Snaking!!!

[DerektheSecond]

Does this mean that everytime you want to go on holiday with the the caravan you have to "ask a friend" to come and measure the towball hitch once you have loaded your car I take it by this you mean the drivers weight as well, who measures the road level?Without being nasty I really think this thread has got out of hand. it was a fairly simple question with a large number of correct answers. Common sense should surely prevail on how to measure nose weight, if it dosnt feel right you stop and check it, I still class myself as a newbie to this forum which is a fantastic source of help, bear in mind I have towed for over 30 years we live in the real world, measure your car on level ground full tank etc. 300 miles down the road empty fuel tank legal when I start off illegal when I stop, Damien I know I dont have to read this,but it felt great writting this
AND IM NOT GETTING AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR

 

[Lutz]

Those that have tried to give advice in this thread have done so strictly according to the letter of the law as anything else could be misleading and would certainly be irresponsible. However, that does not mean that by using a bit of common sense it is not possible to make relatively good approximations using simpler or easier methods than those described, but one must always be fully aware of the degree of inaccuracy that such deviations entail. The accompanying degree of risk is a personal decision that everyone must take for themselves.

 

[DerektheSecond]

Those that have tried to give advice in this thread have done so strictly according to the letter of the law as anything else could be misleading and would certainly be irresponsible. However, that does not mean that by using a bit of common sense it is not possible to make relatively good approximations using simpler or easier methods than those described, but one must always be fully aware of the degree of inaccuracy that such deviations entail. The accompanying degree of risk is a personal decision that everyone must take for themselves.

this is a quote from the camping and caravan club,
There is no easy answer to this. When caravans were lightweight (less than 1,000kg) and the many cars had a noseweight of 75kg, this was not a problem. A 1,275kg caravan is now thought lightweight, but it gives an 85 per cent match with a diesel Mondeo. The ideal seven per cent noseweight of 89kg exceeds the Mondeo’s 75kg limit. This overloads the car, making it illegal and could void the driver’s insurance.

In practice it has been found that the typical outfit indicated above with a noseweight limited to the Mondeo’s 75kg will be stable, given the caravan loading is distributed well and the overall weight is not exceeding the 85 per cent limit.

At some point when reducing the noseweight below the ideal, a situation will come when the effect of the lower weight will show up and the outfit will not feel stable, particularly at the higher end of legal towing speeds. If you also ignore any other stability factors, such as loading, the noseweight will become even more crucial.

Some caravans have nose weights of 75kg before they are even loaded. Once forward lockers are full of gas cylinders and the battery installed it is not unknown for the caravan hitchweight to be 90kg or more. Sometimes this hitchweight can be reduced to 75kg or less by positioning a heavy awning a short distance behind the caravan axle. However, to counterbalance a high noseweight by putting a heavy weight at the very rear of a caravan (back-loading) is inadvisable. Not only will your noseweight be less than ideal, but you have also created a dumb-bell effect, which will encourage your caravan to swing.

So when matching car and caravan, don’t compromise on the car’s towing limit or legal limits. Aim to meet the recommended 85 per cent weight ratio, but accept there may be a slight compromise to the seven per cent noseweight. Check your car noseweight limit is reasonably close to the ideal caravan noseweight and that you can easily balance the actual caravan noseweight within the car limit without excessive back-loading.

 

[Lutz]

Even if the Camping and Caravan Club talk about an "ideal" 7% noseweight, this figure has never been proved to be the optimum. It originated sometime in the dim and distant past and various sources have just continued to publish this recommendation without ever questioned it, I am sure that if you ask the club how the 7% was determined, nobody will be able to come up with a plausible explanation.

 

[Philspadders]

i have been busy for a few days and am not surprised that this is still going.

One of the reasons is that there is i think a bit of power playing point scoring i know more than you going on.

However those of you that make sweeping statements based on a little bit of knowledge should remeber that if somone takes your advice and that advice is incorrect you maheld liable for the consequences and i am sure you would not want that on your consience.

For instance my outfit is way over the 100% ratio but i have fit LEAS to the trailer ( recommended by a poster ) and i am apparantly 100% garunteed never to get into trouble with a snake. But if i do...........

 

[DerektheSecond]

"One of the reasons is that there is i think a bit of power playing point scoring i know more than you going on"
and common sense along with the original posters question has gone out the window

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Derek,

Being pedantic, yes all passengers and the driver should be in their seats when the hitch is measured, and the effect of a full or empty load of fuel should be taken into account - they will all affect the height of the hitch. However if an outfit is so close to a limit when these factors are considered then the driver is duty bound to take steps to ensure the limit is not compromised during the journey

From a practical point of view and I guess 99.999% of cases, when the caravan is loaded and hitched the hitch height is most likely to be near the bottom of the range, thus as the fuel load reduces the hitch will rise but will more often than not remain within the acceptable range. There may be a few exceptional cases where the hitch rises above the upper limit, but if the driver has prepared correctly they should be aware of this and made provision for ballast to prevent it.

In your later response where you state that some caravans already have a nose load of 75Kg without the addition of gas bottles, then the driver is responsible for trimming the caravan to bring the nose load in line with the requirements of the car. Bluntley, if they cannot achieve it then the car and caravan are not a viable match.

The notional 7% figure has no basis in law, it is only a suggested guideline. The law does require a MINIMUM load of 25Kg or 4% of trailer weight which ever is greater. none of these figures guarantees a stable outfit, that is achieved only by due consideration to a range of factors of which nose weight is just one.

I fully agree it is advisable to minimise end loading to achieve a trim, but in practice there is already mass at the ends of the caravan because of body work etc so its not a total ban on end loading, it's a question of finding the best compromise to trim for the desired nose load.

A dose of good sense should be used in these matters, and where a limit is likely to be breached there is usually some freedom in loading to bring things back into kilter. If there is no freedom left, then it must call into question the combination of car and trailer.

 

[DerektheSecond]

I have not made any statements regarding 75kg nose weight that was a quote verbatim from the C&CC the statement I have made is that common sense seems to have gone out the window; Both clubs appear to have covered the original posters question within two paragraphs and in plain English.

 

[Lutz]

I have not made any statements regarding 75kg nose weight that was a quote verbatim from the C&CC the statement I have made is that common sense seems to have gone out the window; Both clubs appear to have covered the original posters question within two paragraphs and in plain English.

Just because the C&CC have made a recommendation, there is no reason why it should not be questioned. After all, they cannot claim to be infallible. In view of the fact that neither the club nor anyone else has ever come up with information that would substantiate a 7% formula for optimum noseweight, it is perfectly legitimate to question its validity.

 

[Lutz]

For instance my outfit is way over the 100% ratio but i have fit LEAS to the trailer ( recommended by a poster ) and i am apparantly 100% garunteed never to get into trouble with a snake. But if i do...........

Fit LEAS or ATC or iDC and if you do run into trouble with a snake (whether the outfit is over 100% or not) then the only reason can be technical failure of the system. To doubt its capability otherwise is about the same doubting whether brakes will slow a car down if they are applied.

 

[DerektheSecond]

I have not made any statements regarding 75kg nose weight that was a quote verbatim from the C&CC the statement I have made is that common sense seems to have gone out the window; Both clubs appear to have covered the original posters question within two paragraphs and in plain English.

Just because the C&CC have made a recommendation, there is no reason why it should not be questioned. After all, they cannot claim to be infallible. In view of the fact that neither the club nor anyone else has ever come up with information that would substantiate a 7% formula for optimum noseweight, it is perfectly legitimate to question its validity.

I wIsh I`d taken Damiens advice an age ago on this thread, I really didnt have to read it

 

[Damian]

Quote " I wIsh I`d taken Damiens advice an age ago on this thread, I really didnt have to read it"

Told You,,,,lol

 

[ProfJohnL]

Derek
I am sorry for stating you “stated” I accept that was wrong. It is of course a quote from the C&CC but I assume you must agree otherwise why did you reproduce it?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am highly aware this thread has generated a lot of negative comments, about how long it is and how it may have deviated from the originators question.

The direction of the thread has only deviated where a technicality has taken it. Or where another contributor has added a new twist.

I am actually quite upset by the personal comments that some contributors have been making, that without much doubt are directed at myself and Lutz.

Sadly some have proposed the view that both Lutz and I have been “ambushing” those with different views, an allegation that I absolutely refute.

I could make the exact same argument but in reverse about those who make the allegation against us.

Lutz and I have never had any direct communications with each other, and there is certainly no constructed campaign to collude with each other.

Whilst there is certainly a marked degree of congruity between our views, that only arises through our independent thought processes and application of engineering principals. I can only speak for myself but I choose not take traditions or the received wisdom of “common sense” at face value I prefer to look at what is trying to say and to see if the facts actually support it or not.

It is surprising how many “traditional” ways of doing caravanning things actually have no rational sense, so they are open to challenge.

Respectfully I wish to point out that I have only put forward technical arguments when I see a posting that impacts a physical property.

The extent and diversity of opinions on this topic clearly shows it is highly complex matter, and I see no realistic proposition that any individual will be able to provide enough proof or supporting evidence to conclusively settle the arguments one way or another – perhaps we are all wrong.

I propose we agree to disagree and refrain from posting further on this thread.