The Logistics of towing a 2.5meter wide caravan with a regular large saloon or estate car.

[Surfer]

To be honest Surfer, the mirror law is very obscure (pardon the pun), It just states that any mirrors fitted must give adequate rearward vision. It's down to the individual police officer to decide if he thinks you can see behind sufficiently. So if you get stroppy with the law, the law will win!!!!

That just isn't so. The law is not obscure and there are enough references in other sources which also carry the weight of the law to help any police officer judge what is "adequate" rearward vision.

I have asked on several occasions for you to supply links to British law where it specifically states distance, viewing angle etc but you always avoid this preferring to rely on a diagram supplied by Milenco who want to sell mirrors. As for directives they are not always applicable in the UK.
Also as stated previously I do use extension mirrors although there is no need for them. All they do is save me from craning my neck to see the rear of the trailer.

 

[Lutz]

Ok Lutz.
How is it then that a custom car can have a mirror the size of a tennis ball and still be legal, or a scooter can have 50 mirrors as per Dusty's picture and still be legal. Then you get the caterpiller buses with mirrors the size of coffee tables.
Simples!
The basic law and construction & use MOT regs in the UK only make a righthand mirror mandatory on a car.

With the implementation of The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use)(Amendment)(No.4) Regulations 2005, the field of vision (and other) requirements as laid down in EU Directive 2003/97/EC apply in the UK, too.
For further details read the explanatory note in that amendment.

 

[Lutz]

I have asked on several occasions for you to supply links to British law where it specifically states distance, viewing angle etc but you always avoid this preferring to rely on a diagram supplied by Milenco who want to sell mirrors. As for directives they are not always applicable in the UK.

But I have. Just read my previous post in this thread.
Furthermore, the diagram that I posted was not supplied by Milenco but was copied out of the directive to which the law refers. The sketch that was put out by Milenco and that someone else posted basically shows the same details except that it was simplified slightly.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Beehpee,

I can understand your bemusment at the detail of the debates that can arise when dealing with matters like this. You may find them tedious, but they are about very real matters.

As with all things of life in Britain, you have freedom of choice, but if you transgress a a law or regulation and you are called to book about it you have to suffer the consequences which can be costly.

There are a lot of regulations that relate to towing caravans, and many are being rewitten or new ones being introduced through the UK's arrangements with the EU. Often these creep in without a fanfare and the first we know of them is when someone has been caught out by them.

Ignorance is no defence in law, and worse is deliberately flouting them when they are known.

Towing regulations are not simple, they're quite complex in the way they interact, and when a contributor suggests a solution to a problem that contravenes the regulations the only proper course of action is to highlight the error and suggest a legal solution. Often that needs an explanation which is where the detail becomes necessary.

Time and time again, contributors claim that their "common sense" solution to a situation has worked, yet under scrutiny it is found to be none compliant with regulations. This proves that "common sense" is unreliable and often misguided. It is irresponsible to let such suggestions go unchallenged, especially where it may lead a reader into copying an unsafe or illegal practice.

Ultimately it is up to the reader to decide what they do, but if it is none compliant then they must understand that they must bear the risks, and accept the consequence if their approach is challenged at law.

 

[NigelHutson]

As a former Police Traffic officer I used to use the following as a guide with regards to mirrors. If you can see the rear corners of the caravan/trailer (and I mean the corners - I would have a colleague stand at the rear of the 'van at the corner) then the view is adequate. If you can't, it isn't. Despite prosecutions, it was never challenged by a "not guilty" plea. Very often, the towing vehicle's own mirrors would give the width outwards, but it was the sides of the caravan/trailer, and being able to see what's immediately behind that were more of an issue.

 

[Lutz]

Basically, that's what the law requires, Nigel, and you acted correctly. The law is a bit more specific, but what you did as a police officer does not conflict with the wording.

 

[NigelHutson]

Lutz,
T'is good old common sense in this case too!

 

[Surfer]

I have asked on several occasions for you to supply links to British law where it specifically states distance, viewing angle etc but you always avoid this preferring to rely on a diagram supplied by Milenco who want to sell mirrors. As for directives they are not always applicable in the UK.

But I have. Just read my previous post in this thread.
Furthermore, the diagram that I posted was not supplied by Milenco but was copied out of the directive to which the law refers. The sketch that was put out by Milenco and that someone else posted basically shows the same details except that it was simplified slightly.

Obviously you never read the explanatory note as it refers to exterior mirrors and not extension mirrors!

 

[Lutz]

Obviously you never read the explanatory note as it refers to exterior mirrors and not extension mirrors!

And since when are extension mirrors not exterior mirrors?????????
There's no note saying that extension mirrors are exempt from the requirements relating to exterior mirrors, either.

 

[Gafferbill]

.....interesting to note that there is no UK law that says you must look in your mirrors even if they do conform to legal requirements

 

[Lutz]

I would have thought that that sort of thing is covered in the Highway Code.

 

[Gafferbill]

................The Highway Code only states what "should be done" by a driver in respect of the use of mirrors.
Not what must be done!

 

[Surfer]

Obviously you never read the explanatory note as it refers to exterior mirrors and not extension mirrors!

And since when are extension mirrors not exterior mirrors?????????
There's no note saying that extension mirrors are exempt from the requirements relating to exterior mirrors, either.

There is a very big difference as an exterior mirros is fixed to the car whereaas the extension mirror is an accessory. The EU directive refers to the exterior mirrors as fitted by the manufacturers!

 

[Parksy]

There is a very big difference as an exterior mirrors is fixed to the car whereas the extension mirror is an accessory. The EU directive refers to the exterior mirrors as fitted by the manufacturers!

You're really clutching at straws now Surfer!
The EU directive simply mentions the fact that mirrors which comply with the requirements of the directive must be fitted but the directive makes no mention of who fits the mirror.
There is no point in continuing to nit pick or to try to score points about towing mirrors, anyone who is buying new towing extension mirrors can find plenty of practical and sensible advice on the internet without needing to know the exact wording of every piece of legislation regarding mirrors.

 

[Lutz]

There is a very big difference as an exterior mirros is fixed to the car whereaas the extension mirror is an accessory. The EU directive refers to the exterior mirrors as fitted by the manufacturers!

Exactly, Parksy. There is no mention anywhere in the directive that accessories are treated in any other way than factory-fitted items and I can't find any reference in the directive that it refers only to mirrors fitted by the manufacturer.
By the way, the same applies to towbars, too. They are often an accessory item fitted by the owner or dealer and yet, they too, must be type approved according to the EU Directive that applies to them.

 

[Gafferbill]

…….if Surfer is not a ‘Wind up Merchant’ perhaps he has a problem of receiving information third hand.

Information from a UK Government website might help!http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285

This is the relevant part…………..

Fit towing mirrors if you need them
If your caravan or trailer is wider than the rear of the towing vehicle, you must by law fit suitable towing mirrors.
These mirrors are usually 'E-marked' (mirrors with this mark meet EU requirements).
If you're towing blind (without towing mirrors) or using unsuitable mirrors, you can be:

: prosecuted by the police
: given three points on your licence
: fined up to £1,000

 

[Surfer]

…….if Surfer is not a ‘Wind up Merchant’ perhaps he has a problem of receiving information third hand.

Information from a UK Government website might help!

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285

This is the relevant part…………..

Fit towing mirrors if you need them
If your caravan or trailer is wider than the rear of the towing vehicle, you must by law fit suitable towing mirrors.
These mirrors are usually 'E-marked' (mirrors with this mark meet EU requirements).
If you're towing blind (without towing mirrors) or using unsuitable mirrors, you can be:

: prosecuted by the police
: given three points on your licence
: fined up to £1,000

The link is a very good one but still does nor link to the actual regulation that determines when towing mirrors should be used and what adequate view is. I am not nit picking, but if advice is to be offered lets get it right first time by linking or quoting the specific piece of legislation instead of speculations based on some marketin g blurb.
I have tried to find the specific legislation and admit I failed but I have been hoping that someone will provide the correct info realting to british law as EU directives are fairly meaningless unless written into the law of that country.

 

[Dustydog]

Come on Surfer
Gafferbill has very kindly quoted a Government website which imo cogently sets out the requirements of towing and mirrors.
Who cares that so far no one can say it is Section A, subsection 42 , and paragraph 144.
The fact is only an idiot would tow without a clear rear view. As a motorcyclist I'd hate to be responsible for knocking a biker off just because he was hidden in a blind spot that I could have avoided!

 

[Lutz]

I have tried to find the specific legislation and admit I failed but I have been hoping that someone will provide the correct info realting to british law as EU directives are fairly meaningless unless written into the law of that country.

Surfer, you are still continuing to ignore the reference in The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use)(Amendment)(No.4) Regulations 2005, that the field of vision requirements as defined in the EU directive have therewith been incorporated in UK law.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Dustydog and to you all following my post. Dustydog if the mirrors that you are using are the Smat Nord then you are absolutely correct. As per my intention to update my original post with my findings after some Drawing Board research and scaled out versions of the original image (Milenco) that was in the Camping & Caravanning Club magazine of January 2010. As far as"Adjustments" I can confirm that the original bar that allows mirror head movement is not sufficient to give a truly good image of the very rear of our 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco. It is 2.258mtrs wide (74") and shipping length of 7.876mtrs (25' 10"). I have been to B&Q and bought a 1mtre length of 12mm Aluminium rod for £5.38p. I have cut 2No lengths at 5" (127mm) longer than the original ones. My car is exactly 81" (2057mm) tip-tip of fitted mirrors(2000 (W) Volvo V70 2.4T SE Geartronic) this will now put the outer edges of my Smat Nord mirrors at the maximum for "OLDER CARS" at 200mm beyond the widest point of the caravan; on each side.
If these extra length bars give an image that would stand bringing in a little they can be shortened back a bit at a time, I will be travelling with a Japanese Model Makers Razor Saw. They cut on the backstroke and are a very fine set and tooth type.
The real issue is with the "Whole Hog 2.5mtr caravan. That would/should/could involve a further 4.5" (114mm). That is with my present Tow-car and not running off to get a Chelsea Tractor.
My next research exercise is into the greater width of the standard mirror fitments on 4x4's.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all that may still be following this post. I have been to storage and lined up the car BANG ON with the caravan as though it was towing in a straight line. I have fitted the now extended Smat Nord mirrors to the Volvo V70 2.4T SE Geartronic. The images in the mirrors now allow me to see the very rear of the van on both sides (the awning rails). In truth the extended length rods need trimming back 20mm to each side to stay perfectly legal. With the year of registration of my car I am limited to the mirrors projecting a maximum of 200mm further than the widest points of the caravan (the spats over the wheel arch openings).
I am lead to believe that the Milenco Grand Aero mirrors will permit a view down both sides of a 2.5mtr caravan on my car,that is 121mm wider,each side than my van on my car. I DON'T THINK SO. If I was to extend my Smat Nord mirrors by a further 134.5mm I might just be able to accomplish with a 2.5mtr caravan what I have done to-date with my SuperSirocco on the back.
I don't think that the Milenco Grand Aero has that range of adjustment on the existing arms.
I started this post off in the light of the likelihood of 2.5mtr caravans being towed in the UK by a regular saloon car or estate car.
A regular width saloon or estate car when viewed from the front will resemble an Albatross in flight.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi to you all that may still be following this post. I have been to storage and lined up the car BANG ON with the caravan as though it was towing in a straight line. I have fitted the now extended Smat Nord mirrors to the Volvo V70 2.4T SE Geartronic. The images in the mirrors now allow me to see the very rear of the van on both sides (the awning rails). In truth the extended length rods need trimming back 20mm to each side to stay perfectly legal. With the year of registration of my car I am limited to the mirrors projecting a maximum of 200mm further than the widest points of the caravan (the spats over the wheel arch openings).
I am lead to believe that the Milenco Grand Aero mirrors will permit a view down both sides of a 2.5mtr caravan on my car,that is 121mm wider,each side than my van on my car. I DON'T THINK SO. If I was to extend my Smat Nord mirrors by a further 134.5mm I might just be able to accomplish with a 2.5mtr caravan what I have done to-date with my SuperSirocco on the back.
I don't think that the Milenco Grand Aero has that range of adjustment on the existing arms.
I started this post off in the light of the likelihood of 2.5mtr caravans being towed in the UK by a regular saloon car or estate car.
A regular width saloon or estate car when viewed from the front will resemble an Albatross in flight.

Hi Travelling Rooster
My Smat Nords are quite big mirrors and imo very securely mounted to the ome mirrors. Hence little vibration. the extra length you have added sounds good to me and something I will try if we ever go that far in width.
With our Sorie and a 7'6" wide caravan I can see very clearly down each side . I suspect with an even wider model I have sufficient spare to continue my uniterrupted view. I'll cross that bridge in the future but like you do not anticipate a real problem.