The Hydrogen Powered Vehicle??

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Jun 20, 2005
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With wind and solar, you are not being held to ransom. You are experiencing freedom from the ransom that you are paying the whole of the rest of the time. These are different things

The reason for my OP was for interest in technology development in the real working setting.I am sure JCB have considered the storage and production of H otherwise what’s the point of the exercise.

I really thought we had all grown out of the EV / ICE debates on cost and pollution etc.🙀

My old boss told me back in the 70 s “ there is no such thing as a free lunch”.😎
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hydrogen is also one of the most abundant gases in the universe so chances are of depleting sources is just about impossible and it is a better stop gap than solar and wind farms. Also a lot cheaper to convert an ICE vehicle to gas than to convert it to battery only. It also means that possibly trillions will be saved by not scrapping old vehicles.

With wind and solar we are being held to ransom by nature when wind does not blow and there is no sunshine and it is greedy people building these wind and solar farms so nothing different there.
Hydrogen may be the most abundant gas in the universe, but that is totally irrelevant as so far no one has worked ut how to collect it from th euniverse beyond our world. It how accessible it is in our world that is the problem. As I pointed out if we try to take natural Hydrogen from under ground, once its been used its gone, and just as with coal and oil, it has a finite quantity. Just like Lidl's Middle Isle once its gone its gone!

Its irresponsible usage of natural reserves that has accelerated the world climate change problems, why start to use another, when there are viable alternatives.

It questionable if Hydrogen would be a better stop gap, if it were It would have already been exploited more, but it hasn't becasue its not viable as there is so little infrastructure or engineering around to use it for Transport, and many other applications.

If you research Hydrogen uses, you will discover that huge amounts are already constantly being used in lots of other processes, so if natural stored hydrogen was a viable source, why hasn't anybody stared already to exploit it? Simply because its very expensive to extract and control.
 
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Nov 11, 2009
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With wind and solar, you are not being held to ransom. You are experiencing freedom from the ransom that you are paying the whole of the rest of the time. These are different things

The reason for my OP was for interest in technology development in the real working setting.I am sure JCB have considered the storage and production of H otherwise what’s the point of the exercise.

I really thought we had all grown out of the EV / ICE debates on cost and pollution etc.🙀

My old boss told me back in the 70 s “ there is no such thing as a free lunch”.😎
I actually think the thread has been conducted in a positive manner, with few if any contentious comments. But as things stand at present hydrogen may have a use for certain vehicle applications primarily at the heavier end of the range, or where electric charging facilities are not available.

When I was working the problem faced was how to get rid of hydrogen as a non required by product.
 
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Jul 23, 2021
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With wind and solar, you are not being held to ransom. You are experiencing freedom from the ransom that you are paying the whole of the rest of the time. These are different things

The reason for my OP was for interest in technology development in the real working setting.I am sure JCB have considered the storage and production of H otherwise what’s the point of the exercise.

Agree - and I think it is an interesting post and development. Finding ways to power plant equipment without needing fossil fuel _is_ important.

I really thought we had all grown out of the EV / ICE debates on cost and pollution etc.🙀

My old boss told me back in the 70 s “ there is no such thing as a free lunch”.😎
This was not about ICE / EV, just a response to the comment that renewables hold us to ransom of nature.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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This was not about ICE / EV, just a response to the comment that renewables hold us to ransom of nature.
And then what gets used to make EVs and so it all starts again😉. I sensed the start of the old chestnut raising its head but pleased you say otherwise👍

I’d like to know more how JCB intend using their H power kit in the field.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Doing a quick search it’s quite clear that at the heavy end companies are seriously considering hydrogen. Komatsu have a medium digger with hydrogen fuel cell, a French port has container movers powered by hydrogen, and a company have converted some Liebherr construction machines to hydrogen. So momentum is growing.
 
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Nov 6, 2005
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I actually think the thread has been conducted in a positive manner, with few if any contentious comments. But as things stand at present hydrogen may have a use for certain vehicle applications primarily at the heavier end of the range, or where electric charging facilities are not available.

When I was working the problem faced was how to get rid of hydrogen as a non required by product.
Hydrogen may find it's niche with off-grid development sites, where JCB vehicles are often found - it may well be more practical to have a tanker full of hydrogen delivered to site to refuel the construction trucks than organising a connection to the nearest point on the national grid capable of recharging all those construction trucks overnight.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Hydrogen may find it's niche with off-grid development sites, where JCB vehicles are often found - it may well be more practical to have a tanker full of hydrogen delivered to site to refuel the construction trucks than organising a connection to the nearest point on the national grid capable of recharging all those construction trucks overnight.
Not dissimilar to a tanker turning up at leisure parks where Calor is used for heating and cooking for accordion and services.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Not dissimilar to a tanker turning up at leisure parks where Calor is used for heating and cooking for accordion and services.
This is true, though tanking and delivering hydrogen is a very different proposition to tanking and delivering LPG.

It _may_ make sense for true off grid engineering (for example building HS2 or new roads), but for anything that is in arms reach of power, you potentially have the option for a local grid connected splitter for water or direct battery charging.

At the other end of the spectrum - I found this very interesting. Case are making battery powered plant equipment aimed at the landscaping and small building projects. Running for 8 hours and then having the possibility to fully recharge on a domestic supply for the next day seems totally usable.
View: https://youtu.be/VeQz8k2-lQk?si=1gPjp_B1OLKg3-bF
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Out of idle curiosity I found This

There are lots of others too. Maybe Hydrogen powered vehicles are not so far away.
But cost may spoil the mix😜
 
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Jul 23, 2021
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Out of idle curiosity I found This

There are lots of others too. Maybe Hydrogen powered vehicles are not so far away.
But cost may spoil the mix😜
Maybe :) According to this data sheet the plastic light weight (22KG) G20 cylinder holds 424g of hydrogen at 300 bar. Enough hydrogen to generate 7kWh of electricity with a
50% efficient fuel cell, or about 21 to 28 miles of range in an FCEV.

A hydrogen combustion engine is more like 30% efficient, so closer to 13 to 20 miles range.

The hydrogen costs just over £100 and (as far as I can tell) is not produced by electrolysis, but by steam reformation of methane (i.e. - it releases CO2). I.e. from a CO2 perspective, you may as well stick with diesel or LPG, which is also going to be something like 25 to 30 times cheaper.

On the other hand the £100 would buy something like 1400kWh of electricity at today's night time price, which is around 4200 to 5600 miles of range.

From an economics perspective, hydrogen has a long way to go to even catch up with fossil fuel - never mind battery solutions.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I recently heard a radio programme about shipping. They claimed that presently world wide shipping was responsible for 3% of CO2 pollution. Most heavy ships use heavy oil ( almost like tar) as their fuel. Is the dregs that remain from the refining processes of other lighter fuels.

There is a concern that as world transport moves away from the traditional Petrol and diesel fuels there will be less refining and possibly the availability of heavy oil will decrease, which could affect world wide shipping.

Some shipping lines have been researching alternatives. Whist Batteries and electric motors may well suit short hop routes like ferries, other present day fuels are too refined and expensive and would put costs up astronomically.

As has been suggested else where "What about Hydrogen?" The storage problems relating to the volume of storage necessary to provide motive power for large cargo ship was estimated to use up to a third of the cargo capacity, which presents both engineering and economic challenges.

But someone has spotted that a lot of hydrogen we produce these days is converted into ammonia (NH3), which is hydrogen rich by density. Its considerably easier to contain and compress or cool down to a liquid phase(-33C) than pure hydrogen.

Engineers are working on an engine that can burn ammonia, and there is a growing expectation that it could be the beginnings of an alternative low carbon propulsion system.

Its not without its downsides though. There are several significant hazardous issues, any leaks of Ammonia in habitation areas or work spaces pose sever risks to humans or other animals.

Spills of ammonia will over time dilute in sea water, but whilst there is even only low concentrations it is fatal to marine life.

In most practical internal combustion engines (ICEs), burning Ammonia will usually form nitrogen oxides (NOx), nitric oxide (NO), nitrogen dioxide (NO2), and nitrous oxide (N2O).

We also have to consider how the majority of Ammonia is presently produced through a process called the "Haber–Bosch process in which nitrogen (N2) and hydrogen (H2) react at high pressure (80 to 300 atm) and high temperature (300 to 500 °C) in the presence of a catalyst (usually magnetic iron oxide, Fe3O4) to form ammonia: N2 + 3H2→ 2NH3 (2)." (Wickipedia)

This is highly energy dependant process which usually used Hydrogen derived from Steam Reforming which has also a high energy dependant process.

This is still a research project, and from these brief checks it still seems to have a lot of awkward dilemmas to resolve before it as any chance of becoming a commercially viable scheme, But the teams are still working on it so who knows what new low cost manufacturing schemes they may come up with.
 
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