on a web site may be the most recent updated version primarily aimed at informing potential new customers of what they can expect, and therfore not necesarily relevant to a policy taken out prior to the update.

As insurance is a contract, and the insurance company are essentially assessing a risk, it may be the case that they apply special clauses to a particular policy. (for example a policy holder with a history of a certain type of claim may have an additional limit imposed, in the last couple of years one contibutor to this forum claimed they had a towing ratio limit imposed of 85% because of a history of instability incidents) These may not be general clauses but specific to a particular contract, and as such they must be included in the T&C's supplied with the policy but they may not appear in the general set published on line.

The bottom line is if you have a policy, the only T&C's that apply are thoses issued with the policy documentation.

 

[henryt]

To All,
I was concerned about the letter, especially as my Saga policy expires today and is due for renewal.
I phoned Saga this morning and was advised that there is a limit of 7 metres on caravans. I then phoned the AA and received a similar reply (their limit is 23 feet which is near enough the same). I then logged onto this site and read the reply from Saga which
Niall Hampton posted. I then phoned Saga again and spoke to a different operator who confirmed that they will not cover anything over 7 metres. I expalined the difference between body length and shipping length as per their statement, however he confirmed that they will not cover anything over 7 metres in total. I am very concerned that either their staff are being misinformed or the "statement" issued by Saga is misleading.

 

[Lutz]

In the case of an important issue such as whether Saga interpret the 7m limit as shipping length or body length, talking to someone is unsatisfactory as you have no proof in hand later if there is any dispute. In particular, no-one seems to know how Saga define body length, should this be their interpretation of length. It can't be left to the policyholder to assume something which could turn out to be wrong later. Also, if you phone them you probably won't even be able to remember the name of the operator with whom you talked to.
If they say something then they should at least follow up by confirming their statement in writing. Unless you can provide witnesses to a telehone conversation, which is unlikely, written confirmation is the only evidence that you can rely on.

 

[Dustydog]

Prof John has given an excellent explanation about the policy wording.
My overall length ( shipping length) is 7.87mtrs, internal length 6.29 mtrs.
Looking at Parksy's http://www.practicalcaravan.com/news/update-saga-insurance-cover-cars-towing-caravans
it seems yet again Saga's responses are ambiguous.
The good news is that if their policy is ambiguous then under the Contra Preferentem rule judgement must be found in favour of the Insured.
As far as the law goes, rightly or wrongly I always assumed the 7 mtrs referred to the internal body length. Does anyone know for sure which it is?

 

[Lutz]

As far as the law goes, rightly or wrongly I always assumed the 7 mtrs referred to the internal body length. Does anyone know for sure which it is?

My assumption was that it refers to external body length as the internal length as I cannot imagine what relevance the internal length could have on towing conditions.
Perhaps someone has approached the DoT for confirmation?

 

[Dustydog]

As far as the law goes, rightly or wrongly I always assumed the 7 mtrs referred to the internal body length. Does anyone know for sure which it is?

My assumption was that it refers to external body length as the internal length as I cannot imagine what relevance the internal length could have on towing conditions.
Perhaps someone has approached the DoT for confirmation?

Mmm very interesting Lutz. If you are right then a lot of us towing caravans may well be doing so with invalidated motor insurance policies.
I shall take my case up Aviva as it is renewal time. They were told I towed, had a towbar and as a precauution to be disclosure compliant I even told them the make and model of my caravan. There are no written restrictions in their policy as far as I can see.
Hopefully our deputy ed can have further discussions with Saga?

 

[Heethers]

l contacted the technical department of the CC who stated that 7 metre directive was the body length of the caravan not including the draw bar, they also informed me that no British produced caravan was over the 7 metre body length all were within or exactly 7 metres to comply with British Law .Could not PC contact the caravan council for a clear directive so we can put this to bed giving us peace of mind. After talking to the CC l thought l had peace of mind but reading these posts doubts have crept back in.
NigelH

 

[Surfer]

We stopped dealing with SAGA Insurance many years ago due to misleading policies plus the fact that after the first year your insurance seemed to shoot up by about 50%. My dad has also stopped using them as he gets better quotes from other companies.

 

[Lutz]

Body length excluding the drawbar definitely refers to the external body length. However, that still leaves one unanswered question. Where does the body finish and the drawbar start? Some caravans, especially older ones, have a separate locker for the gas cylinders which is not directly part of the body. Is such a locker included in the body length or not? Whoever uses the term body length should define what it actually means or how it is to be measured. Perhaps one should ask Saga how they measure it.

 

[henryt]

Latest Update from SAGA>
Dear Sarah,
Thank you for your reply, which confirms my reading that my caravan was
being legally towed as it is of standard construction with a body length of
less than 7 metres ( 5.608m), but a shipping length of 7.194 metres.
despite explaining this to your staff on Saturday - two separate calls to
different persons, they both maintained my caravan would invalidate the car
policy as it was over 7 metres.

Unfortunately as my cover expired that weekend, I had no choice but to
arrange cover with another company which had no problems with the length of
my Bailey caravan.

Thank you for your time - however perhaps your company should consider
clarifying this matter to the caravan press and also your service centre
staff.

Regards

Henry Tobin

----- Original Message -----
From: <customer.services@customer.saga.co.uk>
To: HT
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: Fw: Saga Motoring Insurance Website Query

Dear Mr Tobin

Thank you for your recent communication regarding your Saga Motor Insurance.

I am writing to confirm our Underwriters have confirmed in the policy
booklet (page 20 General Exceptions applicable to all of the policy) shows
that cover does not apply when your caravan is:
Being towed in breach of the laws applicable to the towing of caravans that
apply in the country where the loss or damage occurs.

The Directgov website gives the towing regulations as 7 metres in length and
2.55 metres in width, this information is backed up by the National Caravan
Council's Caravan towing Guide. The vehicle towing the caravan must not
exceed 3.5 tonnes (3,500 Kilograms) maximum gross weight towing a trailer.
There is a difference between the length of a caravan and the shipping
length of a caravan. The shipping length of a caravan includes the drawbar
and coupling (tow bar). The 7 metre length referred to by Directgov and the
Caravan underwriting guide is the actual caravan length not the shipping
length.

We will not cover a caravan that is 7metres or more in length whilst being
towed, this also includes liability. We will cover the caravan when it is
unhitched for loss, theft, etc

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us via
email or by calling our Customer Services Department on 0845 366 1601,
Monday to Friday 8:30 - 5:30pm Saturday 8:30am to 1:00pm.

Yours sincerely

Sarah Dixon
Customer Service Advisor
Saga Services Limited

*********************************************************************

Saga Services Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services
Authority

TRACKING NUMBER: A00003417902-00008072569
TRACKING NUMBER: A00003412034-00008059187

-----Original Message-----

From:
Sent: 04 Jun 11 11:59:35
To: <motor.insurance@saga.co.uk>
Cc:
Subject: Saga Motoring Insurance Website Query

Saga,

Please confirm the maximum length of trailer allowed to be towed

Henry Tobin

Post on Forum of Practical caravan and reply from Saga below

To All,

I was concerned about the letter, especially as my Saga policy expires
today
and is due for renewal.

I phoned Saga this morning and was advised that there is a limit of 7
metres
on caravans. I then phoned the AA and received a similar reply (their limit
is 23 feet which is near enough the same). I then logged onto this site and
read the reply from Saga which

Niall Hampton posted. I then phoned Saga again and spoke to a different
operator who confirmed that they will not cover anything over 7 metres. I
explained the difference between body length and shipping length as per
their statement, however he confirmed that they will not cover anything
over
7 metres in total. I am very concerned that either their staff are being
misinformed or the "statement" issued by Saga is misleading.

Below is statement issued by Saga

UPDATE: Saga Insurance cover for cars towing caravans

24.05.2011
Posted by : niall.hampton
SOME READERS have contacted us regarding the terms and conditions of their
car cover with Saga Insurance.

A letter published in the July issue states that a length restriction
applies to cars towing on Saga Insurance car insurance policies, and that
towing a caravan longer than 6.98m would invalidate the cover.

After taking calls from several readers, we checked with Saga and can
confirm that there is no length restriction.

No length restriction
A statement from Saga Insurance says: "There is no length restriction in
our
Caravan policy wording. We do, however, expect the customer to drive in
accordance with the towing regulations of the country they are driving in.

"The Directgov website gives the 'towing regulations as 7 metres in length
and 2.55 metres in width, excluding the towbar or drawbar, and this
information is backed up by the National Caravan Council's Caravan Towing
Guide.

"There is a difference between the length of a caravan and the shipping
length of a caravan. The shipping length of a caravan includes the drawbar
and coupling (towbar).'"

Any Practical Caravan reader who insures with Saga and needs further
clarification should call the Saga Caravan Insurance team on 0845 366 1603.

(See attached file: AVENSSS_0.jpeg)