Servicing gas appliances

[Buckman]

Many people are under the mistaken idea that when a caravan is serviced the gas appliances are also serviced. This is an extra charge. The only thing regarding gas that should be done on a service is that there should be a pressure test on the gas system to check for any leaks.

However if you have no issues with any gas appliances and flame is burning blue correctly, how often should the gas appliances in a caravan be serviced? I would guess that a lot depends on how often you use the caravan. I know a few years ago it was about £35 extra to check and clean the appliances. No idea of cost currently.

 

[Damian]

The only thing regarding gas that should be done on a service is that there should be a pressure test on the gas system to check for any leaks.

Wrong !!!!

However if you have no issues with any gas appliances and flame is burning blue correctly

Wrong !!!!!

Now let me explain.
In days gone by it was thought that gas appliances should be stripped down and fiddled about with, but that tended to create more problems than it solved.

Come up to date and the now almost universal use of flue gas analysers removes the need to fiddle about with the appliance, and save the owner unnecessary costs.

During a "service", not only should a pressure test be carried out but all the gas appliances should have their flue gas analysed and if that is within the very strict limits then no more action is required apart from removing any dust and debris around the appliance.

As far as blue flame being OK, it is not.
All that tells you is that the appliance is lit, nothing else.

One may be wondering about the cooker and flue gas analysis, well, there is a special probe which I use which samples the output of each burner , the same is also used for the oven and grill.

As far as how often should appliances be serviced, then that depends on the results of the tests or the appliance makers recommendations.

Cost is something that depends on what , if any , parts are needed plus the time to remove old and fit new.

Whilst not caravan related as such, take British Gas and their "service",,,,last time I had my house boiler "serviced" the engineer came in, stuck the flue gas analyser in the test port, sampled the flue gas, removed the probe, closed the port, shut his bag and left,,,,,,,,,that will be £95.00 thank you !!!!

 

[Buckman]

Apologies I meant to say that on a service the dealer only do the gas pressure test and do NOT service any of the gas appliances.
As far as I am aware at a service the dealer has only done the gas pressure check and never checked the flame on the gas appliance. I have been told by the dealer that this is a charge as it is an "extra". On the service sheet there is no "tick" box reagrding anything else for gas testing of appliances.
I thank you for the detailed breakdown as it is appreciated. Obviously this does not happen in many cases unless you pay the extra.

 

[RogerL]

Apologies I meant to say that on a service the dealer only do the gas pressure test and do NOT service any of the gas appliances.
As far as I am aware at a service the dealer has only done the gas pressure check and never checked the flame on the gas appliance. I have been told by the dealer that this is a charge as it is an "extra". On the service sheet there is no "tick" box reagrding anything else for gas testing of appliances.
I thank you for the detailed breakdown as it is appreciated. Obviously this does not happen in many cases unless you pay the extra.

The 3 mobile technicians I've used all did more than just a gas pressure test - as well as visually checking flames, they checked the operation of all the gas failure devices - that may not amount to a full appliance service.

One AWS dealer failed to do a gas pressure test after a warranty repair on the cooker, during which the gas union wasn't tightened, allowing gas to leak - fortunately that dealer's no longer in business.

 

[Damian]

As far as I am aware at a service the dealer has only done the gas pressure check and never checked the flame on the gas appliance. I have been told by the dealer that this is a charge as it is an "extra". On the service sheet there is no "tick" box reagrding anything else for gas testing of appliances.

I understand what you are saying, and unfortunately I understand what the dealer has told you, which is where the system fails caravan owners and the difference between using those who are only very basically trained in gas and its quirks and those of us who are fully Gas Safe and take safety to be the most important part of any work done on gas systems.

It really annoys me that some so called engineers put a price on what is a necessary check, but sadly many do not want to spend the thousand pounds plus annual calibration of an analyser.

It is similar with One Shot Nuts, they must be replaced when the hubs are removed but people get charged for the nuts as a separate item, when the hub cannot be fitted without them !!!!! they should be included in the service price.

 

[Jcloughie]

I find this topic informative and worrying at the same time. I have just viewed 3 checklists.

1. 2. 3.

None of them mention a check on the flue gasses. So as Damian says, (I think), not all service centres do this. Is it down to cost of training and calibration.

I have a lot of respect for my mobile engineer, but I don't know if he does this.

Perhaps it’s a question we would be wise to ask in future.

John

 

[Buckman]

Damien I think your post is very informative and extremely helpful as it has certainly opened my eyes to malpractive by dealers. Our caravan is currently in for service so when we collect it, definitely will be querying.
Is there any chance whatsoever that your post could be made into a sticky as it woudl be very helful to existing caravan owners and also newbies and it is a matter of safety?

 

[JTQ]

"However if you have no issues with any gas appliances and flame is burning blue correctly"

"Wrong !!!!!"
"As far as blue flame being OK, it is not.
All that tells you is that the appliance is lit, nothing else."

Firstly lets accept that having a gas analyser is good but it is wrong to think of it as some "gold standard", even the day after recalibration.
It is IMO wrong to dismiss flame colour so summarily.
The flame colour used correctly actually is exceedingly informative for LPG combustion, not to be dismissed as telling nothing else than being lit. The blue indicates the burn temperature, a very critical factor in combustion.

First it was stated "burning blue correctly".
Shame that was not qualified stating what "correctly" actually meant, but lets assume it mean burning with" just a blue flame, no hint of yellows or oranges but blue throughout".

LPG burning with the colour blue temperature throughout ( in the higher 1900s C), so is 100% combusted or otherwise it would have those yellows etc witnesses of lower burn temperatures and so incomplete combustion. Incomplete combustion being really bad news.

So in a way relying on the physics of combustion, assuming you are not colour blind has to be more reliable than accepting the analyser is in calibration.
Do both but don't rely on the analyser being right.

Now that's very different to saying if there are other colours the combustion must be wrong, though it still remains it must be right if it is blue throughout. Traces of sodium, a boiled over pot etc can cause its own yellow hints and this can endure long after the event, even though the LPG is 100% burnt.
If there is anything other than blue throughout, you need to be very guarded.

Just keep an eye on the flame colour, it might be 11 months till it is service time again.

 

[otherclive]

An erudite magazine gave an interesting article on what to expect from an AWS service. Flue gas analysis was included.

AWS service article 2018 in PC.

 

[Dustydog]

PCV mag last year made this statement in an article. My mobile engineer does the same job and it is featured on his check list.

• Gas systems
  A manometer checks for leaks in the gas supply system. All gas appliances, such as the oven, fridge, heating system and water heater, are turned on in order to check that they are working properly. All vents will be checked to see if they are clear. Then all appliances are turned off at the gas isolator taps. The Flame Failure Device (FFD) should then cut in, meaning that the check has passed. The CO (carbon monoxide) Room Test requires all gas appliances to be turned on. At the same time, a Flue Gas Analyser runs for a minimum of 15 minutes with all doors and windows closed.

 

[Jcloughie]

An erudite magazine gave an interesting article on what to expect from an AWS service. Flue gas analysis was included.

AWS service article 2018 in PC.

Fron your link:

”The CO (carbon monoxide) Room Test requires all gas appliances to be turned on. At the same time, a Flue Gas Analyser runs for a minimum of 15 minutes with all doors and windows closed.”


Interesting, what I find odd is that there is no tick box on the checklists I referred to above for either of those tests.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

... it has certainly opened my eyes to malpractive by dealers. ...

It would only be "malpractice" if the the dealer or technician claimed it was a full gas appliance service.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I find this topic informative and worrying at the same time. I have just viewed 3 checklists.

1. 2. 3.

None of them mention a check on the flue gasses. So as Damian says, (I think), not all service centres do this. Is it down to cost of training and calibration.

I have a lot of respect for my mobile engineer, but I don't know if he does this.

Perhaps it’s a question we would be wise to ask in future.

John

Non of those checklists suggest they are "servicing" the gas applainces, they are only doing a functional check.

 

[Dustydog]

Non of those checklists suggest they are "servicing" the gas applainces, they are only doing a functional check.

The problem for me Prof is the “caravaner in the street “ relies on the validity of these statements. Service is a broad word. This has set me thinking.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The problem for me Prof is the “caravaner in the street “ relies on the validity of these statements. Service is a broad word. This has set me thinking.

How often do we see similar disconnects between what people expect and what they actually get. A lot of these situations come out for the increase in regulatory requirements that professionals have to follow, either to meet the regulations or to protect themselves from contractual challenges.

A lot of the problem is the English language (Other languages are available) is continually changing and words in common usage come and go and often change their common meaning, If some one tells me "Your dog is bad" I apply the dictionary meaning of the word bad, but the person saying it is of an age where it is used to imply the direct opposite.

We see it on this forum where contributors may use a word, acronym or phrase that seems common to them but not understood by others.

Another example that is commonly used in caravanning parlance the Butane gas "freezes" around 0C. It doesn't - it stops boiling.

Most vehicle specifications should now be quoted in the units defined by the SI system, Kilograms are an expression of Mass not weight, which should be expressed as a force of Nm, Power should be Kw, not Hp and so on......

Where language is used in documents it is best to assume it refers to the strict dictionary definitions rather than the colloquial usage. Or check with person using the document.

 

[Jcloughie]

Non of those checklists suggest they are "servicing" the gas applainces, they are only doing a functional check.

Absolutely right. But the whole thing is called a service. Just checked my engineers service schedule. out of 63 items 59 say check. The others use adjectives like adjust, clean and torque.

John

 

[Dustydog]

“Car service”.

I am sure Prof you would expect quite a few things to b ecompleted?

 

[otherclive]

Absolutely right. But the whole thing is called a service. Just checked my engineers service schedule. out of 63 items 59 say check. The others use adjectives like adjust, clean and torque.

John

Bit like that on modern cars. 90% is check. But if there’s no action required what else can you do? I have spent many hours just touching running machines and looking at gauges to check that things were okay. If not then further investigation would be required. Checks are not a bad thing if carried out by an experienced competent person.

 

[Dustydog]

On that basis Clive I accept I will be happy until next years service.

 

[Jcloughie]

Bit like that on modern cars. 90% is check. But if there’s no action required what else can you do? I have spent many hours just touching running machines and looking at gauges to check that things were okay. If not then further investigation would be required. Checks are not a bad thing if carried out by an experienced competent person.

I wonder how it would go down if you said the van was going for it’s yearly ‘checkup’. 🥴

Yet, you would hardly say you were going to your doctors for a service!

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

There has been a lot of work done in various engineering circles to evaluate the effectiveness of the service schedules. Traditionally most schedules were simply based on a fixed calendar interval. For some items it fails to take into account the differences between the way a a specific unit has been used or has worn compared to all others and can lead to unnecessary work and costs.

In the absence of monitoring systems that tell you when a system is deteriorating, it is necessary and sensible to conduct inspections, at which a number of key points should be checked to assess the condition of the appliance. With modern test equipment and techniques the function of the appliance can be safety checked and verified, and only if there is evidence of deterioration beyond a predetermined safety level should it be necessary to strip down/service a gas appliance.

This is akin to the process we all use for tyres and brakes pads and shoes. We don't automatically change them on a specific date set in advance, only when their condition requires it.

 

[otherclive]

I wonder how it would go down if you said the van was going for it’s yearly ‘checkup’. 🥴

Yet, you would hardly say you were going to your doctors for a service!

John

I guess its just common parlance and understanding. What would we want them to do? Strip things out that are perfectly satisfactory and then put them together again only to find they don’t work. It’s nothing new on cars or caravans as it’s been a developing trend for some years now. My Volvo 245 estate cost a fortune to have serviced as it was like the proverbial broom, but still wasn't reliable.

 

[Buckman]

It would only be "malpractice" if the the dealer or technician claimed it was a full gas appliance service.

If the gas check is part of the service and is not done then surely it is malpractice or fraud as you are being charged for somehting that has not been done?

 

[Buckman]

There has been a lot of work done in various engineering circles to evaluate the effectiveness of the service schedules.

I alwasy thouhgt that service schedules were decided by the bean counters to generate profit for the company? After all what does an engineer know about costs?

 

[otherclive]

I alwasy thouhgt that service schedules were decided by the bean counters to generate profit for the company? After all what does an engineer know about costs?

That’s probably why some cars have extended service intervals as then they show better in the Fleet Running cost tables and makes them attractive for the first three years. Had a lady work for me and she presented her Skoda Octavia for first MoT on the due date. It had never seen a garage before that MOT. She genuinely thought as she’d not done 20k miles she was okay.