Speed Limit Changed?

[Killerpete]

Is it me or has the speed limit on the motorways changed for towing a caravan?

Reason for asking, on a resent holiday to the lakes I was surprised by the number of vehicles towing vans that were overtaking me on the motorway, and I was doing 60 mph in our TerranoII with our Elddis Hurricane on the back.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

No its still 60 Peter but there are a lot of vanners who think they are above the law. Also your Terrano like my Maverick at 60 is probably only really doing about 55. If you have a sat nav compare the speeds.

Brian

 

[Viking1]

Peter

the same happened to me last week. When we where on ower way back for Wales.

Mark

 

[Geordie]

I think we all agree that the most annoying thing on motorways nowadays is the fact that trucks have limiters and we have all seen the end product of that bit of road safety genius. Now take that to caravan level and what will we get, exactly the same as hgv's. Trailers are restricted to 60mph but how many stick to the limit, and do they ever concern us, NO,so why all the hullaballoo when another caravan goes past doing more than 60. Motorway speed limit(cars) 70mph but hands up all those who have gone over that speed, ? ? ? ?. Yes I know about vans flipping, snaking, etc etc but these things just dont happen on their own,and I'll lay a wager that not all flipped vans were the result of being towed at a tad over 60. I have witnessed vans being towed like mobile chicanes well below 60 and the occupants of the car rocking back and forth in time with van swaying and they are oblivious to whats happening behind them. As far as Im concerned there is more to towing than the big 60

 

[Steve L]

The speed limit has not changed it is still 60Mph on the motorway.

It's just the number of mindless morons who have gone up!!

Who in their right minds would risk killing their family or writing off 15k of van and 20k of car just to get there 20 mins early on a 200 mile jurney.

After all whats the rush, you have the hotel on the back of the car.

Towing is plenty fast enough for the average driver. Lets not forget it's not getting the outfit going thats the tricky bit (you just floor the gas pedal), it's doing the 60Mph emergencey stop thatget's the ticker going and the eyes popping out on stalks!!

Steve L.

 

[rayc]

The towing speed limit is the same for all towed trailers. It is not set on any scientific basis just a general feeling that if the speed limit is 70 for a solo car then the limit for one towing should be lower. What may be safe for one e.g. a caravan, may be decidedly not for another e.g. plant towed behind a utility company van (well not some of the examples that I see on the road every day).

The problem is that with government being obsessed with speed limits, we have become limit concious and not excessive speed concious. I have seen plenty of towed units that I wouldn't tow at 60mph whilst there are many that are safe above it.

Generally I agree, and comply with, the 50 & 60mph limits that apply to towing vehicles within the UK but do not get hung up about it - it is only an arbitary limit. In my opinion there is much more danger in driving on downhill sections at an excessive speed for the unit - the Fench are very good at this in having specific limits for towed vehicles at known trouble spots and also wind socks on exposed sections warning of side winds.

 

[rayc]

peter , you have obviously made the decision to stick to the speed limit and feel perfectly safe driving at it. If the limit were raised to 65 mph tomorrow, ( very unlikely in the present climate I know), would you then drive at it or keep your speed down to 60?

 

[Killerpete]

Have to hold my hands up ray, (as geordie asked) due to one reason or another I have had cause to go over 60 and with the Terrano not realy felt any difference, did how ever notice with my mondeo.

If the speed limit went up I'd drive at it, but not above unless I had to. Don't see the point in paying out money in fines and getting 3 points on the licence and paying more in insurance, and then spending the rest of my time moaning about it all for a the sake of saving time.

 

[JoannaLesley]

I wonder how many people out there go and buy a caravan and it never occurs to them that there might be rules about how they are used! This relates to weight (how many vans have you seen recently whose noseweight is obviously too high) as well as speed limits. I bet those same people don't know that there are width limits in this country either. They probably don't care about any of it and their chances of being stopped are pretty low.

 

[JohnI.Stephen]

I agree with your summary Ray (c); speed limits are nothing more than an arbitary limit which, as law abiding citizens, we should nevertheless follow. However, like you (and unlike a number of respondents to this post), I certainly don't get heated-up if (say) an outfit passes me going at well over the 60 mph limit - provided it appears safe to do so.

The question I ask myself is, when I take my caravan to the continent for the first time next year (e.g. German autobahn); what speed will I tow at; 60; 70 or 80 mph? The answer is simple; I will tow at a speed that feels completely safe for the prevailaing conditions; and if that's 70mph, then good; if it's 55 mph, then good also.

John

 

[Lutz]

I'm afraid 80kph (50mph) is the speed limit for caravans in Germany - as in most other Continental countries except France and Belgium, John. (You will see some in Germany with a 100kph sticker going faster but they have to be approved for the higher limit first.)

 

[MAM]

Dear All,

Any views on Brian comments regarding the accuracy of the speedos? Are cars still 10% under or are they more accurate these days?

 

[Killerpete]

Mike,

I don't think its a case of speedos being out, its more likely being sat nav being naf.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Mike,

Car speedometers rely on a whole series of interrelating physical effects - that the correct tyres are fitted, that the correct pressure is used, that the tyres are new, and then a modern speedometer - the type that counts electrical pulses from a sensor - will still under read by an amount.

Typically when I'm driving at an indicated 100 kph, my C270 is over-reading by 3 kph on brand new tyres. The main reason for this discrepancy is to make sure that the manufacturer is never accused of under indicating the true speed - and causing you to fall foul of a speed trap.

Older speedometers used a spinning horseshoe shaped magnet to bend a needle against a spring - and 10% errors were common.

Satellite navigation systems are more accurate than the capabilities of the display - if it says 100 kph then the actual speed will be between 99.5 and 100.5 kph - but the whole number display can't differentiate. If the Sat Nav screen could be programmed to display 1 decimal place then the speed would be between 99.9 and 100.1 - but there is no need to know the speed that accurately.

My classic Libelle sailplane also uses a Sat Nav system to log positional information, height and speed - and certificated to FAI standards for international competitions - and the accuracy is comparable to my car Sat Nav (for speed).

Robert

 

[vi]

With regard to Lutz's posting how does one know whether a caravan is approved for 100kph rather than the lower normal limit?

thanks

Vi

 

[Guest]

In Germany I believe caravans have to be fitted with shock absorbers to enable them to travel at higher speeds. I have shocks fitted to my vans and have always towed at around 60MPH in Germany and have never been hassled.

I do not like travelling in a convoy style, and find to many in the UK pull into the safe distance gap I keep between us and the vehicle in front.

Using more accuraten Satnav 60 mph rather than speedo 60mph keeps us out of caravan and lorry type convoys.

A little over the limit to get quickly out of potential dangers ways is OK by me at times.

 

[Lutz]

The following conditions must be fulfilled in order to get 100kph approval for Germany:

1. The weight ratio must be no more than 100% (this was changed recently from 80%)

2. The tyres must be rated for at least 120kph and they must not be more than 6 years old.

3. The towing vehicle must be fitted with ABS

4. The caravan must be fitted with hydraulic shock absorbers (dampers).

5. The noseweight must be set to be at the permitted maximum.

It may, however, be difficult to get 100kph approval for a foreign-registered outfit because the 100kph sticker must bear the seal of the vehicle licensing office.

 

[Guest]

May be it is my imagination Lutz but when in Germany I've always had plenty of German Caravanners pass me and over the German border your country mens 50 mph habit is VERY quickly left at home.

 

[Lutz]

Like everywhere else, going faster than the speed limit allows is a bit like Russian roulette. 95 times out of 100 you can expect to get through unscathed.

German police generally don't have a habit of setting up speed traps along the autobahn where there is no overall speed limit, just to catch those vehicles which are limited, such as HGV's or cars towing caravans. Usually one will only find them where there is already a 100kph, or lower, speed limit. They are most vigilant in roadwork areas, often limited to 60 or 40kph.

 

[Lutz]

Like everywhere else, going faster than the speed limit allows is a bit like Russian roulette. 95 times out of 100 you can expect to get through unscathed.

German police generally don't have a habit of setting up speed traps along the autobahn where there is no overall speed limit, just to catch those vehicles which are limited, such as HGV's or cars towing caravans. Usually one will only find them where there is already a 100kph, or lower, speed limit. They are most vigilant in roadwork areas, often limited to 60 or 40kph.

ps: As yet, there are only bilateral agreements between countries regarding following up traffic offences and many German drivers are aware that they will not be followed up once out of the country, except for on-the-spot fines. Besides, many static speed traps outside Germany take a picture of the vehicle from the rear. In Germany, only photos in which the driver can be identified are accepted so, if they've been lucky enough to have returned home to Germany before receiving the summons, German law applies and they can legally refuse to pay the fine.

 

[JohnI.Stephen]

Oh dear; 80kph (50 mph) does seem very slow indeed. In good conditions even 90kph (56 mph)is about as slow as I can comfortably go. I imagine that the HGVs are speed governed so that they cannot exceed their legal maximum?

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

A note for Rob_jax

The accuracy of Sat Nav systems cannot be guaranteed, and in fact most manufactures will quote positional errors in the region of +/- 5M at best.

As the speed is calculated from the positional reading,. Any errors in those readings will be translated into speed indication errors.

As the positional errors are not speed dependant, then mathematically, the calculated speed [(P2-P1)/Time] will be at a maximum at low speeds, and decrease as the speed increases.

The problem is exacerbated with a fast sampling rate, and typically GPS samples every second so if you consider a vehicle travelling at 50Kmph (Approx 32mph) then each second it will cover 13.9M/S. If both positional fixes P1 and P2 are out by 5m, then the Sat Nav may calculate your distance as low as 13.9-10 =3.9M/S or as high as 13.9+10= 23.9M/S.

These equate to 14. Kmph and 86Kmph.

Factors that will increase errors are: fewer satellites in view which deteriorates the positional accuracy further. Some concerns have been raised about the contribution that driving up and down hills has as most Sat Navs do not account for the additional distance that a hill produces compared to a 2 dimensional map.

Factors that improve performance, increased number of satellites to more accurately fix your position, Averaging techniques to iron out sporadic excessive events, Longer journeys that allow the errors to partly cancel out.

All in all Sat Nav can represents a general improvement in accuracy over mechanical speedometers, but they can also be substantially wrong, and the major difficulty is that most systems do not give the margin of error as a constantly updated piece of information to the driver.

Another Factor to consider is the rounding of data, so at what real speed does the Sat Nav show the next incremental increase? For 50Kmph is as low as 49.1 or is it as high as 50.9?

you could be travelling at 50.9 MPH which your Sat Nav indicates as 50, but a speed camera sees as 51, so what margin of error should you allow? I suggest a minimum of 1 digit so in a 50MPH area drive at an indicated 49 etc.

Just because Sat Navs are digital, it does not mean they are accurate.

 

[Guest]

A note for Rob_jax

The accuracy of Sat Nav systems cannot be guaranteed, and in fact most manufactures will quote positional errors in the region of +/- 5M at best.

As the speed is calculated from the positional reading,. Any errors in those readings will be translated into speed indication errors.

As the positional errors are not speed dependant, then mathematically, the calculated speed [(P2-P1)/Time] will be at a maximum at low speeds, and decrease as the speed increases.

The problem is exacerbated with a fast sampling rate, and typically GPS samples every second so if you consider a vehicle travelling at 50Kmph (Approx 32mph) then each second it will cover 13.9M/S. If both positional fixes P1 and P2 are out by 5m, then the Sat Nav may calculate your distance as low as 13.9-10 =3.9M/S or as high as 13.9+10= 23.9M/S.

These equate to 14. Kmph and 86Kmph.

Factors that will increase errors are: fewer satellites in view which deteriorates the positional accuracy further. Some concerns have been raised about the contribution that driving up and down hills has as most Sat Navs do not account for the additional distance that a hill produces compared to a 2 dimensional map.

Factors that improve performance, increased number of satellites to more accurately fix your position, Averaging techniques to iron out sporadic excessive events, Longer journeys that allow the errors to partly cancel out.

All in all Sat Nav can represents a general improvement in accuracy over mechanical speedometers, but they can also be substantially wrong, and the major difficulty is that most systems do not give the margin of error as a constantly updated piece of information to the driver.

Another Factor to consider is the rounding of data, so at what real speed does the Sat Nav show the next incremental increase? For 50Kmph is as low as 49.1 or is it as high as 50.9?

you could be travelling at 50.9 MPH which your Sat Nav indicates as 50, but a speed camera sees as 51, so what margin of error should you allow? I suggest a minimum of 1 digit so in a 50MPH area drive at an indicated 49 etc.

Just because Sat Navs are digital, it does not mean they are accurate.

John. I'm not sure what Satnav accuracy has to do with this thread.

But you are wrong with your detail!

In theory Satnav can give a false reading on hills, in practice most do not.

In both our cars for example on level ground the speedo is 2mph out ( both X5's), running on winter wheels it changes to about 2.5mph. On mountains the difference between car speedo and Satnav rarely differs, and the Satnav's give elevation readings!

When satnav loses correct positioning very occasionaly it still gives the same speed readig as I understand speed reading does not fully relate to "ALL" the positioning data and current Satnavs are far more accurate speed wise than any speedo. Driving on level highways where you will get optimum Satnav speed accuracy you can easily see the diffences. Once you know the difference between speeedo and s n it does not matter where you are driving, if your speed is 3 MPH out on Brighton sea front it will still be 3mph out down the side of Alp d'Huez.

Some Satnav speed warning systems rely on S N own speed readings, the purveyors of the systems could be sued if the S N speed readings used for alerts lead to prosections for speading, I understand that world wide this has not been an issue yet!

 

[chris_5068897]

I agree with your summary Ray (c); speed limits are nothing more than an arbitary limit which, as law abiding citizens, we should nevertheless follow. However, like you (and unlike a number of respondents to this post), I certainly don't get heated-up if (say) an outfit passes me going at well over the 60 mph limit - provided it appears safe to do so.

The question I ask myself is, when I take my caravan to the continent for the first time next year (e.g. German autobahn); what speed will I tow at; 60; 70 or 80 mph? The answer is simple; I will tow at a speed that feels completely safe for the prevailaing conditions; and if that's 70mph, then good; if it's 55 mph, then good also.

John

John I think that approach is right. We generally go to France where speed limits on certain roads are higher than UK. I have travelled at the 130KPH limit where allowed but only because the much lower traffic density made me feel ok with the speed. In the UK I'm ok too with 60MPH since its much busier.

 

[Steve L]

I realy don't know why you lot are gabbleing on about sat nav's as speed checkers.

Your speedo is for that and PC plod will still book you wether or not the sat nav said you were doing 5mph less thaan the speedo.

What Pete was getting at was the rediculas speeds at which some folk drive.

Steve.