Tow Car Info / Advice

[TopCat1]

Hi Peeps,
I am looking for a bit of advice regarding towcar performance for you experienced vanners.
In view of current domestic financial stresses I am looking to find a cheaper tow car for my 1500 kg MTPLM Bailey Indiana. I am considering either a Kia Sportage/Hyundai Tuscon, a Hyundai Santa Fe or possibly a Kia Sorento around £7k . I know the Sorento with 2.5 ltr will pull it ok but would prefer to have a slightly smaller more economical diesel. However, I am a little concerned that the others some with only 111 BHP and a torque of only 192 lbs ft might be a little weak in the pulling department especially on some of the continental roads. If I go for the 2 ltr at 139BHP and 136lbs ft as in the Sportage/Tuscon I think it would be a better bet. I would also like auto.
I would very much like to hear your views / experiences with any of these smaller engined motors please.
Thanks very much.

Top Cat

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Top Cat,

There is bound to be a difference in performance between tow cars especially where enging powers are differnt. There is a general consensus that says more power is better, but what is the definition of better? The question I think you are asking is how little power is adequate?

Again there is long standing consensus that suggests that anything less than 40BHP per tonne is not really adequate for towing. That was certainly true a few years ago when most tow cars used petrol, but the advent of more (and better ) diesel engines with much better torque at low RPM may make that figure for diesels nearer 35BHP/T (Don't forget that most HGV have no more than about 20BHP per tonne and soem as low as 7.5BHP/T)

At these levels you won't get sports car perfomance, and the outfit may have trouble maintaining 60mph on some motorway inclines, but it will pull away from traffic lights without causing undue millenium to pass. you will get from A to B. and you will get the benefit of better MPG especialy when solo.

Fortunately the car manufactures do actual testing to determine the maximum size of trailer the vehicle can tow, so provided your caravan does not exceed the manufactuers towing limit your outfit will work.

I am sure that others who have used the vehicels you mention will offer their Points of view, but ultimately the choice is yours based on what priorities you set.

 

[Philspadders]

i tow a swift charisma 565 with 1490mtpl and with 2 kids and all the paraphenalia they require, along with a full size awing my 2007 ( from new) kia sportage xs Crdi pulls it with ease.

Its a very stable tow , quiet on the road, ( very little road , wind or engine noise) and the 4wd capability has come in very handy on some very wet , steep sites.

Its handy around town, not too big to make parking a pain but big enough to pack all the shopping in it.

Tyres are reasonable price as well, VED is not too horrendous and fully comp ins is only £210 per year.

I used it for work, shopping, and all family use and found it very versatile.My wife now drives it most of the time as i am lumbered with a bmw320d for work.

I find the kia a lot more comfortable to drive than the Beemer, and a lot quieter.

 

[littlebasher]

My 2009 Sportage CRDI doesn't struggle at all with my Bailey 620/6, and that's around 1500kgs loaded (plus all the other stuff in the car), plus It's also stable and composed.

They're also 225 lb-ft, rather than the 136 quoted above

 

[forestgump]

i have o7 plate tucson ltd edition pulls our adria 1500kgs no probs you need to get the o6 plate to get the better engine.The best way to tell is if it has 6 speed gear box older than 06 had the lesser bhp and not as refined as later modles,auto i dont know .

 

[Mikey_74]

I have an 05 Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel which has the 2.0, 111Bhp 192Ib torque engine and I use it to tow our twin axle 1600kg van, on the whole it wasn't to bad, it would hold 60mph all day, but if you tried to overtake anything then it was if you hit a wall at just over 3000rpm, quite frustrating at times, however I have ftted a Diesel tuning module to mine, I wasn't convinced it was doing much, yes the car was slightly better on fuel, (I get around 40mpg solo for work mix motorway/dual carriageway) but didn't feel that the box gave me much more power, but then I hitched the van on, oh my god, what a difference!!!! The car now pulls like a steam train and is much more eager when I need extra power, on the whole I'm more than happy now with everything about our outfit match, and not once has the Hyundai ever made me worry about stability. I have to admit I'm looking forward to the time I can change my car to the later type Santa fe with the 2.2 diesel in, but until then I would recommend the Fe I have, but, I will say budget for a tuning module, it gives the car what it needs.

 

[forestgump]

what box did you use mikey and whats the£... did you fit it yourself dose it void any warenty cheers,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Mids Mikey, has raised the spectre of tuning modules again,
You can’t get something for nothing, in other words for every so called benefit a tuning module provides there is usually some down side. More power can only be achieved by using more fuel.

More power may over stress some components in your vehicle. Better fuel consumption is often produces by lean burning which can raise piston and valve temperatures leading to earlier failure of components. Some modules affect the exhaust emissions and have been known to cause catalyst and MOT failures.

Be warned, some adversely affect the engine and can cause premature failures, which are not usually covered by warranty or guaranties.

Modules are a modification and must be reported to your insurers.

 

[TopCat1]

Thanks to you all for your replies, most helpful. As I thought the Sant Fe is underpowered. I dont like the idea of tuning kits as it seems to me that manufacturers produce an engine tuned as much to engine life as to power. Increase the performance at what cost to longevity?
The Sportage looks to be the best bet for me.

 

[JonnyG]

Mids Mikey, has raised the spectre of tuning modules again,
You can’t get something for nothing, in other words for every so called benefit a tuning module provides there is usually some down side. More power can only be achieved by using more fuel.

More power may over stress some components in your vehicle. Better fuel consumption is often produces by lean burning which can raise piston and valve temperatures leading to earlier failure of components. Some modules affect the exhaust emissions and have been known to cause catalyst and MOT failures.

Be warned, some adversely affect the engine and can cause premature failures, which are not usually covered by warranty or guaranties.

Modules are a modification and must be reported to your insurers.

Prof, it seems you are "old school" in the nicest way , but you are indeed a little out of touch, that was apparent by your earlier response quoting "bhp" when you should have been talking "torque" and pulling power which modern diesel have in abundance, and makes bhp /tonne , absolutely irrelevant in you discussion concerning HGVs or any vehicles towing power.

The same can also be said of the post i am responding too, as you are again out of touch, again not trying to be rude. and again your examples are "petrol engined based" ie lean burning, diesel run very very lean these days with plenty of excess Air something a petrol engine cannot do, for fear of damaging valve extra, this is not so of a diesel, and tuning boxes remaps merely take advantage of this excess air, so you do get something for nothing. nor will a properly set up "remap tuning box hamper you MOT emissions! as the vehicle has sensors these days that keep that under control, but also a diesel does not actually need a catalyst to pass in MOT, and again you have fallen over the fence and brought in Petrol engine problems, ie catalyst failure.
remaps and tuning boxes do not just chuck in more fuel everywhere, regardless they are far more sophisticated than that! Mpg can indeed improve too, as you can and have re-adapted the Ecu [computer]
So under touring lighter throttle improvements can be had, and it no myth.
You talk about premature failures?What would they be? it is possible to get remaps that are actually covered by the car manufactures, and indeed some even offer this service [remap]

I don't want to sound rude, but you are out of touch with the modern diesel engine and tuning.........

 

[seth1]

Regarding tuning box,s and remaps everyone is entitled to their own opinion.My opinion is they are both destructive for engines in the long run.The average tuning box as found on ebay and say "What Diesel car" is extremly crude,as many people will understand, common rail fuel systems work by largely keeping the fuel quantity around the same measure but increase and decrease fuel pressure to suit conditions and thus ramp and deramp the power to suit.The fuel pressures work within set parametres programmed in the control unit,not by a resister in the shape of a box with some writing on it fooling the control unit and ultimetly the high pressure fuel pump into producing higher pressure.As for remaps,who actually writes the new calibrations?Very poor.

 

[JonnyG]

Even you seth! you mention "what diesel" mag, which used to be called"dieselcar" before and they have actually tested remaps and tuning boxes many times over the years and at no time have they said anything detrimental towards them. but then you use for an example "ebay" trash, cheap resistors! as your example! Why not mention digital resistors?that actually don't just "fool the injector system, but use the MAF and can even use the turbo as well.but always within the ECUs set parameters!

then you ask who "writes these remaps! well companies like superchip do of Buckingham! who actually at times have worked with manufacturers, and supply them to car manufacturers as well,you will find the same sort of collaboration happens in Europe too.
If you buy cheap rubbish you get cheap rubbish, but dont be foolish enough to use cheap rubbish as an example of the general quality available!

 

[xtrailman]

What's a digital resistor?

 

[OmOnWeelz]

What's a digital resistor?

'potentiometer' ? I believe the simple answer is digital potentiometers are used when you need to vary the resistance in a circuit electronically.

 

[xtrailman]

As an electrician, i understand what a pot is, or variable resistor.
But have never heard of a digital resistor?

 

[JonnyG]

http://tuning-diesels.com/
When people use the words "cheap resistor",to describe a tuning box, I see no need to be any more accurate in my description of a "plug in digital tuning module" [tuning box] than to call it a digital resistor......

 

[seth1]

To respond to JonnyG's post,just because i make a reference to What Diesel magazine does not mean i see it as being correct,and infact alot of the items i have read have been gutterpress in my opinion.Im not a big poster on here but what i generally post is correct.My reference to the destructive qualititys of either of the talked about is not fiction but actual experiences due to the nature of my business,these range from split crankcases,damaged injector bodies,damaged "common rails",damaged high pressure fuel pumps,damaged turbochargers,not to mention drive train damage.
Whether you refer to a digital resister or an anologue resister,its still a resister,and not to be confused a digital resister is not a potentiometer.This is in fact a varible resister,as found in most if not all throttle pedals along with an idle validation switch.
You refer to Superchips,and?No matter what option is taken the engine will still be working outside the original factory parametres.The co and nox dont stay as they were previously before the adjustment,thats why the tuning firms are now offering the service of flashing the DPF function of the control unit(delete) because it blocks up.
All i would say is be carefull and each to their own.

 

[JonnyG]

To respond to JonnyG's post,just because i make a reference to What Diesel magazine does not mean i see it as being correct,and infact alot of the items i have read have been gutterpress in my opinion.Im not a big poster on here but what i generally post is correct.My reference to the destructive qualititys of either of the talked about is not fiction but actual experiences due to the nature of my business,these range from split crankcases,damaged injector bodies,damaged "common rails",damaged high pressure fuel pumps,damaged turbochargers,not to mention drive train damage.
Whether you refer to a digital resister or an anologue resister,its still a resister,and not to be confused a digital resister is not a potentiometer.This is in fact a varible resister,as found in most if not all throttle pedals along with an idle validation switch.
You refer to Superchips,and?No matter what option is taken the engine will still be working outside the original factory parametres.The co and nox dont stay as they were previously before the adjustment,thats why the tuning firms are now offering the service of flashing the DPF function of the control unit(delete) because it blocks up.
All i would say is be carefull and each to their own.

The word I am looking for is.....Wrong. You used the diesel mag is a reference of proof! and now change your opinion, as for your reference of co and nox as some sort of proof of wrong doing!The diesel MOT smoke test is still run on measurements from 1986! modern diesel cars really should not struggle with co reading! and plus NOX is not measured, DPFs have been having issues since there introduction if not heated up properly regardless of car being standard or tuned , and you are going off subject frankly because you have very little knowledge of today's diesels tuning that is apparent, and please put down the commercial vehicle magazine or is it the professional mechanic one! If you are that competent why not just plug in a diesel car and do a before and after diagnostic run and see for yourself if indeed the injectors turbo or whatever work outside the set Ecu parameters?because firstly if they did then the engine light would come on and limp mode would set in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! secondly being as bona fide companies claim to stay inside the Ecu's set parameters then by now there would have been court cases!frankly by claiming such a thing it is clear to me you have no first-hand knowledge on said subject regardless of your earlier reply.and had you actually spent five minutes using diagnotics equipement, to see if indeed the tunning item was working outside the set max perameters, you would not be making said claims!
But then as an after thought imagine that you are right, you could sue the major tuning companies for millions, afterall you have the info right at your finger tips!!

PS to stop any confusion , factory parameters means the max safety values and not how it runs day to day, because there is no such thing as day to day values, as many ECU's are reflashed by the manufacturers when updates are needed, good example is the earlier 2002/3 mondeos some smoked badly they were reflashed but only if owners complained, so there you have a car running different Ecu Perameters....A remap!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and ford are not the only one to have done so......
this is not the 80s! and I repeat this is not about petrol engined cars You are quoting old adjectives based on Petrol cars!And of that long list of faults you kindly wrote up, I would say that Only a badly worn Turbo, which sooner or later would go, and the drive train in this case i would take it to mainly mean the DMF,and again if already badly worn would be of a worry. But again both are wear items anyway, and a remap could/would show up the weakness.

I have not advocated that tuning a standard car is a good idea for all, and I have also pointed out rubbish resistor type tuning boxes do exist. i am not even giving my opinion on what I think about remaps ect,ect I am only pointing out Information that is being posted here on this thread that is incorrect, and readers are free to do google searches to see for themselves, what i already know about the remapping industry,pros and cons.

 

[seth1]

O dear me JonnyG,you seem to have your knickers in a twist my friend.I dont care in the slightest what people choose to do with their cars,quite frankly its non of my business.As already said my ref to What Diesel magazine was not to back myself up,ive no need to.But according to you im well out of date,infact that out of date i actually own my company,which happens to be an industrial diesel engineering business,which has customers over seas,which is an agent for two different engine makers,which supplys us with factory training,and factory diagnostic equipment,not forgetting thousands of pounds worth of non maker equipment.As for using diagnostic equipment,i'll go one better than that,we have full programming facilitys using factory developed calibration files which we upload daily on to customers ECM,s.A bit like the"remaps" in question but with serious R+D,not made up on the day and without the added black smoke so often seen after a remap.
Parametres are not changed, engines do not operate out side of the original programmed features?Is that correct?Bullshit,i had the pleasure in looking at a boost pressure parametre after the ECM had been mapped.0.5 bar,(7psi) extra boost over standard from 1500rpm to 2500rpm(very big engine admmitted).Is that not an adjustment of a parametre?
You can now explain to me how most tuning boxs,which is what originally was talked about,that plug on to the commonrail fuel pressure sensor operate.Because according to you,a good devise does alot more than alter fuel pressure.It is quite obviouse a boost pressure increase comes from a larger charge,the charge being fuel,this being the basics of thought.But the devises are only acting on the fuel pressure parametre,were does the other adjustments come from?

 

[seth1]

JonnyG just read your post again regarding EDC warning features and outside of spec of parametres,my 7 year old son has a better understanding than you.When a control unit is flashed it means JUST THAT,not a sensor or actuator,or anything else but the control unit,you are adjusting the operating conditions in which the control unit can function at correctly.No fault will be active.IT HAS BEEN ADJUSTED TO SUIT.
Come on enlighten us all,as were still in the sixtys, what injection pressures,service centre pressure,inlet restriction,boost pressures,boost temperature,torque on demand output,injection advance and ******,cylinder temps and pressures, should we be seeing in your experiance of operating brake dynomometers as by your own words i show my very little understanding of the subject and have to refer to free monthly publications.

 

[xtrailman]

http://tuning-diesels.com/

When people use the words "cheap resistor",to describe a tuning box, I see no need to be any more accurate in my description of a "plug in digital tuning module" [tuning box] than to call it a digital resistor......

Both terms are then incorrect and misleading.
There is little point in critiquing other posts, only to then post inaccurate descriptions yourself?

 

[JonnyG]

JonnyG just read your post again regarding EDC warning features and outside of spec of parametres,my 7 year old son has a better understanding than you.When a control unit is flashed it means JUST THAT,not a sensor or actuator,or anything else but the control unit,you are adjusting the operating conditions in which the control unit can function at correctly.No fault will be active.IT HAS BEEN ADJUSTED TO SUIT.
Come on enlighten us all,as were still in the sixtys, what injection pressures,service centre pressure,inlet restriction,boost pressures,boost temperature,torque on demand output,injection advance and ******,cylinder temps and pressures, should we be seeing in your experiance of operating brake dynomometers as by your own words i show my very little understanding of the subject and have to refer to free monthly publications.

actually seth as you are the one who claims these parameters are altered and moved to outside of the ECU's perimeters, and as I have already asked you to use your own diagnostics systems to test and see for yourself, and maybe paste them here for all to see, [a before and after] why are you asking me to do something to disprove what you say? surely you should have done this to disprove me or the claims made by the remap industry after all you are contradicting them??cannot see how I posting me own stuff would convince you otherwise.besides which i or anyone else could cut corners and just copy and paste other data from the vast aray of websites that has this data! so as you have stated you have come across a vast of remaps blowing up engines ect ect surely you could back that up with some proper info rather than just quoting eighties [not sixties] data? or trying to blind people with technical terms?afterall you do this stuff everyday you have the data at your finger tips, in fact i will temp fate, being as you only reply late in the day, how about giving the standard psi rates for a turbo fitted to a 130bhp VW or a 2.2 mondeo say at 250 rpm increments from 1250 to 3750rpm, tonight? and as you are trying to get techy, why not post the max running psi that the two above cars turbo's could run,[safely if there is every such a system] then add to that the max their injectors could flow per minute and check in the inter cooler abilities too and max volume of air it too can supply say at no more than 35 degrees temp . once you have done this, you could actually tell me what would be there reliable max BHP plus or minus 5% and these i can check immediately, and I would be impressed too who knows actually believe in your abilities when it comes to understanding remapping. please note this info is readily avaiable on certain websites so be carefull what you post.! Remember you are calling the entire remap industry liars, by rejecting their claims that "they do not adjust the settings outside of set MAX perimeters" Oh and as we have to be word perfect, let me add they do not adjust outside of Ecu perimeters on the normal remaps that you and I can easily acquire, knowing my luck you would go and find a tuner that did very specialist tuning and use them to back up your claim! .

 

[Philspadders]

now now boys.

a couple of points

The op was talking about a tuning box and not a remap.

A remap is e a re programming of the ECU, a tuning box does not do this.

A proper remap , that may include a new processor is very expensive.

A tuning box is not.

A remap changes the nominal operating parameters of the engine, changing not only fuel pressures, lean mixes, air flow but crucially the engine timing.

A tuning box does not affect your timing, its primary function is to alter fuel flow, thats all it can do because thats all it has access to.If you increase fuel flow the engine starts to run rich, and as most tuning boxes do not the ability to alter air mix this will have very detrimental effects on the engine. As the engine RPM;s increase the fuel air mix changes , and crucially the fuel injection timing needs to change. Tuning boxes do not do this.

In the long term i would avoid a plug in unit. If you do want to change your engines performance have it professionally remapped - re programmed and re chipped.

Ps, most manufacturers will void any warranty if your ECU is remapped by anyone other than their own dealer network and then only with authorised upgrades.

Thats why many remapping services quite clearly state that their remap is not visible from a diagnostic check at service and so your warranty will not be voided.

I dont want to be rude JohnnyG but .....

As for tuning boxes ask the supplier to guaruntee that there will be no adverse damage to the engine and if there is will they replace the engine.... blink and he will disappear into the distance.

 

[xtrailman]

now now boys. a couple of points The op was talking about a tuning box and not a remap. A remap is e a re programming of the ECU, a tuning box does not do this. A proper remap , that may include a new processor is very expensive. A tuning box is not. A remap changes the nominal operating parameters of the engine, changing not only fuel pressures, lean mixes, air flow but crucially the engine timing. A tuning box does not affect your timing, its primary function is to alter fuel flow, thats all it can do because thats all it has access to.If you increase fuel flow the engine starts to run rich, and as most tuning boxes do not the ability to alter air mix this will have very detrimental effects on the engine. As the engine RPM;s increase the fuel air mix changes , and crucially the fuel injection timing needs to change. Tuning boxes do not do this. In the long term i would avoid a plug in unit. If you do want to change your engines performance have it professionally remapped - re programmed and re chipped. Ps, most manufacturers will void any warranty if your ECU is remapped by anyone other than their own dealer network and then only with authorised upgrades. Thats why many remapping services quite clearly state that their remap is not visible from a diagnostic check at service and so your warranty will not be voided. I dont want to be rude JohnnyG but ..... As for tuning boxes ask the supplier to guaruntee that there will be no adverse damage to the engine and if there is will they replace the engine.... blink and he will disappear into the distance.

I agree.
A remap carried out by a company with recommendations.
But what ever you decide, it is ABSOLUTELY essential that the car is fully tested to ensure ALL sensors are fully functional, and working WITHIN parameters.
And also to put the car on a rolling road, test for torque and BHP, then print out the results.
After the remap, which is the only option i would use, again onto the rolling road, check the results and print off.
Then you can see what if any gains you have made.
Or simply do what i did, and buy a car with sufficient power and torque to start with, knowing that ALL your drive gear, and brakes can deal with the power.

 

[seth1]

What has the time of the day got to do with anything?
You've asked for "screen shots" of tuned engines,by the sound of my post i would think it would be obviouse i wouldnt have these.As stated i clearly dont believe in this game,and would have no part in it,and clearly would not waste money buying the kit.But i can provide you with two answers to two of your questions.One being i can show proper factory calibrations for all of our "american engine range" if you wish.The other being the standard figures that you asked for,for a pd130,as follows-boost pressure 2.1 bar to 2.4 bar up to 3090rpm.All out of a book-autodata.Now stop diverting,changing the subject,dressing it how you want and answer my questions instead of letting other people who dont profess to be diesel engineers do it for you (me)As RAY says get the right tool for the right job.Ive also met more bad so called "engine enhancement" firms than enough,and i can give names if required,please dont be scared to ask,but thats another story.END