Surprised at lack of comment on caravan industry economic issues.

[Hutch]

A friend has just leased a Toyota Yaris Hybrid, it came with a solar panel for the windscreen, Not a good advert for reliability.,

 

[Dustydog]

The "problem" with using 20-80% is that the range is therefore reduced to 60% of the already optimistic WLTP range figure quoted by manufacturers

That’s my main gripe in this thread.
Everything Tobes has said is true .
But the EV industry is imo disingenuous in the way they describe their achievable “range”.
Of course we could also say the mpg claims of ICEs is also flawed😉

 

[otherclive]

That’s my main gripe in this thread.
Everything Tobes has said is true .
But the EV industry is imo disingenuous in the way they describe their achievable “range”.
Of course we could also say the mpg claims of ICEs is also flawed😉

But ICE cars fuel consumption as described by the WLTP test figures are known to be optimistic. They can only really be used for comparitive purposes between vehicles. So if they are optimistic that also affects the range too. But ICE owners don’t seem bothered by it, I guess it’s because they just call in to a fuel station for a fill up.

 

[otherclive]

A friend has just leased a Toyota Yaris Hybrid, it came with a solar panel for the windscreen, Not a good advert for reliability.,

Surely you jest???

 

[Buckman]

At the same time it protects the seller from unreasonable claims for poor batteries (not faulty batteries) to the point where if a buyer tried to make a CRA claim for a battery with a poor charge capacity, the claim can be moderated based on the information that formed the contact of sale which described the state of the battery.

As far as I am aware the buyer cannot make a claim for a specific item on a unit. It has to be the whole unit being unfit for purpose due to a faulty part.

 

[Buckman]

A friend has just leased a Toyota Yaris Hybrid, it came with a solar panel for the windscreen, Not a good advert for reliability.,

I am not aware of any Yaris with a solar panel for the windscreen as that is not standard? Our Yaris has been in the garage for the past 10 days due to roadworks in our village and took it out yesterday. No issue starting it and was able to drive out the garage using battery.

 

[Buckman]

But ICE cars fuel consumption as described by the WLTP test figures are known to be optimistic. They can only really be used for comparitive purposes between vehicles. So if they are optimistic that also affects the range too. But ICE owners don’t seem bothered by it, I guess it’s because they just call in to a fuel station for a fill up.

Our hybrid is spot on with consumption figures. Manufacturer state 38mpg and is what we are achieving. Being a bit of an anorak when it comes to cars, I keep logs of costs, consumption and always do brim to brim refills.

 

[ProfJohnL]

As far as I am aware the buyer cannot make a claim for a specific item on a unit. It has to be the whole unit being unfit for purpose due to a faulty part.

That is I believe true, but I used the battery as an example. If a s/h BEV is sold with notice of the battery's condition, that becomes part of the description. Consequently, the customer cannot use the fact the battery condition being poor as a reason to reject the car, as the condition was part of the description.

 

[RogerL]

But ICE cars fuel consumption as described by the WLTP test figures are known to be optimistic. They can only really be used for comparitive purposes between vehicles. So if they are optimistic that also affects the range too. But ICE owners don’t seem bothered by it, I guess it’s because they just call in to a fuel station for a fill up.

IC owners can ignore the range inaccuracy in WLTP figures because the range is so big - multiplying WLTP consumption by tank size gives a range of 960 miles for my Touareg - the fact that real world range is "only" 750 miles isn't an issue on any UK journey.

The problem is WLTP regardless of energy source but is particularly useless for hybrids because the test starts from cold with a full battery.

I find the American EPA figures more typical, once the gallons have been converted - but relatively few cars are sold on both sides of the Atlantic in essentially the same specification.

I miss the original official figures we had here with steady speed figures for 56mph and 75mph plus an urban figure which were better than anything since at estimating actual consumption.

 

[Buckman]

That is I believe true, but I used the battery as an example. If a s/h BEV is sold with notice of the battery's condition, that becomes part of the description. Consequently, the customer cannot use the fact the battery condition being poor as a reason to reject the car, as the condition was part of the description.

Understood. It would be a very foolish buyer you then went ahead with the purchase knowing that they would have an outlay of £5k for more in the near future. However not sure about the description part as surely other clauses in the CRA 2015 could be used to reject the vehicle? Plus it could be regarded as an Unfair term as the vehicle is being sold in an "sold as seen" term.

 

[RogerL]

Understood. It would be a very foolish buyer you then went ahead with the purchase knowing that they would have an outlay of £5k for more in the near future. However not sure about the description part as surely other clauses in the CRA 2015 could be used to reject the vehicle? Plus it could be regarded as an Unfair term as the vehicle is being sold in an "sold as seen" term.

It's always been the case that a fault disclosed before sale cannot be subsequently used as a claim against the seller - that's not the same as "sold as seen".

Even if an EV battery shows a lower than optimal % capacity there's no way of knowing accurately how long that battery will last

 

[otherclive]

Seeing the number of elderly Nissan Leafs around surely they haven’t all had to have replacement batteries. Certainly their range will have reduced with usage but that’s a feature battery physics. If they were bought for a second car then even with an ageing battery they can still do the job.

PS the range wasn’t great from Day 1 for the Leaf.

 

[Buckman]

It's always been the case that a fault disclosed before sale cannot be subsequently used as a claim against the seller - that's not the same as "sold as seen".

Even if an EV battery shows a lower than optimal % capacity there's no way of knowing accurately how long that battery will last

That is true, but I did not put it across very well. If the buyer accepts the condition and drives away in the car and the battery then fails for whatever, maybe it is possible that could put the driver and passengers in a life threatening situation i.e. car comes to a stop on the motorway.

Therefore car is unsafe to drive and the repercussions would probably be on the dealer. As said it would be a very foolish driver that goes ahead with such a purchase and probably deserves all they get?

 

[RogerL]

Seeing the number of elderly Nissan Leafs around surely they haven’t all had to have replacement batteries. Certainly their range will have reduced with usage but that’s a feature battery physics. If they were bought for a second car then even with an ageing battery they can still do the job.

PS the range wasn’t great from Day 1 for the Leaf.

I've seen reports that the older Leafs with the smaller battery are excellent value for those only doing short journeys - they're significantly cheaper than the larger batteried Leafs and are unfashionable due to their uncommon charger plug.

The incidence of battery failure is very low, even lower than EV advocates originally suggested but there seems to be public paranoia that they regularly fail soon after the original warranty expires.

 

[Sam Vimes]

My daughters Leaf is about 13 years old now. The first battery never failed, it was just the range was becoming less acceptable. So they got a refurbished battery that improved things considerably.

They only do fairly short journeys in it.

That's the only thing they've had any issues with.

 

[Buckman]

I've seen reports that the older Leafs with the smaller battery are excellent value for those only doing short journeys - they're significantly cheaper than the larger batteried Leafs and are unfashionable due to their uncommon charger plug.

The incidence of battery failure is very low, even lower than EV advocates originally suggested but there seems to be public paranoia that they regularly fail soon after the original warranty expires.

Please explain about uncommon charger plug? I don't think that there is any public misconception about battery failing as soon as car is out of warranty however the concern is the cost of a possible battery replacement on a second hand car even if the car is well looked after and in immaculate condition.

Granted the same could be said of any ICE vehicle, but it is generally parts associated with the main engine block that may fail i.e. fuel system, exhaust, etc and they are a lot cheaper to repair than battery replacement.

I am not sure, but in the unlikely event if a battery on an EV failed and it needed to be replaced, probably only the brand dealer would be able to do the replacement as only the brand dealership would have access to the necessary software and know how. We are all aware that dealerships charge a lot more for labour and parts than the local repair shop.

 

[Sam Vimes]

My daughter got her battery replaced by an independent garage. Admittedly in New Zealand which is a little bit far away from here.

As for ICE engines....do people consider Timing Belt replacement life when buying new or used. If it goes then a replacement engine would be expensive.

 

[Hutch]

Surely you jest???

I jest not, he had a 2024 Yaris Hybrids and was forever calling out the AA to start the car, after 6 months he took the leased car back and got another Yaris, which has a different engine and battery, Toyota also supplied a solar panel that fits on the windscreen bulkhead, to overcome the problem.
Google Toyota Yaris Hybrid , starting problems.

 

[otherclive]

That is true, but I did not put it across very well. If the buyer accepts the condition and drives away in the car and the battery then fails for whatever, maybe it is possible that could put the driver and passengers in a life threatening situation i.e. car comes to a stop on the motorway.

Therefore car is unsafe to drive and the repercussions would probably be on the dealer. As said it would be a very foolish driver that goes ahead with such a purchase and probably deserves all they get?

So ICE cars don’t fail in an unsafe manner. What about Puretech engines? My son had an early model Focus that would just cut out and the fault could not be traced and it wasn’t just his car that was affected. Seemed to be some interaction with the aircon system. He got rid of it as at the time he was commuting along the M4 into Reading.

 

[otherclive]

My daughters Leaf is about 13 years old now. The first battery never failed, it was just the range was becoming less acceptable. So they got a refurbished battery that improved things considerably.

They only do fairly short journeys in it.

That's the only thing they've had any issues with.

That’s interesting as it shows that once the benefits of scale are achieved aftermarket solutions become available.

 

[ProfJohnL]

That is true, but I did not put it across very well. If the buyer accepts the condition and drives away in the car and the battery then fails for whatever, maybe it is possible that could put the driver and passengers in a life threatening situation i.e. car comes to a stop on the motorway.

Therefore car is unsafe to drive and the repercussions would probably be on the dealer. As said it would be a very foolish driver that goes ahead with such a purchase and probably deserves all they get?

This is nothing new. and certainly not just an EV specific scenario. I have known an ICE car that had a faulty 12V battery : that stranded the owner in the off side lane of major dual carriage way.

The historical bank of evidence which is growing as more people take on EV's is showing the rate of battery failures are much ,MUCH lower than for other mechanical failures which not only apply to EV's but all other types of motive drive.

I personally have experience a Saab which without warning dropped into crawl home mode just as I was accelerating to join a motorway. And my first Passat whose cam belt tensioner broke just 2K miles after it had been fitted. Both of these placed me in real danger.

An EV battery that is aged and has a reduced charge capacity, does not suddenly stop the car, the cars control systems will give plenty of warnings to the driver about low charge, and certainly enough to enable the sensible driver time to get to a charger, or to have enough time to find a "safe place to stop".

I conclude EV's batteries are statistically less likely to fail and immobilise a car, than any number of other mechanical items which are also used in most other motor vehicles.

 

[otherclive]

Our hybrid is spot on with consumption figures. Manufacturer state 38mpg and is what we are achieving. Being a bit of an anorak when it comes to cars, I keep logs of costs, consumption and always do brim to brim refills.

That seems quite a low mpg especially as you say it's about in line with the official figures. Mines rated at 48.8-49.6 mpg for the 2WD. Toyota did make big changes between the 4th generation and 5th generation but I wouldn't have expected that big a difference compared to yours even though yours is based on the 4th generation platform. Even on a motorway trip to the Lakes I got nearer 50mpg even with minimal "E" input.

 

[RogerL]

Please explain about uncommon charger plug? I don't think that there is any public misconception about battery failing as soon as car is out of warranty however the concern is the cost of a possible battery replacement on a second hand car even if the car is well looked after and in immaculate condition.

Granted the same could be said of any ICE vehicle, but it is generally parts associated with the main engine block that may fail i.e. fuel system, exhaust, etc and they are a lot cheaper to repair than battery replacement.

I am not sure, but in the unlikely event if a battery on an EV failed and it needed to be replaced, probably only the brand dealer would be able to do the replacement as only the brand dealership would have access to the necessary software and know how. We are all aware that dealerships charge a lot more for labour and parts than the local repair shop.

The Nissan Leaf uses the Chademo connector which is uncommon.

The fact that you express concern about having to replace a battery is itself a misconception - the failure rate of EV batteries is very low, lower than the engine failure rate in IC cars which itself is very low - the gradual reduction in battery capacity is also lower than expected.

A neighbour has just had to have a new engine in a Kia Niro - cost about £10,000, so more expensive than an EV battery and more likely to occur.

I'm very much a sceptic about switching from diesel to EV but battery failure rate isn't part of it.

 

[RogerL]

So ICE cars don’t fail in an unsafe manner. What about Puretech engines? My son had an early model Focus that would just cut out and the fault could not be traced and it wasn’t just his car that was affected. Seemed to be some interaction with the aircon system. He got rid of it as at the time he was commuting along the M4 into Reading.

IC cars can fail in an unsafe manner - cambelt failure in the outside lane of a busy motorway with no hard shoulder is a frightening experience - power steering goes, brake servo goes - got the T-shirt!

 

[Tobes]

Please explain about uncommon charger plug?

The Nissan Leaf (launched in 2011 in the UK) used an AC charging plug on the car called a type 1 (compatible with any current AC charger using a type 1 to type 2 charging lead) and a separate DC charging system call CHAdeMo (prevalent in Japan). The rest of Europe subsequently standardised on AC type 2 and DC Type 2 CCS (combined charging system) that uses a single plug on the car with a DC extension.

The first DC rapid chargers in the UK were CHAdeMo based, but soon augmented with type 2 CCS. Type 2 CCS is now the standard in Europe and all new cars (except the Lexus UX for some totally stupid reason) come with type 2 CCS.