Some more information why Hydrogen is not practical for transport.

[ProfJohnL]

With the drive to reduce tailpipe emissions there has been some die hard Petrol/Diesel heads who keep suggesting that Hydrogen will be saviour of big Internal combustion engines, simply by converting them to use Hydrogen gas rather than atomised liquid fuels.

For a long time Hydrogen has been recognised as one method of reducing emissions, in the case of burning it in an ICE then the output then the unwanted emissions are mainly H2O (Water) , Oil particulates needed for lubrication and heat. In fact Hydrogen fueled ICE's are no more fuel efficient than the present day Petrol or Diesel, which in practical applications rarely better than 35% meaning at least 65% of the energy content of Hydrogen will be wasted as heat.

The situation is slightly better if the hydrogen is passed through a fuel cell. the U.S. Department of Energy studies have only rated fuel cells able to achieve between 40 and 60% gas to electrical energy conversion rates.

Whilst Hydrogen is only better than traditional liquid fuels in terms of emissions , that is only part of the story. You also need to factor in the cost (financial and energy efficiency ) of producing hydrogen. The world already produces a surprising amount of hydrogen, mainly through a process called steam reforming. This process usually converts Methane to Hydrogen but as a by product it it produces about 7kg of Carbon Monoxide (CO) for every 1Kg of Hydrogen. So it's far from being ecologically good.

Then you have to consider how to store, transport and deliver the Hydrogen. One of the aspects of hydrogen is its a very small molecule, and it is avery "searching" gas which means most containment systems are unable to stop it from escaping. Estimates vary but it is rekond that 10% of all hydrogen production is lost through unavoidable leaks.

The reason I have raised this topic now is because I have come across this YouTube Vlog which shows how impractically large the storage vessels in vehicle will need to be to get near to the magic 300 mile range.

See here

 

[otherclive]

An interesting video. In parallel the EU has directives to introduce more green hydrogen into gas networks and gas storage facilities. It includes for more generalised and lower cross border tariffs and the ability consumers to more easily switch suppliers. As well as climate change the war in Ukraine has acted as a catalyst and there’s been broader agreement between member states on the approach.

The initial plan affecting gas networks is a 2% hydrogen blend with natural gas. One outcome of this is that natural gas from Europe to Britain will contain the hydrogen content and unless UK changes its legislation the hydrogen will have to be removed at an estimated cost of £600m per annum. Trials are underway in UK and HMG issued a comprehensive consultation last year. Interesting to see the outcome

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/650057d81886eb00139771f8/hydrogen-blending-into-gb-gas-distribution-networks-consultation.pdf

 

[Buckman]

I still think that hydrogen is the way forward which is why people in manufacturing are still spending millions on research. EVs will be dead in the water within the next 10 years!

 

[Tobes]

An interesting video. In parallel the EU has directives to introduce more green hydrogen into gas networks and gas storage facilities. It includes for more generalised and lower cross border tariffs and the ability consumers to more easily switch suppliers. As well as climate change the war in Ukraine has acted as a catalyst and there’s been broader agreement between member states on the approach.

The initial plan affecting gas networks is a 2% hydrogen blend with natural gas. One outcome of this is that natural gas from Europe to Britain will contain the hydrogen content and unless UK changes its legislation the hydrogen will have to be removed at an estimated cost of £600m per annum. Trials are underway in UK and HMG issued a comprehensive consultation last year. Interesting to see the outcome

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/650057d81886eb00139771f8/hydrogen-blending-into-gb-gas-distribution-networks-consultation.pdf

Did the hydrogen blended gas trials actually happen? There was an enormous public backlash to the plan (near the Wirral?) that put the trial on hold. One of the concerns being, the production of the hydrogen in question was going to come from steam reformed methane, saving no CO2, increasing cost and decreasing energy in the home. Seemed like a futile program.

 

[otherclive]

Did the hydrogen blended gas trials actually happen? There was an enormous public backlash to the plan (near the Wirral?) that put the trial on hold. One of the concerns being, the production of the hydrogen in question was going to come from steam reformed methane, saving no CO2, increasing cost and decreasing energy in the home. Seemed like a futile program.

The trial planned for the NE at Redcar was cancelled at the end of 2023 as there was not an adequate supply of sustainable hydrogen which is fundamental to its use in either transport or heating. The Ellesmere Port trial was also cancelled after local protests but blended hydrogen natural gas trials have taken place in a “pilot” facility at Keele University. The EU plan is only for 2% blend but from sustainable sources otherwise it defeats the aim of reducing overall CO2 emmisions.

https://hynet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Press-Release-UK-trial-of-hydrogen-blended-gas-hailed-a-success.pdf

UK cancels controversial hydrogen heating trial in Redcar due to ‘lack of H2 supply’

But officials refuse to rule out H2 in domestic heat entirely, saying they will gather evidence from Scotland and EU

www.hydrogeninsight.com

 

[ProfJohnL]

I was not aware of the suggestion of adding H2 to natural gas. Apart from the possible need to have gas appliances adjusted to be able to burn the mix, which I guess is what the trials were for, What were the other public objections to its use?

 

[otherclive]

The EU are going ahead with a 2% hydrogen content for natural gas pipelines for heating, and storage. The Ellesmere port trial was scrapped because of the protests of some residents probably based on an abject fear it was too dangerous, and poor PR and consultation.

Ellesmere Port hydrogen heating trial scrapped after protests

Residents were uneasy about their natural gas supply being replaced with pure hydrogen from 2025.

www.bbc.co.uk

The Keele University trial in their buildings and facilities had blends up to 20% hydrogen.

HyDeploy

www.keele.ac.uk

 

[Tobes]

I still think that hydrogen is the way forward which is why people in manufacturing are still spending millions on research. EVs will be dead in the water within the next 10 years!

I think its not - for private transport or LGV / HGV- as evidenced by manufacturers spending billions on EV research vs millions on hyrdogen, and having had hydrogen cars available in the market for as long as EVs (Mirai, Nexo). There are just a handful of hydrogen cars and stations in the UK, and 10s of thousands of public charge points (hundreds of thousands of private). Truck manufacturers such as Volvo are busy shipping HGV EV tractor units in volume today.

Edit: Nissan and Honda have announced a partnership to pursue EV technology in a bid to "catch up" with Chinese players.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you OC for the heads up. I do now recall the Keele University trail on the local news but it was about 2 years ago now, but I wasn't aware of the EU 2% scheme.

To be honest I can't see 2% making much difference to the emissions issue, but it is perhaps a start towards increasing the percentage to a more significant proportion like the 20% that Keele investigated.

From what I do know of Gas Combustion technology, if the Hydrogen content is raised significantly (e.g. beyond 20%) it would change the Wobbe index of the gas supplied and that might need appliances to be re-jeted, and the aeration adjusted to achieve clean safe combustion at the correct heat output. Some of us will remember the big project that changed all the gas appliances from town to natural gas between 1966 and 77 - Ah back to the good old day's.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I still think that hydrogen is the way forward which is why people in manufacturing are still spending millions on research. EVs will be dead in the water within the next 10 years!

If you look at the scale of the investment into Hydrogen for transport, and EV's the difference is several orders of magnitude in favour of EV's.

I think to suggest that literally of thousands of independent companies around the world have all made a incorrect choice between Hydrogen and EV development for transport is an unsustainable argument.

There are situations where Hydrogen may be practical choice but it will be a minority of quite specialised situations.

If the aim is to reduce overall emissions from the transport sector (inc private transport) then EV have been widely and demonstrably a more effective solution taking into account whole cycle from manufacture and life time running emissions.

The same is true for overall efficiency of operation. Whole cycle energy efficiency of EV's beat every present day Hydrogen solutions.

None of this precludes the possibility that some vastly more efficient method of producing green hydrogen might be found, but as the evidence stands we are no where near matching the cycle efficiencies of EV's for transport. if it is used in an ICE then it will NEVER beat EV's but use in an Fuel Cell, might come closer to EV's. All this might be overshadowed by the difficulty of storing enough H2 in practical sized containers in cars.

 

[otherclive]

Thank you OC for the heads up. I do now recall the Keele University trail on the local news but it was about 2 years ago now, but I wasn't aware of the EU 2% scheme.

To be honest I can't see 2% making much difference to the emissions issue, but it is perhaps a start towards increasing the percentage to a more significant proportion like the 20% that Keele investigated.

From what I do know of Gas Combustion technology, if the Hydrogen content is raised significantly (e.g. beyond 20%) it would change the Wobbe index of the gas supplied and that might need appliances to be re-jeted, and the aeration adjusted to achieve clean safe combustion at the correct heat output. Some of us will remember the big project that changed all the gas appliances from town to natural gas between 1966 and 77 - Ah back to the good old day's.

The EU's approach is a start as the directive requires it to be Green Hydrogen, but the other aspect is that it is an attempt to see gas transmissions as an EU wide issue and to reduce the national barriers that exists between the countries, leading to a ( dare I say it) "a common market" in gas to benefit the consumer and add resilience to the multination infrastructure.

I believe that the Keele project did not require any changes to appliances, but aren't all new boilers being made as hydrogen ready? To what percentage I don't know. But even 2% of green hydrogen will reduce overall emissions of CO2 , so it should not be disregarded in the overall scheme of things.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The EU's approach is a start as the directive requires it to be Green Hydrogen, but the other aspect is that it is an attempt to see gas transmissions as an EU wide issue and to reduce the national barriers that exists between the countries, leading to a ( dare I say it) "a common market" in gas to benefit the consumer and add resilience to the multination infrastructure.

I believe that the Keele project did not require any changes to appliances, but aren't all new boilers being made as hydrogen ready? To what percentage I don't know. But even 2% of green hydrogen will reduce overall emissions of CO2 , so it should not be disregarded in the overall scheme of things.

I'm in no way suggesting 2% is pointless, it's just a small start which if that's as far as it was taken, in the grand scheme of things it will be barely noticeable.

Don't loose sight of the fact there are more than home heating boilers that use gas, so trials are necessary to be certain all appliances will work. Its not just whether the gas will burn cleanly, in some cases its the effect on flame size and temperature depending on the gas being burnt will be different.

The wrong size or temperature of flame might compromise flame detection systems, or the design or construction of the combustion chamber or heat exchangers, which could translate to the appliance touchable surfaces being hotter than regulations allow.

Gas turbines might not work as efficiently, or they may run too hot on a rich hydrogen fuel.

It does seem that most new boilers since 2021 should be able to handle 20% H2 mixture and some are claimed to be able to run 100%. but there are many millions of older boilers that are not necessarily H2 ready. So this aging stock has to limit the rate at which H2 could be introduced at increased %ages

 

[Buckman]

If you look at the scale of the investment into Hydrogen for transport, and EV's the difference is several orders of magnitude in favour of EV's.

I think to suggest that literally of thousands of independent companies around the world have all made a incorrect choice between Hydrogen and EV development for transport is an unsustainable argument.

There are situations where Hydrogen may be practical choice but it will be a minority of quite specialised situations.

If the aim is to reduce overall emissions from the transport sector (inc private transport) then EV have been widely and demonstrably a more effective solution taking into account whole cycle from manufacture and life time running emissions.

The same is true for overall efficiency of operation. Whole cycle energy efficiency of EV's beat every present day Hydrogen solutions.

None of this precludes the possibility that some vastly more efficient method of producing green hydrogen might be found, but as the evidence stands we are no where near matching the cycle efficiencies of EV's for transport. if it is used in an ICE then it will NEVER beat EV's but use in an Fuel Cell, might come closer to EV's. All this might be overshadowed by the difficulty of storing enough H2 in practical sized containers in cars.

You may be right and I may be right, but only time will tell. Not sure why you think that EVs are environmentally friendly? However that is your choice.

 

[otherclive]

This article from the boss of Renault will make Buckman day as it introduces the concept of a mixed economy for transport energy and in particular for hydrogen to play a bigger part.

Hydrogen and efuel cars can help save the European auto industry, says Renault boss | Auto Express

Renault boss, Luca de Meo’s strategy to save Europe’s car industry includes a bigger role for hydrogen

www.autoexpress.co.uk

 

[ProfJohnL]

You may be right and I may be right, but only time will tell. Not sure why you think that EVs are environmentally friendly? However that is your choice.

I don't recall making a statement that "EVs are environmentally friendly". I have compared the impacts EV's compared to ICE with Dino juice and Hydrogen, and looking at the whole life emissions, EV's have a lower impact on the environment than any ICE even those running on green Hydrogen.

The fact is all forms of transport have some form of impact on the environment. becasue you need to expend energy to accelerate an object. There will always be be some form of emission from the process, so you can't have a zero impact transport system, it's a question of how to minimise the inevitable impact that arises.

 

[ProfJohnL]

This article from the boss of Renault will make Buckman day as it introduces the concept of a mixed economy for transport energy and in particular for hydrogen to play a bigger part.

Hydrogen and efuel cars can help save the European auto industry, says Renault boss | Auto Express

Renault boss, Luca de Meo’s strategy to save Europe’s car industry includes a bigger role for hydrogen

www.autoexpress.co.uk

Reading between the lines, He is not suggesting Hydrogen ICE he is suggesting Hydrogen Fuel cells to compliment a Battery. So the motive engine will still be electric.

And he doesn't address the issues of producing H2 economically or in the quantities that will be required.

There are still more questions than answers about H2.

 

[Buckman]

There are still more questions than answers about H2.

That has applied to many things in the past that now are in common day usage i.e. the electric light bulb, telephone, computers etc.

• A rocket will never be able to leave the earth’s atmosphere – New York Times 1936
• When the Paris Exhibition closes (1878), electric light will close with it and no more will be heard of it – Oxford professor Erasmus Wilson
• The world potential for copying machines is 5000 at most – IBM to the founders of Xerox, saying the photocopier had no market large enough to justify production 1959
• I must confess that my imagination refuses to see any sort of submarine doing anything, but suffocating its crew and floundering at sea – H G Wells, British novelist 1901
• The idea that calvary will be replaced by these iron coaches is absurd. It is a little short of treasonous – Comment of Aide-de-camp to Field Marshal Haig at tank demonstration 1916
• “How sir would you make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck? I pray you excuse me I have not the time to listen to such nonsense” - Napoleon when told of Robert Fulton’s steamboat 1800s.
• There will never be a bigger plane built – A Boeing engineer after the first flight of the 247, a twin engine plane holding 10 people
• A wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to no one in particular – Associates of David Sarnoff responding to the latter’s call for investment in the radio in 1921
• No it will make war impossible – Hiram Maxim inventor of the machine gun in response to the question “Will this gun not make war more terrible?” from Havelock Ellis and English scientist 1893
• There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home – Ken Olsen, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corporation in a talk given to a 1977World Future Society meeting in Boston
• No one will pay good money to get from Berlin to Potsdam in one hour when they can ride his horse there in one day for free – King William of Prussia on trains 1864
• Television won’t last because people will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night. Darry Zanuck, movie producer 20th Century Fox 1946
• The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty – a fad. President of the Michigan Savings advising Henry Ford’s lawyer not to invest in the Ford Motor Co 1903
• X-rays will prove to be a hoax – Lord Kelvin president of the Royal Society 1883
• I think there is a world market for maybe five computers – Thomas Watson chairman of IBM 1943
• Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers unable to breathe would die of asphyxia – Dr Dionysius Lardner 1830
• This telephone has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us – Western Union internal memo 1876
• There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will- Albert Einstein 1932