The Hydrogen Powered Vehicle??

[Dustydog]

Hopefully more car manufacturers like Hyundai will make this possible.
Not sure about the refuelling stations?
Possibly a better way forward than electric? Copied from an Engineering article.

JCB has officially secured approval across Europe for its revolutionary hydrogen combustion engine, marking a major breakthrough in eco-friendly construction technology. Eleven European licensing authorities, including those from the Netherlands, Great Britain, Germany, France, Spain, and more, have certified the engine for commercial use, paving the way for a cleaner, greener future in the industry.
With a massive $122 million investment and over three years of dedicated research, JCB’s team of 150 expert engineers has developed a powerful, emission-free alternative to traditional diesel engines. This cutting-edge hydrogen technology not only reduces carbon emissions but also supports the global push for sustainable energy solutions in construction and heavy machinery.
This approval is a historic milestone in the shift toward carbon-neutral construction, proving that hydrogen-powered heavy equipment is not just a concept—but a real, viable solution for the future. JCB is now leading the charge in green innovation, setting a new industry standard for sustainable heavy machinery.
Are hydrogen engines the future of construction? JCB is making sure they are!

 

[otherclive]

Hydrogen makes great sense for heavy use vehicles such as construction applications, trucks etc. A number of car manufacturers have offered hydrogen options, but take up has been very limited and they weren’t/aren’t a commercial success. So I suspect that over the foreseeable future it’s going to be a mixed approach for vehicle power sources with EV being predominant in the lighter applications.

I read recently that a consortium are looking to produce underground storage caverns in salt layers. If it goes ahead it could initially take gas for storage, then move to hydrogen as more green hydrogen becomes available. There is already one hydrogen storage cavern in the north east.

UK Energy Storage The UK’S Largest Underground Salt Cavern Hydrogen Storage Project

UK Energy Storage will build the UK's largest Hydrogen storage site, with up to 2 billion cubic metres of hydrogen capacity providing up to 20% of the UK’s predicted hydrogen storage needs in 2035.

ukenergystorage.co.uk

 

[GUMPY]

Hydrogen is a non starter for road use.
Why would you use an energy source that takes 4 times the energy to produce than using the energy in a BEV.
It's like having a petrol/diesel car that does 10 mpg rather than 40 mpg with no difference in performance.
Not to mention a complete absence of filling stations.

 

[Dustydog]

Hydrogen is a non starter for road use.
Why would you use an energy source that takes 4 times the energy to produce than using the energy in a BEV.
It's like having a petrol/diesel car that does 10 mpg rather than 40 mpg with no difference in performance.
Not to mention a complete absence of filling stations.

Sadly there are people at HMG who want all fossil fuels abandoned asap😥.

 

[woodsieboy]

Would it be possible to convert existing ICE vehicles to run on hydrogen in the same way that some convert to LPG?

 

[otherclive]

Would it be possible to convert existing ICE vehicles to run on hydrogen in the same way that some convert to LPG?

It’s possible but why would you, LPG would be a better option as currently there are more outlets, but they are reducing.

Hydrogen Vehicle Conversion | Truro, Cornwall

Are you interested in Hydrogen Vehicle Conversion? Soguard Hydrogen Production UK Ltd is based in Truro, Cornwall and we provide expert advice on installing hydrogen production equipment. Find out more about converting your vehicle and reducing emissions.

www.soguard.uk

 

[Buckman]

There are vast quantities of hydrogen stored around the planet. The big advantage is that most ICE vehicles can be converted to run on hydrogen. All they need is to find an economical way to extract the hydrogen to use in vehicles. All EVs will become redundant over night and people will not be able to sell them on.

On Thursday looking for a replacement car of OH and wandering around a forecourt, there were a number of the newish second hand EVs up for sale at very good prices. The same ICE vehicle was at a higher price. Dealer was struggling to sell the EVs for some reason even at a much lower price.

 

[otherclive]

There are vast quantities of hydrogen stored around the planet. The big advantage is that most ICE vehicles can be converted to run on hydrogen. All they need is to find an economical way to extract the hydrogen to use in vehicles. All EVs will become redundant over night and people will not be able to sell them on.

On Thursday looking for a replacement car of OH and wandering around a forecourt, there were a number of the newish second hand EVs up for sale at very good prices. The same ICE vehicle was at a higher price. Dealer was struggling to sell the EVs for some reason even at a much lower price.

The car market seems to be in a state of flux. Many EVs have lost more in 12 months than some ICE loose in 36 months. The market has been seriously affected by the effects of the mandated sales targets which if not achieved result in punitive “ fines per car” levied against a rising year on year target. This may be amended given ongoing consultations. But private purchases of new EV are lower than expectations and company registrations are good given the financial benefits to those in work.

However good news for private buyers is the depreciation on pre owned electric cars make them affordable.

Today’s Parkers show some of the EVs with the biggest depreciation. Wonder if Mel or Tobes daughter work for Parker’s. ?

First year depreciation wins: the 10 best nearly new car deals

First year car depreciation can work in your favour. You can save massively on a nearly new car. We've picked the 10 best deals available right now!

www.parkers.co.uk

 

[RogerL]

Hydrogen is a non starter for road use.
Why would you use an energy source that takes 4 times the energy to produce than using the energy in a BEV.
It's like having a petrol/diesel car that does 10 mpg rather than 40 mpg with no difference in performance.
Not to mention a complete absence of filling stations.

The logic behind hydrogen production is that it uses excess electricity when wind and solar are producing more than we're consuming - in effect free electricity so the physical efficiency doesn't matter.

There weren't any petrol stations when petrol cars first took to the roads - if there's demand hydrogen filling stations will be built.

 

[woodsieboy]

i was thinking towards after the deadline for sales of ICE cars, and it seems from what I have just seen that hydrogen conversions may be viable, the advantage to me would be time saved filling and no need to replace existing ICE vehicle plus presumably existing mechanics/ technicians would be able to continue servicing the vehicles. I get the lpg argument, but fear supplies of lpg could become limited.
I recently put my 2021 Santa Fe in to WBAC and was amazed to see that it has only dropped £6k since I bought it. nearly 4 years ago.
Looking for a like for like comparison on Autotrader , none were available, a similar Kia Sorento showed only 4 within 100 miles and all more expensive.
It feels to me as if diesel owners are planning on keeping their existing vehicles

 

[RogerL]

i was thinking towards after the deadline for sales of ICE cars, and it seems from what I have just seen that hydrogen conversions may be viable, the advantage to me would be time saved filling and no need to replace existing ICE vehicle plus presumably existing mechanics/ technicians would be able to continue servicing the vehicles. I get the lpg argument, but fear supplies of lpg could become limited.
I recently put my 2021 Santa Fe in to WBAC and was amazed to see that it has only dropped £6k since I bought it. nearly 4 years ago.
Looking for a like for like comparison on Autotrader , none were available, a similar Kia Sorento showed only 4 within 100 miles and all more expensive.
It feels to me as if diesel owners are planning on keeping their existing vehicles

Diesel fuel will be around for a long time as the automobile industry has hardly started* developing EVs to replace 44 tonne artics.

* I'm aware of Tesla's HGV but it's only suitable for hauling lightweight loads

 

[ProfJohnL]

I seriously doubt that Hydrogen will become the fuel of choice for private transport for a number of reasons.

For starters, as has already been mentioned the cost of producing hydrogen is presently significantly more expensive and energy inefficient compared the BEV solutions. Granted this could change if some major breakthrough is found to produce it cheaply, and easily. Even using excess electricity production to electrolyse water, the cost of setting up enough production points to meet the demands of all transport needs will still be astronomical.

The second reason is we do not have the supply infrastructure in place to move hydrogen to its point of sale or use. And one of the reasons is you cant simply use the existing pipework or tanker systems as Hydrogen is exceptionally searching, and pipes that happly carry other gas products are not leak proof against hydrogen. Even today withe the specialist handling systems for hydrogen in use at steam reforming plants, storage and transport it is estimated at least 10% of all hydrogen produced is lost to leaks. COnsider the cost of trying to uprate present pipelines to be sufficiently leak proof!

Thirdly , whilst in theory most IC engines could be converted to run on hydrogen, the cost of converting would most likely be eye-watering. and definitely not without its challenges. Its also worth noting that vehicle efficiencies will not improve, the thermodynamics if internal combustion engines are well known and its especially difficult to exceed 35% thermal efficiency, That means what happens to day will still happen with Hydrogen where typically 70% of the fuel you put into amd IC vehicle is simply wasted as excess heat to the atmosphere. Also contrary to popular belief, the output of the IC engine will continue to produce some noxious gas emissions which are the inevitable side effect of burning fuel under high pressure, along with noise and vibrations all of which are pollutants. These engines will still need lubricants some of which will get past piston rings and thus burnt in the power cycle. The only thing is there will be less pollution from these engines, but not zero.

The fourth point which I present to you is to do with the storage of hydrogen in sufficient quantity to make it viable for personal transport. Present day car fuel tanks, can the produced in many different shapes from thin walled materials. so the can be squeezed into difficult spaces inside the cars form. Bearing in mind that the most space efficient storage of hydrogen is in very high pressure vessels. Because of size of the Hydrogen atom which allows it to escape so easily, there are limited materials that can be used to safely hold Hydrogen under pressure. These materials often need to be shaped to improver their structural integrity to hold the gas under such high pressures. consequently when trying to convert an petrol IC vehicle to run on hydrogen, the space available for a hydrogen tank will be severely restricted, and in many cases the amount of hydrogen that can be stored safely on board will be severely limited. In a number of example trials test vehicles have had less than 100 miles worth of Hydrogen.

There will be places in the world where Hydrogen may be the best solution, but in most car owning societies it will need a massive reduction in production costs, and a massive expansion of new infrastructure and customer orientated facilities to have any chance usurping the lead BEV's have established.

 

[toad a caravan]

Is there a sufficient electric supply and infrastructure available at present ,is there a sufficient copper supply at present,is the man power available to obtain an ICE free zone in the near future?

 

[otherclive]

Is there a sufficient electric supply and infrastructure available at present ,is there a sufficient copper supply at present,is the man power available to obtain an ICE free zone in the near future?

Three good questions. Wrt number 1 most charging is likely to be overnight when the demands on the grid are lowest. During day there will be less charging demand. But it could be supplemented by battery banks, or transfers from other non used vehicles. Copper ……..who knows. Manpower to install infrastructure definitely a possible issue as there are manpower issues affecting several areas of employment and the time taken to install and connect renewable infrastructure is deterring investment and delaying progress.

 

[toad a caravan]

I'm curious to see what "pans out"⚡

 

[IanB1485]

You had better tell the people on Orkney that hydrogen is a non starter as they produce lots of the stuff from unwanted electricity and power their buildings with hydrogen fuelled boilers and also other types of plant, some Ferries are converting over to hydrogen power. Not seen any hydrogen fuelled cars there yet but they will come -The Toyota Mirai can be bought in the UK.(Japan is going to import 'blue hydrogen' from China to run various systems off it) Also new Worcester Bosch condensing boilers can run on natural gas/ hydrogen mixes, ready for when the gas network starts to introduce hydrogen into the system. Its coming gentlemen

 

[trevormonty]

Hydrogen has some limited case uses in construction equipment. Being able to work in confined space (building basement, mine) as exhaust is water. This is also same market that EV construction equipment are used in.

 

[Mel]

Is there a sufficient electric supply and infrastructure available at present ,is there a sufficient copper supply at present,is the man power available to obtain an ICE free zone in the near future?

My nephew did his PhD on some sort of predictive algorithm about electricity supply for EVs. The details of this are beyond me, but apparently balancing supply and potential demand is “very tight”. 😀
Mel

 

[ProfJohnL]

Three good questions. Wrt number 1 most charging is likely to be overnight when the demands on the grid are lowest. During day there will be less charging demand. But it could be supplemented by battery banks, or transfers from other non used vehicles. Copper ……..who knows. Manpower to install infrastructure definitely a possible issue as there are manpower issues affecting several areas of employment and the time taken to install and connect renewable infrastructure is deterring investment and delaying progress.

I cant comment regarding other countries but in the UK the grid operators have repeatedly stated they believe the grid can handle the in increased number of EV's charging within its planned strategies of maintenance and refurbishments, and the use of smart charging. This is even more possible with the spread of home and industy based solar arrays and local battery storage to spread the load.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hydrogen has some limited case uses in construction equipment. Being able to work in confined space (building basement, mine) as exhaust is water. This is also same market that EV construction equipment are used in.

Whilst it is largely true that hydrogen powered IC predominantly produce water as their main exhaust product , and its certainly a lot cleaner than either Petrol or diesel alternatives, so it makes a huge difference, Water is not the only exhaust product these units will produce.

If you run anu piston engined vehicle without lubrication it will quickly seize up, The pistons and their rings need some lubrication that is searching enough to be able to creep past the ring seals to keep them lubricated. That is continually going to leave very thin film on cylinder wall which will be burnt along with the hydrogen. It will be exhausted as ash and other debris along with the water in the exhaust. The quantities in a well maintained engine will be small but these can be some of the most serious pollutants we find in todays exhaust emissions. This is one of the inevitable issues with IC engines regardless of the fuel used.

 

[toad a caravan]

Mel I notice you say planned,HS2 comes to mind,,I forget the next nuclear reactor I think it's Hinckley point,,wonder when that will come on line,,that was planned as necessary to meet"present day demands" years ago.

 

[toad a caravan]

I remember at one time 1000mls per gallon of oil could be achieved if you was lucky,then they stopped making side valve engines.l would rightly or wrongly assume a hydrogen powered engine made to present tolerances would eventually wear,this would show up on its MOT,as at present

 

[GUMPY]

Mel I notice you say planned,HS2 comes to mind,,I forget the next nuclear reactor I think it's Hinckley point,,wonder when that will come on line,,that was planned as necessary to meet"present day demands" years ago.

By all accounts we are four to six years away from Hinckley Point C being finished.🤔

 

[otherclive]

By all accounts we are four to six years away from Hinckley Point C being finished.🤔

Not so long ago we were promised eight new reactors by 2030🙈
I think any introduction of SMR will take longer than advocates realise.

 

[GUMPY]

Every UK infrastructure project seems to take twice as long as projected.
Also double or treble the cost.