Sales of 4x4s

[Val & Frank]

Just read in my local paper sales of 4x4s have fallen for the first time figures out yesterday showed. Some 105196 new off roaders were sold in the first 7 months of 2006 compared with 106732 January to July in 2005.

Greenpeace spokeswoman

"it shows Britain may at last be turning it's back on climate wrecking cars as scientists warn that Global warming is a huge threat to the planet".

AA Motoring Trust Spokeswoman.

" It's a terrible shame that tax measures to encourage car buyers to look at alternatives to 4x4s have swept up large family vehicles effectively penalising people who buy wehicles that carry 50 % more passengers than the average car.

The debate over incentivising greener car use needs to be based on scentific fact, and commonsense and a somewhat more clever approach..

For instance a Land Rover Freelander diesel produces less CO2 than a two litre Volkswagen Beetle.

Disclaimer all figures are quoted and not my own.

No Comments on sales may have gone down because 4x4s last longer, so people don't need to change so often. Or 4x4s cost so much more, people tend to hang on to them for longer ??. I suppose that in taken care of in the AA comment we need a somewhat more clever debate.

Val & Frank

 

[DavidW1]

Read Carl Rodjerson "at large" in this months PC.

Hooray for someone being positive in this seemingly endless and very often pointless debate about 4x4's and the envoronment in which extremist personal agendas and misinformation abound.

In case you hav'nt read it, he talks in common sense terms about the benefits of bio fuels, recycled cooking oil and how we are and should be developing both of these further.

His theme of eating your chips and contributing to the planet is lighthearted but inspiring.

Incidentally, Subaru have just announced a new SUV - my thoughts are what a candidate for LPG or a biofuel engine and a super potential towcar - the antis no doubt saying that we need another 4x4 SUV like a hole in the head and rejoicing that sales have dropped.

 

[CliveV]

Silly Stataistics! -- We are all just waiting for the launch of the new Freelander in September!!!

LOL!!!

 

[CliveV]

Before the anti's start celebrating too hard - an even harder fact that they really hate to have shoved at them:-

This from The Guardian 11th May 2006

"Cement is one of the most environmentally hazardous materials in the world, adding more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere than the entire weight of the global airline industry. According to the Sustainable Development Commission, 4% of Co2 is caused by aviation. Depending on how conservatively you do the sums, cement-based building materials, including concrete and asphalt, account for between 5% and 10% of all carbon dioxide emissions. Finding an alternative product to cement would, therefore, make excellent environmental sense, especially if Britain is to meet the government's ambitious target of a 60% reduction in carbon dioxide emissions by 2050.

But while the environmental impact of cement production has been known for ages - Dickens described in Great Expectations "the sluggish stifling smell" of the kilns - few call for it to be punitively taxed.

Friends of the Earth, for instance, could not produce a single spokesperson to speak about cement's effect on climate change"

So there we have it - the biggest producer of CO2 in the world today and the anti's do not even want to talk about it!

But hey!! - they want to ban a useful type of vehicle and back up there augument by saying doing so will reduce CO2 emmissions.

The effect of banning just one type of car would be insignificant. Why is cement production not punitively taxed as it is the biggest single producer of CO2.

Don't let the Anti's fool you - they are not planet savers - they are rather bitter people with a biggotted agenda.

Banning 4x4's will do nothing to reduce overall CO2 emmissions - it will just pander to a whim of a dictatorial minority.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

I see you are compairing a diesel freelander to a petrol vw !!!

WHY? can you not compair like for like a freelander petrol to

the vw petrol????

If the freelander is then better, bravo they have made a great

effiecent engine.

 

[Val & Frank]

No Giovanni YOU are doing that. I only quoted the AA Trust spokeswoman. If you read it correctly it does say a somewhat more clever approach is needed. I am sure you can see that.

Val & Frank

 

[Val & Frank]

Oh and by the way should we not then be calling for a ban on all petrol vehicles ?? if a VW Beetle produces more CO2 than a diesel LR Freelander.

Val & Frank

 

[giovanni_5060838]

A good politician is great at answering questions by changing

the question asked!

Ever thought of running for parliment clive?

What are greens? REAL greens? well from what i understand they

attack everything, not just 4x4s, they attack cars as a whole.

They attack industries, they attack governments they attack

everyone who they believe is not doing their utmost to save

the planet.

So who are the greens on here? well its not me, its not you,but

you seem to want to label anyone who tries to do just a little

bit for the environment as GREENS, rather than trying to be a

little greener!

And tell me what is so wrong about trying to be greener?

trying to save our resourses? being a little more practical?

Every time someone tries to slagg down people with greener views

towards motoring we end up with statements like yours on mpg.

You try so hard to convince us that a 4x4 is better on mpg,or

a match for a 2wd, that you found the best smallest 4x4 and

pit it against the largest 2wd!!!!!!!!!!! and some will believe

you ,as you are convincing for the ill informed and you go into

politician mode. I say again same engine in a 2wd and a 4x4.

which one is the better on mpg. ANSWER. THE 2WD... FACT.

SAME APPLIES TO FRANK? EARLIER ON IN THIS THREAD.

compairing a diesel freeland to a petrol vw bettle???? what

rubbish. You have to compare like with like. And you don't.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Frank, make your mind up, is this a 4x4 debate or a petrol versus diesel debate?

If you are going to turn this into a green debate then the

freelander diesel should be compared to the freelander petrol

thats if they still make one.

And that is fare nothing else.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Oh and by the way should we not then be calling for a ban on all petrol vehicles ?? if a VW Beetle produces more CO2 than a diesel LR Freelander.

Val & Frank

not sure i can answer that one, as i have diesels and have for

over a decade

 

[Val & Frank]

Hi Giovanni

We believe we act in a resposible manner. All our cans,plastic bottles, wine bottles etc go for recycling along with any cardboard, newspaper etc. But that's not the point. The point is we need a sensible debate over all the issues. No new Nuclear power stations is a green party issue. They don't want them I do. France has something like 80% Nuclear generating capacity if a station went bang in France we would just up the shutter between us and the French coast to send the nuclear cloud back ???. All of this needs a logical debate. I have my 4x4 because I want it. Maslows theory fits me perfectly I want it I don't need it but I don't care. What I add to global warming is zilch when compared to what my local council adds to it. By way of manipulating traffic lights to cause congestion,so they can push the public transport agenda. The bus lane which is empty for 23 hours a day when traffic is nose to tail in the one other lane available.

I am ****** if I'm going to be lectured by the greens on what I can drive.

As I said yesterday it's easy to get dragged into this, having to justify yourself to some greenpeace spokeperson. Who probably went to the press conference in a company Jag.

Val & Frank

 

[CliveV]

Hi Giovanni

I see that rather than responding to the real issue - that ot greenhouse gases - CO2 in particular and the huge amounts produced by cement production - you, just like the Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace etc - seem to have nothing to say.

Instead you take part in some silly displacement activity and use a smoke and mirrors augument about a diesel Freelander vs. a VW beetle!!!!!

Please do not confuse us with politicians - they may listen to the anti car anti 4x4 prattle because they are grubbing arround for votes - but the rest of us want a sensible debate on the real issues - and whilst that obviously must include cars, the debate cannot possibly by sidelined into a car type bashing diatribe by those with a hidden agenda.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Like i said clive, you would fit in well with our politicians.

You have the ability to turn direction quicker than an F1 car!

You mention cement, well at least that sets in place.

yes read you post 10% was it or something like that [max]

Firstly i wonder what this has to do with the 4x4 sales debate.

{i remember you ability to change a topic back and forth to suit

yourself}

Where was i 10% max, i see where you are coming from, if we were

to stop using cement and asphalt, yes thats right we would all

need to own 4x4s, because there would be no proper maintained

roads.

now what i do really want to know is 10% max for cement and 5%

for aviation, that leaves 85%, cars is 3%? so what about the

other 82%. i mean you have shown your concern maybe you could

fill the rest out for us.

And don't forget the argument that America, china, and india are

the worlds largest polluters, and whatever we do here is really

such a small % that you have to wonder why anybody bothers.

There is a silly saying. look after the pennies and the pounds

will take care of themselves.. We car owners are the pennies,

the whole idea is that you start small and it grows, so its cars

now, and in the future the cement, aviation fuel, industries

will follow....... thats the piont you seem to want to miss.

 

[CliveV]

By far the biggest source of greenhouse gases is the flatulance of farm animals.

I cannot tell everyone out there the fun i am having right now penning responces!

But controlling myself as a true professional -

As for the cement point - I cannot believe you have said what you just have Gio.

Could you go back and re-read the article from the Guardian - which incidently is not "my post" but taken from the newspaper article which criticises the Friends of the Earth for focusing totally on a relatively minor point re CO2 emmissions.

If you knew what you were talking about Gio you would know the relationship between CO2 emmissions from vehicles, from aircraft, from vegitation and indeed from cement production.

 

[benny1]

By far the biggest source of greenhouse gases is the flatulance of farm animals.

I cannot tell everyone out there the fun i am having right now penning responces!

But controlling myself as a true professional -

As for the cement point - I cannot believe you have said what you just have Gio.

Could you go back and re-read the article from the Guardian - which incidently is not "my post" but taken from the newspaper article which criticises the Friends of the Earth for focusing totally on a relatively minor point re CO2 emmissions.

If you knew what you were talking about Gio you would know the relationship between CO2 emmissions from vehicles, from aircraft, from vegitation and indeed from cement production.

i hoped this was a caravan forum can someone let me know of a good one

 

[giovanni_5060838]

By far the biggest source of greenhouse gases is the flatulance of farm animals.

I cannot tell everyone out there the fun i am having right now penning responces!

But controlling myself as a true professional -

As for the cement point - I cannot believe you have said what you just have Gio.

Could you go back and re-read the article from the Guardian - which incidently is not "my post" but taken from the newspaper article which criticises the Friends of the Earth for focusing totally on a relatively minor point re CO2 emmissions.

If you knew what you were talking about Gio you would know the relationship between CO2 emmissions from vehicles, from aircraft, from vegitation and indeed from cement production.

listen clive, you posted the guardian topic, all i asked was

for the rest of the info!!!!!

It should have been obvious to anyone that i asked because i had

not seen it.

So there is really no piont in your later statements.

But yet again you answer nothing. the true politicians...

 

[CliveV]

Here we go again

giovanni

16 Aug 2006 03:42 PM

listen clive, you posted the guardian topic, all i asked was

for the rest of the info!!!!!

It should have been obvious to anyone that i asked because i had

not seen it.

So there is really no piont in your later statements.

But yet again you answer nothing. the true politicians...

Gio - I gave you the ref - but you can have it again -

"THE GUARDIAN - 11th MAY 2006"

You really cannot expect people to spoon feed you.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

That reference is not much help, i have already tried it, you

need a little bit more than just the date.

 

[CliveV]

Just google it

 

[CliveV]

Gio - if you are still struggling

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,1771589,00.html

 

[giovanni_5060838]

i have, i have used the date and put in cement.

I do know a little bit about it, they are trying to get building

companies to use lime? instead of concrete in the uk because

its greener, This must have come from people who think green?

only problem is its one hell of a long job to get it to set....

this makes it far too expensive a process to use.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

thank you clive, i have now read it, am no the wiser about you

concerns of the greenpeace group, have i missed something? or

are you reading between the lines?

 

[CliveV]

The article specifically mentions "Friends of the Earth" - not Greenpeace.

My thoughts on Greenpeace are that roaring about on high powerred inflatables is hardly a eco friendly activity.

Niether is getting Shell to break up a storage platform when it would have been better to have left it intact. Breaking it up released more poutants and used far more energy that what Shells own enviromental team had wanted to do.

But Greenpeace won the day and the environment suffered at the hands of people who are so damn sure that they are right.

 

[CliveV]

Gio - Lime is used in cement production and is produced from Limestone thus releasing CO2

The CO2 from the heating process is a quite separate source of pollution.

As part of the cement producing process Limestone (CaCO3) is converted to Lime (CaO) and CO2

CaCO3 > CaO + CO2

So hopefully you can see why cement production is SUCH a major problem when it comes to CO2 emmissions - not only does it emit CO2 from the energy it requires to heat the process, but the very process itself produces more gaseous CO2 that would be otherwise locked up in Limestone!.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

LMAOOOOOOOOOO its in this thread too.