So would it be best to give every house its own wind turbine, solar panel with a couple of ex Tesla batteries and a composting toilet with attached biogester. 🤣
Hi Clive don"t mind wind turbine solar panel and ex tesla batteries but i give the toilet composting a miss thanks
Last edited:
I think while there is academic interest in energy distribution the important factor for us is how well we all use what's delivered to us and in this respect efficiency of appliances is important. However, equally important is how these appliances are utilised to get the maximum benefit, which results in the lowest operating costs.
Consider that a Microwave is probably about 50% efficient. 1Kw in for 500 watts out. Compared to an electric oven which is going to be close to 100%. But for certain things you can cook them faster in a microwave than in a conventional electric oven, hence the cost is lower.
As another example an electric immersion heater will deliver close to 100% of its energy into heating the water. But if we heat 50l of water when we only need 10 then it's not an efficient system as the remaining water will then cool down and have to be reheated.
So not just the individual effeciencies but the overal system efficiency needs to be considered.
Consider that a Microwave is probably about 50% efficient. 1Kw in for 500 watts out. Compared to an electric oven which is going to be close to 100%. But for certain things you can cook them faster in a microwave than in a conventional electric oven, hence the cost is lower.
As another example an electric immersion heater will deliver close to 100% of its energy into heating the water. But if we heat 50l of water when we only need 10 then it's not an efficient system as the remaining water will then cool down and have to be reheated.
So not just the individual effeciencies but the overal system efficiency needs to be considered.
Actually not a bad idea, but lithium batteries are probably better than any Tesla battery. If they were able to use the wind to generate power to a home in South Africa over 50 years ago using small windmills with our modern 1st world technology it should not be a problem.
Some years ago a neighbour fixed a wind turbine to his gable, about 3ft diameter. It didn’t last long. Too noisy and it shook the whole house.
John
John
The ones I saw in SA had a circumerance of about 3 foot and were normally on a small lattice mast. Charged a few batteries and only lights used for electric. No need for heating except for hot water which was normally done with gas. The alternative was wood in a burner for the hot water.
The concept of thermal capacity is often neglected when property heating is being designed. Insulation is easy to understand. But in ideal circumstances both go hand in hand.
As an example. Consider an old property with solid, uninsulated walls. The only heating is an open fire. Come winter, the fire is lit. Very little heat is felt for about 4 days. Very inefficient in many ways. But most of the heat is absorbed into the breast. This mass holds a considerable amount of heat which then helps to smooth out the yo-yo effect.
To compare that to a modern well insulated property. Probably dry lined on insulting blocks then a cavity possibly insulated. Now there is only the air to heat up which is comparatively easy. So easy‘ish to heat, but cools quickly. (yo-yo).
Ideally, the internal walls need to be heavy construction for good capacity, with good external insulation.
This is well known and documented. The problems are twofold. Wall thickness taking up precious land. and cost.
Consequently, new builds are a compromise. And insulating older properties is not as easy (except for the obvious loft and windows), as many think.
John
We had an old cottage in Dartmoor. It was two knocked into one and comprised the end of a row of miners cottages. We had a coal fire at the “detached” end of the cottage and in our dining room we had a gas fire built into the original chimmney, which also since we adjoined the next door property served as their chimney too, but the chimneys serving each were of course seperated. That is until stones started to fall out. But when the neighbour lit their coal burner it warmed our dining room and the wall of the bedroom above. Similarly the coal fire in the lounge not only heated the lounge but the end wall of the main bedroom too. So in winter both ourselves and our neighbours tended to keep the coal fires going pretty well continuously so the gas central heating was only used for those rooms not benefitting from the large areas of warm walls heated by the coal fires. It was very cosy, with endless supplies of hot water.
Last edited:
Thank you for your more detailed explanation. I agree, and its a concept that has been previously discussed a long time ago concerning the thermal mass of a caravan vs thermal mass of the air and its been compared to domestic properties.
My new build flat is extremely well insulated, in fact too well for my liking. It has taken literally weeks to get the average temperature down after the summer heatwaves. Even when the temperatures dropped you could fling the windows open at night and get down to a sensible 21 degrees, shut them at bed time, back to 25 / 26 by the morning, even when it’s only 18 out. And I’m ground floor, I dread to think what it’s like upstairs. Finally got down to about 21 and planning to hold off the heating for as long as possible.
Candles are now in short supply, Calor gas and paraffin heaters are in high demand. We purchased two hot water bottles and throw overs , gas heated kettle. Good old diesel fuels my car . We‘ll be ok🤪.Still have a gas hob so will enjoy hot food when the electricity fails.😁😁
We are volunteers taking a large number of single elderly people to the local day centre. Many have lived in their homes for decades. Gas , paraffin coal primarily provides their heat and hot water. I am sure there are many others around the U.K. in the same position. Please remember those who are old, poor and cannot be “green”!
In my opinion, all new houses renovations or extensions should be built to much higher insulation standards. In theory it is possible to so well insulate a property that the people inside are enough to to keep it too warm for comfort. There are some difficulties achieving that level of performance because you need to have some air exchange to allow them to breath, but with effective heat exchangers it is possible to minimise heat losses through ventilation.
The other problem that chris the caravanner has alluded to is too much heat gain and retention. We need to take some lessons from Arabic house design where in hot conditions the house can create a strong natural convection circulation to allow over heated air out.
The other problem that chris the caravanner has alluded to is too much heat gain and retention. We need to take some lessons from Arabic house design where in hot conditions the house can create a strong natural convection circulation to allow over heated air out.
Our approach during hot weather is to close the house down. Blinds and curtains closed as well as doors and windows. When we get up it’s opened up to let cooler air in, then the same in the evenings. Also at night the loft opening is raised to allow warmer air to exit the landing where the hot water tank is located.
Last edited:
We took the hint from France and Spain. We now do the same as above and it works for us like during this past summer. Why open windows to let hot air in?
As for the winter we have always had a small gas camping stove and two Campinggaz lamps. If it gets too cool, we have the gas heater as a backup and we run for about 20 minutes at a time just to bring up the heat again. We would never run the gas heater continuously.
We too have a couple of small gas camping stoves which are available for emergency use should power be out for a longer period. Plus led chargeable lamps with 8 hours output when on low and several torches too. Fortunately not had to use any of the backup kit for many years.
We've had similar conversations of this topic before.
You're correct - there is much more that could be done to make houses etc more energy efficient by adding more insulation and controlling airtightness.
Some years ago Building Regs were upgraded - certainly in terms of air tightness - and new builds are supposed to be tested for compliance. However, the house building industry has a poor reputation for quality control and from experience of new builds on my daughters estate, houses are being constructed with little insulation and no consideration to air tightness. We saw houses being constructed with no cavity wall insulation; little consideration of insulation in floor slabs; low u spec windows which were just about compliant but came with trickle vents; very cheap MVHR systems and no test certificates despite asking for them.
But its not just the building control. The process has to start on the drawing board.
Strangely enough houses built for local authority social housing needs tended to have better specs than those buildings sold on the open market
Again from experience of my daugters house and of one we rented for a while on the same estate - they were freezing cold in the winter which was hard to belive considering they were new builds.
One of the problems with increasing insulation and improving air tightness is that this comes at a cost and contstruction companies want maximum profit for minimum outlay and to build something that sells easily.
I have friends in Germany that had a house building company. I asked them about Passiv Haus which is a German standard which calls for high standards of thermal management. While they had heard of this they said there was little interest because house prices for this type would be higher than people would be prepared to pay.
Hello Sam,
I understand there are several standards for domestic housing and asl always there could be a debate about which is better etc... but the critical point is the Government could but aren't pushing the building industry (design and construction ) hard enough to drive up insulation.
It's interesting to see how Gov't legislation can affect manufacturers efforts to improve, Just as an example the 2030 ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel ICE vehicles, has stimulated industry to make some quite incredible progress in developing new electric vehicles.
If the same technique was applied to the building industry regards the requirement for insulation, you can be sure insulation manufacturers would be making similar improvements, which could be just economies of scale, but also research into making new insulation products which are better and cheaper. as will teh actual construction of builds to take advantage of the materials.
As a consequence the additional cost of a properly insulated property may not be as much as first thought. But it gets better becasue as fuel costs go up the pay back time of insulation could be much shorter. Just as a thought, if a new super insulated property did cost £10K more (and that's a lot of insulation), the savings could pay it back in about 5 years or less.
ADDENDUM
The other real benefit is the reduction in fuel used and the advantage that brings to the environment.
I understand there are several standards for domestic housing and asl always there could be a debate about which is better etc... but the critical point is the Government could but aren't pushing the building industry (design and construction ) hard enough to drive up insulation.
It's interesting to see how Gov't legislation can affect manufacturers efforts to improve, Just as an example the 2030 ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel ICE vehicles, has stimulated industry to make some quite incredible progress in developing new electric vehicles.
If the same technique was applied to the building industry regards the requirement for insulation, you can be sure insulation manufacturers would be making similar improvements, which could be just economies of scale, but also research into making new insulation products which are better and cheaper. as will teh actual construction of builds to take advantage of the materials.
As a consequence the additional cost of a properly insulated property may not be as much as first thought. But it gets better becasue as fuel costs go up the pay back time of insulation could be much shorter. Just as a thought, if a new super insulated property did cost £10K more (and that's a lot of insulation), the savings could pay it back in about 5 years or less.
ADDENDUM
The other real benefit is the reduction in fuel used and the advantage that brings to the environment.
Last edited:
To design and build an efficient house that was green and promoted healthy living is fairly easy. but ridiculously expensive. The solutions are to find the right compromise.
BR, either Scottish or the rest of the UK, are cleverly written to allow for inovation to meet minimum standards. Although those standards could perhaps be more stringent. I don't believe that that is the crux of the problem.
The full understanding of those regs by those who either should work to them, or enforce them, is not good.
Therefore, the control of those regs can be poor to very poor. And the poorer contractor will cut corners and hide what they can . On the bright side, regs, conformity, and quality are all very much improved since I was building in the 60’s and 70’s. This included some years work in Germany, which had a completely different approach to control. Which produced higher standards than here for the most part. But then I was only involved in building luxury houses. As here, I experienced much corruption in the German model.
John
BR, either Scottish or the rest of the UK, are cleverly written to allow for inovation to meet minimum standards. Although those standards could perhaps be more stringent. I don't believe that that is the crux of the problem.
The full understanding of those regs by those who either should work to them, or enforce them, is not good.
Therefore, the control of those regs can be poor to very poor. And the poorer contractor will cut corners and hide what they can . On the bright side, regs, conformity, and quality are all very much improved since I was building in the 60’s and 70’s. This included some years work in Germany, which had a completely different approach to control. Which produced higher standards than here for the most part. But then I was only involved in building luxury houses. As here, I experienced much corruption in the German model.
John
I agree and with rising energy costs the economics for the nation is a no-brainer. However, the priority for housing is to build as many as possible, and especially low-cost housing. Developers are being forced to build a lot of houses free for the LA. We want a lot, and we want them now and we want them insulated. We have a 50+ yr old house and have done all we can to insulate it, but with uninsulated solid ground floor, we can't do much about that.
But why is it "ridiculously expensive" designing to include good insulation shouldn't be expensive, and the insulation its self is not massively expensive either, It really shouldn't be prohibitively expensive to build far better insulated homes.
I spent sometime in northern BC Canada, and observed several new properties being built, their costs were not excessive, yet they were far better insulated than here in the UK. I dont think its material costs that are the problem, it's the building companies that don't want to change embedded practices. It needs legislation and regulations to change to drive the process. And as you say it needs those who monitor the planning and building control to up their game to enforce the performance of builders.
Lots of insulation does suffer from fire risks. And, polystyrene based products also give off many types of toxic fumes. But. in this country it mostly comes down to housing density. We try to build exterior walls around 260 mm. So very difficult to fit in structural stability and thermal efficiency which is anywhere near the desired ideal.
Canada is not as restricted on land use.
Straw bails actually work very well, And not with the expected fire risk. But with problems of thickness and thermal capacity and safe height.
We don't have lots of standards to work to. Just the Building Regulations. (Scotland has their version). Excellent legislation with legal support. Meeting that minimum specification does not happen as it should for sure. Exceeding them is very possible and desirable. But cost and the need for greater housing stock get in the way.
Much does come down to design cost, build quality, poor training, and quality control. However. We often hear about the excess of sheep's wool. Evidently, farmers have trouble disposing of it. One would think that that could be utilized in some way. I have no idea if that has been investigated.
There is still a massive amount of room for improvement in construction standards. But the past 100 years in particular, and more. Have shown great advances.
It would be nice if the buyer could drive quality lots more than they do, with the assistance of their surveyors and estate agencies. But they are totally conflicted as it is in their interests to turn over sales.
John
Interesting that Santander report that in May this year figures show that buyers are prepared to pay more for more energy efficient homes. The averaged Premuim being £26.6k or 9.4%. Santander expects that figure will have increased over the summer sales period.
Facebook
Twitter