People have written whole PhD theses on the subject so a mere 70-odd posts is just scratching the surface of its potential, LOL.
Well, I guess most of us left college/uni a long time ago, so thought we'd left all that thesis stuff behind......*rolling eyes icon thingy*
……the interesting thing to me is that ultimately snaking can only be prevented by addressing issues with the grip of the rear axle of the tow car.
The importance of having a correct caravan noseweight is largely to add weight to this axle and improve the grip of the tyres with the road surface.
If the nose hitch cannot move laterally then snaking cannot occur.
Correct loading of the caravan helps reduce the likely hood of snaking but it can still occur.
If Steve (the OP) had a low noseweight, no rear passengers, a near empty fuel tank and an empty boot, you can see why the rear axle grip would be less.
The larger percentage of the weight of his Jaguar would be carried by the front axle and may have caused his problem at 50mph
The importance of having a correct caravan noseweight is largely to add weight to this axle and improve the grip of the tyres with the road surface.
If the nose hitch cannot move laterally then snaking cannot occur.
Correct loading of the caravan helps reduce the likely hood of snaking but it can still occur.
If Steve (the OP) had a low noseweight, no rear passengers, a near empty fuel tank and an empty boot, you can see why the rear axle grip would be less.
The larger percentage of the weight of his Jaguar would be carried by the front axle and may have caused his problem at 50mph
What you're saying is not entirely wrong, but, oh, if only things were as simple as that. (If they were, perhaps we wouldn't have had over 70 posts to this thread.) Instability can still occur even with a full bootload and ideal conditions with optimal tyre grip, just the threshold of when it sets in is a bit higher.
Hi, Sue.Was it that you had gone to make a brew during an input intermission, that put your comment right behind mine on the Time Stamp?;and in fact it was not in relation to what I was tapping away at the time(one finger typing is very time consuming).Oh by the way,your ID Plaque is so true; but also- Illegal,Immoral & Fattening can all bring an end to ' The Good Life' in one way or another.
Hello Gaffer
And at the risk of upsetting the Rooster and others whilst supping their special brews;
Instability we most frequently encounter is the trailer behaving badly, not the car. It is undeniably true that in some instances the rear wheels of the car may lose grip, but is more usual for just the trailer to be delinquent, and it is only when it begins to lift a wheel off the ground that the grip of the car becomes more critical.
Nose load will add additional down force on the rear axle of tow car, but probably no more that about the weight of an adult occupant in the rear seats of the car. So it is not likely to be significant for that reason on its own. The dynamic effects of towing a caravan are many-fold, and I cannot possibly describe them all, but they are constantly changing as you tow a trailer. Not only changing in how powerful but also in direction.
When a trailer is stationary, the only significant force is gravity, and that pulls the caravan towards the ground as it is was pulling on a single point that is the Centre of Mass. Conveniently the direction of this force is through a triangle created by the hitch and the two road wheels.
But when towing, all the other forces also pull on this same point and when all the forces are resolved, provided the direction is still through the triangle the caravan will remain upright. But as the line of action approaches the edges of the triangle, the caravan will become increasingly unhappy, and ultimately if the line of action falls outside the triangle, the caravan will be unstable and can fall over.
So the nose load itself does not create stability, it is just the inevitable effect of the caravans centre of Mass being located forward of the axle by some distance.
In theory at least the most stable outfit would result from having the CoM at the centre of the base triangle, i.e. 1/3 the distance between the axle to the hitch, but that would mean nose loads of 350Kg or more!
And at the risk of upsetting the Rooster and others whilst supping their special brews;
Instability we most frequently encounter is the trailer behaving badly, not the car. It is undeniably true that in some instances the rear wheels of the car may lose grip, but is more usual for just the trailer to be delinquent, and it is only when it begins to lift a wheel off the ground that the grip of the car becomes more critical.
Nose load will add additional down force on the rear axle of tow car, but probably no more that about the weight of an adult occupant in the rear seats of the car. So it is not likely to be significant for that reason on its own. The dynamic effects of towing a caravan are many-fold, and I cannot possibly describe them all, but they are constantly changing as you tow a trailer. Not only changing in how powerful but also in direction.
When a trailer is stationary, the only significant force is gravity, and that pulls the caravan towards the ground as it is was pulling on a single point that is the Centre of Mass. Conveniently the direction of this force is through a triangle created by the hitch and the two road wheels.
But when towing, all the other forces also pull on this same point and when all the forces are resolved, provided the direction is still through the triangle the caravan will remain upright. But as the line of action approaches the edges of the triangle, the caravan will become increasingly unhappy, and ultimately if the line of action falls outside the triangle, the caravan will be unstable and can fall over.
So the nose load itself does not create stability, it is just the inevitable effect of the caravans centre of Mass being located forward of the axle by some distance.
In theory at least the most stable outfit would result from having the CoM at the centre of the base triangle, i.e. 1/3 the distance between the axle to the hitch, but that would mean nose loads of 350Kg or more!
…John.
If you think what you have written is correct when it comes to the dynamics of snaking, then perhaps you could explain how
Al-ko’s ATC system works in terms of the forces it applies to the caravan.
If you are correct it has the ability to keep the Centre of Mass within the triangle you describe.
Perhaps you could explain how it does this.
After all it has been proven to prevent and correct snaking!
In fact Al-ko recognise that it is the compliance of the tow cars rear axle and its grip on the road that controls the caravans stability.
The caravans instability may be caused by other factors but it is tamed by the tow car.
The ATC system has no effect on where the caravans Centre of Mass is, it works by applying a brake force when lateral movement of the caravan is detected by an electronic sensor.
This force pulls the rear axle of the tow car back into line after it has been forced off line due to loss of grip caused by lateral forces of the snake passing through the hitch.
Grip and compliance returns to the rear axle, the forces of the snake are counteracted at the hitch and the snake ceases.
Where a snake develops to a roll over situation it will start with the rear axle of the tow car loosing grip completely and a jack-knife occurring. This results in massive deceleration whereby the Centre of Mass may well move outside your triangle causing the caravan to overturn.
If you think what you have written is correct when it comes to the dynamics of snaking, then perhaps you could explain how
Al-ko’s ATC system works in terms of the forces it applies to the caravan.
If you are correct it has the ability to keep the Centre of Mass within the triangle you describe.
Perhaps you could explain how it does this.
After all it has been proven to prevent and correct snaking!
In fact Al-ko recognise that it is the compliance of the tow cars rear axle and its grip on the road that controls the caravans stability.
The caravans instability may be caused by other factors but it is tamed by the tow car.
The ATC system has no effect on where the caravans Centre of Mass is, it works by applying a brake force when lateral movement of the caravan is detected by an electronic sensor.
This force pulls the rear axle of the tow car back into line after it has been forced off line due to loss of grip caused by lateral forces of the snake passing through the hitch.
Grip and compliance returns to the rear axle, the forces of the snake are counteracted at the hitch and the snake ceases.
Where a snake develops to a roll over situation it will start with the rear axle of the tow car loosing grip completely and a jack-knife occurring. This results in massive deceleration whereby the Centre of Mass may well move outside your triangle causing the caravan to overturn.
Electronic stabilisers, whether AlKo's ATC, BPW's iDC, LEAS or any other, do not, as you seem to suggest, do anything to control the rear end of the towcar, but straighten out the caravan because its tyres have swerved. One can consider the caravan as a sort of pendulum. Loss of grip of the towcar's rear tyres is not a necessary condition to start a snake. Lateral compliance of tyres and the suspension is sufficient to be one of the parameters which influence the risk of a snake without going to the extreme of loss of grip, which only happens in the final stages before total disaster. The electronic stabiliser will deploy long before that condition occurs.
With his statement regarding the ideal location of centre of mass of the caravan, I think John just wanted to highlight one of the parameters which would help to reduce the risk of instability without suggesting that it alone is responsible or capable of preventing it. There are just too many other factors in the equation.
With his statement regarding the ideal location of centre of mass of the caravan, I think John just wanted to highlight one of the parameters which would help to reduce the risk of instability without suggesting that it alone is responsible or capable of preventing it. There are just too many other factors in the equation.
Hello Gaffer,
I do not have and have never had a close look at the ALKO system, so I cannot offer any detailed explanation for its method of operation, except for what has already been written in this forum.
To understand my postulation, you have to appreciate, that the vector sum of all forces acting on a mass can be resolved to a single force acting on the mass’s Centre of Mass in a single direction. Unless the mass changes shape or density the CoM will always be resolved to the same point within the mass, it will not move.
The CoM of a caravan, (just like the shape above) does not move until you change the way the caravan is loaded.
What does change is the resolved vector sum of the forces acting on CoM. A Vector force has a direction, and it is this vector that moves about from the fixed CoM to a point relative to my triangle. Provided it passes through my triangle the caravan will remain upright, but if it passes outside of my triangle the caravan will roll over.
There area a vast array of forces acting on the caravan, and the direction of the vector will move about quite a lot and quickly whilst towing. Rapid side to side swinging movements of the vector taking it close to the edges of my Triangle will begin to produce swaying, and the ALKO system will detect this, and apply the relevant brake to try to reduce the sway. The application of the brake is yet another force that will resolve and change the direction of the single vector. Provided it is resolved within the triangle, the caravan will remain upright.
Note the COM has not moved within the caravan, only the direction of the resolved forces.
I do not have and have never had a close look at the ALKO system, so I cannot offer any detailed explanation for its method of operation, except for what has already been written in this forum.
To understand my postulation, you have to appreciate, that the vector sum of all forces acting on a mass can be resolved to a single force acting on the mass’s Centre of Mass in a single direction. Unless the mass changes shape or density the CoM will always be resolved to the same point within the mass, it will not move.
The CoM of a caravan, (just like the shape above) does not move until you change the way the caravan is loaded.
What does change is the resolved vector sum of the forces acting on CoM. A Vector force has a direction, and it is this vector that moves about from the fixed CoM to a point relative to my triangle. Provided it passes through my triangle the caravan will remain upright, but if it passes outside of my triangle the caravan will roll over.
There area a vast array of forces acting on the caravan, and the direction of the vector will move about quite a lot and quickly whilst towing. Rapid side to side swinging movements of the vector taking it close to the edges of my Triangle will begin to produce swaying, and the ALKO system will detect this, and apply the relevant brake to try to reduce the sway. The application of the brake is yet another force that will resolve and change the direction of the single vector. Provided it is resolved within the triangle, the caravan will remain upright.
Note the COM has not moved within the caravan, only the direction of the resolved forces.
Perhaps the above will become clearer when one appreciates that the corners of the triangle that John is referring to are the towball and the two points where the wheels touch the ground, i.e. an almost horizontal plane which is very low down and certainly well below the centre of mass, rather like a camera standing on a tripod. The tripod will topple over if a horizontal force (in this case lateral acceleration) is applied to the camera even though statically the camera is standing very steadily on its three legs. In other words, one cannot think of the model as being simply two dimensional. By applying the brakes, the electronic stabiliser introduces a rearward force that counteracts the force causing the sway.
……I fully understand all the forces at work in a caravan during snaking.
Where we disagree is that you think these forces have no effect on the tow car…. According to you it just proceeds normally with an unstable snaking caravan behind.
Eventually the caravan topples over because the C.O.M moves outside its triangular base.
What actually happens is that the caravan is an unstable balanced trailer.
Poor loading, road ruts, side winds, bow waves from large vehicles can make it more unstable.
Its hitch may try to move in any direction with varying amounts of force whilst being towed.
Vertical forces are cancelled out by the cars suspension with only a pitching effect on the tow car.
Lateral forces are a different matter, these are only cancelled out by the rear tyres of the tow car gripping the road and counteracting these forces.
If the forces are large enough the tyres will loose grip as they revolve.
This will manifest itself as rear wheel steering as the tyres are forced offline.
The further the tyres are forced off line the greater the friction with the road, the lateral force is counteracted and the outfit snaps back into line.
Inertia now causes the process to be repeated in the opposite direction…..a snake develops!
The driver has no means of controlling the direction of the outfit and a roll over may result.
The tail wags the dog!
Stabililizers work by reducing these lateral forces on the hitch and thereby make this loss of grip less likely.
The nose weight and any weight over the rear axle of the tow car also raises the point at which grip is lost.
You are right in that extreme loss of grip only occurs in the final jack-knife stage of a rollover.
What I refer to is the directional grip of a rotating tyre and its ability to resist a lateral force and not move offline.
Where we disagree is that you think these forces have no effect on the tow car…. According to you it just proceeds normally with an unstable snaking caravan behind.
Eventually the caravan topples over because the C.O.M moves outside its triangular base.
What actually happens is that the caravan is an unstable balanced trailer.
Poor loading, road ruts, side winds, bow waves from large vehicles can make it more unstable.
Its hitch may try to move in any direction with varying amounts of force whilst being towed.
Vertical forces are cancelled out by the cars suspension with only a pitching effect on the tow car.
Lateral forces are a different matter, these are only cancelled out by the rear tyres of the tow car gripping the road and counteracting these forces.
If the forces are large enough the tyres will loose grip as they revolve.
This will manifest itself as rear wheel steering as the tyres are forced offline.
The further the tyres are forced off line the greater the friction with the road, the lateral force is counteracted and the outfit snaps back into line.
Inertia now causes the process to be repeated in the opposite direction…..a snake develops!
The driver has no means of controlling the direction of the outfit and a roll over may result.
The tail wags the dog!
Stabililizers work by reducing these lateral forces on the hitch and thereby make this loss of grip less likely.
The nose weight and any weight over the rear axle of the tow car also raises the point at which grip is lost.
You are right in that extreme loss of grip only occurs in the final jack-knife stage of a rollover.
What I refer to is the directional grip of a rotating tyre and its ability to resist a lateral force and not move offline.
When a snake occurs, the caravan's tyres will lose grip long before the rear wheels of the towcar. While the caravan swings from side to side, practically all the weight of the caravan is carried by the outboard wheel only. The inside wheel may even lift off the ground completely leaving the remaining contact with the road surface on the other side hopelessly unable to cope.
It is not true that the driver, on his own, cannot regain control of a snaking outfit, even if it is quite severe. By applying the brakes he is also applying the overrun brakes of the caravan, much the same as electronic TSP (Trailer Stability Program) systems of some modern cars function and do the work for him. I have myself been able to catch a swaying a caravan that was using up the best part of two lanes in the process without TSP or other electronic stabiliser to assist me, although I must admit it is a frightening experience that takes some getting used to.
It is not true that the driver, on his own, cannot regain control of a snaking outfit, even if it is quite severe. By applying the brakes he is also applying the overrun brakes of the caravan, much the same as electronic TSP (Trailer Stability Program) systems of some modern cars function and do the work for him. I have myself been able to catch a swaying a caravan that was using up the best part of two lanes in the process without TSP or other electronic stabiliser to assist me, although I must admit it is a frightening experience that takes some getting used to.
Hello gaffer,
I don't dispute the tow vehicle will have some reaction to a misbehaving trailer, but the effects on the car will be minimal until the trailer is beginning to get seriously out of control. The action of the ALKO system (which is what you asked about) is on the brakes of the caravan, not on the car.
You are quite correct to mention inertia. this is one more of the mirriad of influences that affects the resolution of the vector force acting on the CoM, and it is as you point out one of the major influence on sustaining an osculation of the caravan suspension from side to side, but in exactly the same way that the nose load of a caravan is a small percentage of its total weight, any lateral force on the caravan acting on its CoM will only be represented as the same percentage at the tow hitch due to the lever same lengths. So under lateral loads the caravan wheels will loose grip well before the cars rear wheels.
Of course if the car is under heavy braking or is trying to turn a corner too quickly then its wheels may lock/skid, and then their directional control is diminished, and the caravan may develop a greater influence on the car leading to a jack knife.
The scenario you paint in your posting of 8:34 tonight is one were the initial stages of instability are well passed, and the outfit is in a very dangerous condition. A driver that allows their outfit to reach this state of affairs is in really serious trouble.
I don't dispute the tow vehicle will have some reaction to a misbehaving trailer, but the effects on the car will be minimal until the trailer is beginning to get seriously out of control. The action of the ALKO system (which is what you asked about) is on the brakes of the caravan, not on the car.
You are quite correct to mention inertia. this is one more of the mirriad of influences that affects the resolution of the vector force acting on the CoM, and it is as you point out one of the major influence on sustaining an osculation of the caravan suspension from side to side, but in exactly the same way that the nose load of a caravan is a small percentage of its total weight, any lateral force on the caravan acting on its CoM will only be represented as the same percentage at the tow hitch due to the lever same lengths. So under lateral loads the caravan wheels will loose grip well before the cars rear wheels.
Of course if the car is under heavy braking or is trying to turn a corner too quickly then its wheels may lock/skid, and then their directional control is diminished, and the caravan may develop a greater influence on the car leading to a jack knife.
The scenario you paint in your posting of 8:34 tonight is one were the initial stages of instability are well passed, and the outfit is in a very dangerous condition. A driver that allows their outfit to reach this state of affairs is in really serious trouble.
….I raised the issue of the Al-ko ATC system because the way it works is an insight into snaking.
It senses an abnormal lateral force present in the caravan and applies all of the caravans brakes at the same time.
The force this creates is one of tension on the tow ball of the tow car.
I maintain that the harmful forces present at the tow ball during a snake are forces of compression relative to the tow car and they are expressed laterally.
The caravan is forcing the rear axle of the tow car offline as I have said before.
Do not underestimate these forces, they are forces of inertia arising from yawl oscillations set off by external influences.
These may be aerodynamic or mechanical (bow waves, side winds, ruts, steering input, etc)
Poor loading of the caravan will amplify these forces.
Hence the often given advice against placing heavy loads at the front or back of the caravan.
The ATC counteracts these harmful forces of compression by applying tension on the tow ball, the snake decays causing the brakes on the caravan to be released.
If you watch this video you will see that during snaking, the rear axle of the model tow car is thrown off line as I describe.
It does not remain virtually rock steady as you suggest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFzrWHTG5e8
I maintain that if the rear axle of the tow car could be made to remain rock steady and not move off line then the snake could not happen.
It senses an abnormal lateral force present in the caravan and applies all of the caravans brakes at the same time.
The force this creates is one of tension on the tow ball of the tow car.
I maintain that the harmful forces present at the tow ball during a snake are forces of compression relative to the tow car and they are expressed laterally.
The caravan is forcing the rear axle of the tow car offline as I have said before.
Do not underestimate these forces, they are forces of inertia arising from yawl oscillations set off by external influences.
These may be aerodynamic or mechanical (bow waves, side winds, ruts, steering input, etc)
Poor loading of the caravan will amplify these forces.
Hence the often given advice against placing heavy loads at the front or back of the caravan.
The ATC counteracts these harmful forces of compression by applying tension on the tow ball, the snake decays causing the brakes on the caravan to be released.
If you watch this video you will see that during snaking, the rear axle of the model tow car is thrown off line as I describe.
It does not remain virtually rock steady as you suggest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFzrWHTG5e8
I maintain that if the rear axle of the tow car could be made to remain rock steady and not move off line then the snake could not happen.
I would specifically like to comment and agree with what Lutz has written I wouldn't normally as I am no expert on the subject being discussed.
However I can comment on what I have experienced
whilst driving through Slovenia this year we crossed a viaduct on the motorway which had considerable cross winds which must have caught the caravan whilst driving at around 60mph.
At that point the ATC engaged as the Mercedes car I have has TSP (trailer stability Programme) The cars brakes actuated the dashboard lit up red and the vehicle power was cut at a rate which allowed the vehicle to be pulled over on to the hard shoulder where the engine ticked over.
At this point what was required was to switch of the ignition and then restart which reset both the ATC and the TSP and we continued on our journey as if nothing had happened.
The only reason I mention this is it substantiates exactly what Lutz had quoted above
Regards
John
However I can comment on what I have experienced
whilst driving through Slovenia this year we crossed a viaduct on the motorway which had considerable cross winds which must have caught the caravan whilst driving at around 60mph.
At that point the ATC engaged as the Mercedes car I have has TSP (trailer stability Programme) The cars brakes actuated the dashboard lit up red and the vehicle power was cut at a rate which allowed the vehicle to be pulled over on to the hard shoulder where the engine ticked over.
At this point what was required was to switch of the ignition and then restart which reset both the ATC and the TSP and we continued on our journey as if nothing had happened.
The only reason I mention this is it substantiates exactly what Lutz had quoted above
Regards
John
In response to Gafferbill's last post I would like to repeat something that I wrote earlier. A caravan can go into a snake even if the towcar were to run on rails. The lateral compliance of the tyres and the car's suspension (mainly that of the rear) alone are enough to allow the caravan to become unstable. In the final stages, the tyres will lose adhesion no matter how much load is applied to the rear axle. Without appropriate action on the part of the driver, no measures, other than electronic stabilisers either on the car (TSP) and/or caravan (ATC, iDC or LEAS), can prevent instability completely, although some may raise the threshold speed at which instability occurs by a couple of mph. Removing both tyre compliance and that of the rear suspension would result in absolutely unacceptable ride comfort so these measures are no option.
TSP mentioned in John's reply above probably comes closest to Gafferbill's concept of preventing the back end of the towcar from swaying. This feature is already offered by many car manufacturers, either as standard fitment or as part of a factory-fitted towbar package option.
TSP mentioned in John's reply above probably comes closest to Gafferbill's concept of preventing the back end of the towcar from swaying. This feature is already offered by many car manufacturers, either as standard fitment or as part of a factory-fitted towbar package option.
i cant believe this is still going.
some observations.
contrary to a post by one of you guys, the towing vehicle can and does have an affect on the the snake long before the snake gets out of control, indeed , our own reaction s in trying to stop the towing vehicle from serving across the lanes often means that we excacerbate the snake, unless the towing vehicle is restrained in some way to prevent any sway on the part of the towing vehicle.
can any one prove without doubt , either mathematically tor through empirical data that they are 100% correct... remember " a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing".
and you all seem to be going around in circles, if you re read the whole thing from start to finsh there are many, many contradictory statements made by everyone...
one poster commented on the C o M of the caravan moving then later post that the C o M can not move.
have fun.
some observations.
contrary to a post by one of you guys, the towing vehicle can and does have an affect on the the snake long before the snake gets out of control, indeed , our own reaction s in trying to stop the towing vehicle from serving across the lanes often means that we excacerbate the snake, unless the towing vehicle is restrained in some way to prevent any sway on the part of the towing vehicle.
can any one prove without doubt , either mathematically tor through empirical data that they are 100% correct... remember " a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing".
and you all seem to be going around in circles, if you re read the whole thing from start to finsh there are many, many contradictory statements made by everyone...
one poster commented on the C o M of the caravan moving then later post that the C o M can not move.
have fun.
Nobody has said that the towing vehicle doesn't have an effect on a snake. All that has been said is that even if the towing vehicles tyres were to grip 100% (which is entirely hypothetical because such a condition cannot exist in practice) the caravan could still go into a snake. As there is no realistic way of restraining the towing vehicle, the only way to control a snake is to change another variable, usually speed. This is done either by TSP applying the towcar's brakes automatically or similar action on the part of the driver. Trying to steer out of a snake is a well-nigh impossible task because no driver is that good that he can turn the steering wheel by exactly the right amount and in exactly the right direction at the right time to counteract the frequency of the swing.
The comments regarding the centre of mass moving is a matter of perspective. Relative to the caravan itself it does not move, relative to the centreline of the towcar of course it does when the caravan goes into a snake.
Therefore, except for some incorrect statements, there are no contradictions. One has just got to understand what the other person is trying to say.
The comments regarding the centre of mass moving is a matter of perspective. Relative to the caravan itself it does not move, relative to the centreline of the towcar of course it does when the caravan goes into a snake.
Therefore, except for some incorrect statements, there are no contradictions. One has just got to understand what the other person is trying to say.
I gave up actually reading this topic ages ago, I just can't believe that it's still coming up day after day after day......what can there possibly be left to say? Look at it from a newbie's point of view......they come to the home page, and the first thing they see is this topic, in the very first forum. And what does it consist of? The same few names (blokes, of course) going on and on and round and round in circles, repeating the same stuff over and OVER again. It's ceased to have any meaning, it's just become a battle to see who can have the last word. I very much doubt that any newbie would still be wading through all this pontificating right to the end, so why are you all still bothering??? God, I hope I don't meet any of you lot in a pub! Would put me right off my pear cider
Gafferbill said:
I quite agree gaffer, i doubt jl has ever experienced a snake, i have and managed to recover it, the rear tyres do indeed loss grip, lucky for me the rig recovered.
I note lutz made a comment re a longer caravan being more stable!
I hope so, as i intend to go to a 24' from a 21'.
But i very much doubt more stability will be achieved, especially in high cross winds?
My comment regarding stability of longer caravans was directed more at straight line towing behaviour and not any effect that cross winds may have. It is difficult to comment on how cross winds affect caravans as this becomes an even more complex subject, depending, among other things, on where the aerodynamic centre of the caravan is relative to its centre of mass, but that's perhaps a topic for another thread.
Thats bull lutz, the double act that you and jl perform on anyone who dares to have a different view point is quite frankly getting annoying.
In high winds all high sided vehicles' are warned to drive with caution, theirs really nothing complex about that, any increase in CSA will be problematic in high winds.
Common sense tells you that, no need for vectors, or mathematical formulas.
Its time to talk sense, and cut out the bull?
In high winds all high sided vehicles' are warned to drive with caution, theirs really nothing complex about that, any increase in CSA will be problematic in high winds.
Common sense tells you that, no need for vectors, or mathematical formulas.
Its time to talk sense, and cut out the bull?
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