Thetford Fridge Venting In to Coachman VIP 460/2

[ericd2477]

Problem is fumes coming into caravan when using Thetford Fridge on GAS.
I have been caravanning for 30 years now and have used Fridges on Gas most of that time. Electrolux, Dometic and Thetford (Norcold) over that time I have had Two major problems with them .
1. Electrolux Fridge fitted incorrectly and vented fumes into Caravan . This nearly killed our family. But was a simple fix as the fridge vent missed the external flue when assembled at Lunar.
2. Thetford N97 Fridge Venting fumes into Coachman 470/2 Caravan - Solution was to try to reseal cabinet.
Then it was a list as long as my arm of Faults with the Thetford N97 Fridge Burners x 4 , Circuit Board, Digital Display and finally the fault that killed it corrosion of the Gas Cooling unit vented all the gas and Thetford could not supply a new one. £800 for new fridge.

So I got a New Caravan and compromised on the Fridge Thetford. I thought they must have sorted the problems out by now .
How wrong was I !!! Been out in the van 5 times now and the fumes are that strong my wife wont sit on the same side as the fridge.

I removed the vent covers and to my horror it was the same setup of a flue which vents into the Cabinet but worse than before because Coachman have fitted a Double Baffle at the top of the Cabinet which actually Traps the Hot Gasses Inside the Cabinet.

This would NEVER be allowed in a HOUSE WHY is it ALLOWED in A CONFINED CARAVAN ???????

 

[Raywood]

This sounds very dangerous if the exhaust gas from the fridge is getting into the caravan. I would be looking first towards Trading Standards who might take action as a technical report would be needed. If the set up is that dangerous then there is a serious risk to life and action needs to be taken.
Have you contacted Coachman to see what they say?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Problem is fumes coming into caravan when using Thetford Fridge on GAS.
I have been caravanning for 30 years now and have used Fridges on Gas most of that time. Electrolux, Dometic and Thetford (Norcold) over that time I have had Two major problems with them .
1. Electrolux Fridge fitted incorrectly and vented fumes into Caravan . This nearly killed our family. But was a simple fix as the fridge vent missed the external flue when assembled at Lunar.
2. Thetford N97 Fridge Venting fumes into Coachman 470/2 Caravan - Solution was to try to reseal cabinet.
Then it was a list as long as my arm of Faults with the Thetford N97 Fridge Burners x 4 , Circuit Board, Digital Display and finally the fault that killed it corrosion of the Gas Cooling unit vented all the gas and Thetford could not supply a new one. £800 for new fridge.

So I got a New Caravan and compromised on the Fridge Thetford. I thought they must have sorted the problems out by now .
How wrong was I !!! Been out in the van 5 times now and the fumes are that strong my wife wont sit on the same side as the fridge.

I removed the vent covers and to my horror it was the same setup of a flue which vents into the Cabinet but worse than before because Coachman have fitted a Double Baffle at the top of the Cabinet which actually Traps the Hot Gasses Inside the Cabinet.

This would NEVER be allowed in a HOUSE WHY is it ALLOWED in A CONFINED CARAVAN ???????

I am very sorry to read of your experiences. The fitting of gas fridges should be subject to the Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations, which firstly set out the products must be installed safely and in accordance with the manufacturers instructions. Being a gas burning product a caravan fridge should be constructed and installed using room sealing techniques which will provide adequate segregation between the gas and flue circuit and the living space.

Whilst that might appear to suggest a perfect seal should be the norm, in fact there are permitted leak rates determined by the gas consumption of the burner. There is no way a consumer could reasonably check for the installations compliance with the regulations and so you have to rely on the design and constructional prowess of the manufacturer and dealer.

I in no way wish to diminish the seriousness of what has happened to you, and I can understand your sensitivity to the matter. What does really surprise me is that your experience was attributed to the fridge. The reason I question it is because the fridges burner is a relatively small 100 to 150W. Even if this were discharging into the living space, the amount of fixed ventilation that is a regulatory requirement should have diluted any build up of dangerous products of combustion.

When you also consider that the cooker hob has burners of much greater capacity and the fixed ventilation is designed to mange that it really highlights my reason to wonder if the fridge was the only problem your older caravan had?

Having raised my concern, It still doesn't detract from your need to be certain about your appliances, and I support Rays suggestions.

 

[ericd2477]

Not Contacted Coachman but have contacted dealer who is having a look at it in 8 weeks time

 

[Dustydog]

Exactly when did you take delivery of your new Coachman ?
8 weeks to look at a potential gas rated problem does seem a long time.

 

[ericd2477]

This is a photo of the gap between the baffles which allows the fumes to rise into the gap between the wall an cabinet . As a mechanical engineer I could have done better with my eyes shut

 

[ProfJohnL]

This is a photo of the gap between the baffles which allows the fumes to rise into the gap between the wall an cabinet . As a mechanical engineer I could have done better with my eyes shut

I don't think its wise to link to a Facebook page. And I could not see a picture of the gap you relate.

 

[ericd2477]

Got caravan end of January this year , it was one they had got stuck with but brand new

 

[Parksy]

This is a photo of the gap between the baffles which allows the fumes to rise into the gap between the wall an cabinet . As a mechanical engineer I could have done better with my eyes shut

I've edited your comment and the quote from the Prof to remove the link to your​ Facebook account Eric .
To post pictures to the message boards
please see the instructions on the Our Website message board.

 

[Dustydog]

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act?gclid=CjwKEAjw9MrIBRCr2LPek5-h8U0SJAD3jfhtQn60bLjf2PMMErlpRXf7ypRiPCrxaCekWXp8mq3NChoCsbTw_wcB
Eric.
Read the above. Tell the Dealer you are fully conversant with the Consumer Credit Act. The two months delay to check your caravan is far too on so you would like an immediate refund.
Hopefully they will move rapidly!

 

[Damian]

Quote " I in no way wish to diminish the seriousness of what has happened to you, and I can understand your sensitivity to the matter. What does really surprise me is that your experience was attributed to the fridge. The reason I question it is because the fridges burner is a relatively small 100 to 150W. Even if this were discharging into the living space, the amount of fixed ventilation that is a regulatory requirement should have diluted any build up of dangerous products of combustion."

I have dealt with many such problems with Thetford fridges and it comes as no surprise whatsoever that the OP had this problem.

On at least two occasions I arrived at caravans at about the same time as the ambulance as the occupant was so ill they had to be hospitalised.

When I got my flue analyser out to check the output of the fridge it went to overload before I got near the exhaust and overdosed the analyser.

When the analyser finally sorted itself out and I got within a foot of the vent outside the van it went to over 1000PPM and inside it went over 900ppm.

I have raised this problem years ago and asked the question as to what idiot decided that it was OK to let a gas flue vent inside a vehicle and rely on the good workmanship of the builder to ensure adequate room sealing, knowing how shoddily caravans are actually built.

As far as permitted leaks goes, there are levels of CO present in the atmosphere, but there are strict levels which cannot be exceeded, and in the case of CO from Thetford fridges it is way above those limits when the burner is not working correctly.

I think Thetford are very lucky that there has not been a death , yet, but it is just a situation waiting to happen.

It is , in my opinion , the reason that if anyone has a Thetford fridge they get it serviced every year by a good engineer and get a readout of the combustion results.

Your life is dependent on foam seals and hoping that the fridge has actually been fitted properly.

 

[chrisn7]

Well put Damian. I too was astonished to see venting into the void behind the fridge on my 2011 van. I noted that the fridge is sealed to the vans outside wall with foam, but relies on close fit furniture for internal 'sealing'

Having fitted my own fridge fans, I will use this if ever on gas, as that will at least will cause a negative pressure to force the ventilation

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Damian,

My own experience was only with Electrolux fridges, before I retired, I am frankly amazed at such figures you mention from such a small flame.

 

[Dustydog]

I need to check the caravan papers. I swear when we bought her new she came with two certificates signed by an authorised Bailey employee confirming the gas and electrical installations were correctly installed and working safely.
surely such certification should have included the fridge.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I need to check the caravan papers. I swear when we bought her new she came with two certificates signed by an authorised Bailey employee confirming the gas and electrical installations were correctly installed and working safely.
surely such certification should have included the fridge.

Correct Dusty

 

[Damian]

I need to check the caravan papers. I swear when we bought her new she came with two certificates signed by an authorised Bailey employee confirming the gas and electrical installations were correctly installed and working safely.
surely such certification should have included the fridge.

I can tell you that two manufacturers that I have personally been to do NOT check the flue gas on any of the appliances, they simply check that they will light.

Also, according to the regulations relating to new installations the pipework must be tested to 120Mb, but the manufacturers only test to 37Mb as they say that only that pressure will be used, they seem to ignore the possibility of regulator failure and cylinder pressure gas entering the system.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

I took the top fridge vent off today to see if I had access to the kitchen tap that I need to replace. No access to the tap as all panels behind and around the fridge were sealed along their edges with black sealant. The only time we get fumes coming into the van is when the kitchen window is open as it's directly above the vent and 'scoops' the fumes in.

Our fridge is on the off side but some vans have them on the near side, so where do the fumes go when an awning is attached?

 

[Damian]

Quote " so where do the fumes go when an awning is attached? "

Into the awning !
However, there is so much ventilation that any CO is quickly diluted, but in warm and hot weather the temp inside the awning can and does reach 100 degrees which shuts the fridge down.

 

[20170602yuanyuan]

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[Coachvip]

I know I’m joining this thread very late but I’m interested in any further information as I have a similar problem in a 2013 Coachman VIP 460 when the Thetford fridge is used on gas.

I too don’t understand why a metal deflector is fitted BELOW the combustion flap which is intended to seal the gap between the top of the fridge and wall. Is this common in other caravan brands?

After attempting to improve the sealing and reduce combustion products trapped between the two flaps I now get about 15ppm CO inside the caravan - which seems much too high?
Could be exacerbated by poor combustion?

Are the combustion flap and side seals replaced when the fridge has a full service?

I’m trying to understand this subject better before getting the fridge serviced.

 

[Damian]

I fail to see how a deflector can be fitted below the top edge of the fridge due to the cooling matrix and associated bits and pieces making it impossible to seal.
Any deflector must be attached to the back, top edge of the fridge and just above the top of the upper vent.

Your fridge producing what you say is 15ppm inside is dangerous and you should get it serviced and the burner replaced as soon as possible, and certainly not use it on gas until you have done so.

The maximum it should be producing at the actual flue is 0.003ppm

 

[Coachvip]

Thank you for the prompt response and additional information,

I certainly won't use the fridge on gas before it has a full service!

Just to clarify, there is a metal deflector attached to the caravan wall immediately below the top of the upper fridge vent - but it does not bridge the gap. It is below the combustion flap which is attached to the top rear of the fridge and slopes up to the caravan wall where it is supposed to seal the gap

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Damian,

Having spotted this thread I suspect there has been a misunderstanding.

Whilst the OPs "15ppm CO" is indeed high for a living space, and it warrants further investigation , the level you suggest of "0.003ppm" is impacticably low. Did you actually mean "ppm" or were you actually refering to CO/CO2 combustion ratio which is just a number not a "ppm"?

 

[Damian]

Hello Damian,

Having spotted this thread I suspect there has been a misunderstanding.

Whilst the OPs "15ppm CO" is indeed high for a living space, and it warrants further investigation , the level you suggest of "0.003ppm" is impacticably low. Did you actually mean "ppm" or were you actually refering to CO/CO2 combustion ratio which is just a number not a "ppm"?

Don't even start to question my posting !!
The numbers I have given are what I expect to find when testing.
As I am Gas Safe registered I think I know what to expect and what I do not.
Are you Gas Safe or are you just reading from books !!

A properly serviced and working LPG burner should only produce CO2 and H2O, NOTHING else.

 

[Craigyoung]

Hello Damian,

Having spotted this thread I suspect there has been a misunderstanding.

Whilst the OPs "15ppm CO" is indeed high for a living space, and it warrants further investigation , the level you suggest of "0.003ppm" is impacticably low. Did you actually mean "ppm" or were you actually refering to CO/CO2 combustion ratio which is just a number not a "ppm"?

Don't even start to question my posting !!
The numbers I have given are what I expect to find when testing.
As I am Gas Safe registered I think I know what to expect and what I do not.
Are you Gas Safe or are you just reading from books !!

I think this is a time where you's start your own topic debate as suggested from recent posts !!!