Tow cars: the hybrid questions

[LizziePope]

More and more, we're receiving letters and questions about towing with hybrids. So we put Practical Caravan's expert David Motton on the case. Please click here to read his latest blog.

 

[otherclive]

A timely and useful article by DM. If your towing mileage isn't large compared to solo mileage a petrol hybrid is a consideration. But unlike the big Volvo many hybrids don't have turbos so the owner would have to get used to driving with higher revs especially on hills and a more leisurely acceleration. But this isn't insurmountable as we all probably drove normally aspirated petrol cars at one time and still enjoyed our hobby.

 

[Raywood]

I think hybrids will become more numerous as people realise the tax advantages and the towing market should be big enough for a decent number of models to be made that work for us. The electric power is not going to be used to any extent for towing in any model currently available though it is there for short journeys where it does have serious advantages over the internal combustion engine, Towing will normally be over far greater distances though so you will have to live with the limitations of the conventional engine though but chose carefully as these are not always strong enough for towing. The additional batteries though do give you more weight which helps with stability,
Possibly a full review of the current models and their suitability might be helpful.

 

[ProfJohnL]

but chose carefully as these are not always strong enough for towing.

Hello Ray,

I'm not sure how to take your comment. Even before electrics and hybrids, it has always been the case that you need to check the manufacturers specifications for the maximum towed load capability of the vehicle, and the same is equally true for electrics and hybrids.

Or are you saying that you cant trust the manufacturers towing capability figures?

 

[SamandRose]

I read Ray's post as referring to the engine performance, which may not be well-suited to towing long distances - certainly not as well as a modern diesel - manufacturer's figures notwithstanding.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I read Ray's post as referring to the engine performance, which may not be well-suited to towing long distances - certainly not as well as a modern diesel - manufacturer's figures notwithstanding.

Short or long distances shouldn't make a difference. If a vehicle is rated to tow a particular weight, then distance shouldn't be a criteria.

The point Motty makes about hybrids, being the battery only having a limited capacity which may be exhausted more quickly when the vehicle is towing, should have already been accommodated in the manufacturers towing specification. This is evident in some of the models where there are direct comparisons, for example the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has a lower towing capacity, than the diesel model, The VW Passat GTE (PHEV) has a towed weight limit of 1600 compared to the 2.0l diesel of 1800kg.

Prospective purchasers as always should be checking the capabilities of cars before they purchase.

 

[Woodentop]

I read Ray's post as referring to the engine performance, which may not be well-suited to towing long distances - certainly not as well as a modern diesel - manufacturer's figures notwithstanding.

Short or long distances shouldn't make a difference. If a vehicle is rated to tow a particular weight, then distance shouldn't be a criteria.

The point Motty makes about hybrids, being the battery only having a limited capacity which may be exhausted more quickly when the vehicle is towing, should have already been accommodated in the manufacturers towing specification. This is evident in some of the models where there are direct comparisons, for example the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has a lower towing capacity, than the diesel model, The VW Passat GTE (PHEV) has a towed weight limit of 1600 compared to the 2.0l diesel of 1800kg.

Prospective purchasers as always should be checking the capabilities of cars before they purchase.

Always remember that the battery only lasts typically five years before replacement. If the control system still feels happy to use battery at any time when towing I would suggest the battery life will be less than five years - much less.

I saw a charge post at a P&R site recently - rated 7KW!! Where will you get that sort of power on a caravan site to charge the vehicle overnight?

 

[Craigyoung]

[ Prof qouote ] Where will you get that sort of power on a caravan site to charge the vehicle overnight?[/quote]

Can you imagine the price of a pitch on a site if and when they start installing electric points for cars ?!

 

[otherclive]

I guess that they will probably have points away from the pitches where you pay separately for the recharge. But just look on the positive side at the savings on diesel or petrol. (in our dreams)!

 

[Craigyoung]

Well I've got 30 years plus to enjoy myself and getting about so I will deal with that problem when it arises later on in the future ! fingers crossed the diesel we have just bought will run for many years to come or better !!
Craig

 

[Dustydog]

The Volvo XC90 T8 hybrid as tested by the gurus at this year's tow car of the year award only managed 16.1mpg whilst towing hmy:
If that's progress we're doomed :woohoo: :woohoo:

 

[Craigyoung]

That shocking that you might as well throw your money away !! I'm getting more than twice than that so I think I will stick to diesel for as long as I can !!

 

[Martin24]

good grief, 35mpg solo and 29 towing from my current 2.5 twin turbo. Volvo can take a run and jump with those sort of figures.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I read Ray's post as referring to the engine performance, which may not be well-suited to towing long distances - certainly not as well as a modern diesel - manufacturer's figures notwithstanding.

Short or long distances shouldn't make a difference. If a vehicle is rated to tow a particular weight, then distance shouldn't be a criteria.

The point Motty makes about hybrids, being the battery only having a limited capacity which may be exhausted more quickly when the vehicle is towing, should have already been accommodated in the manufacturers towing specification. This is evident in some of the models where there are direct comparisons, for example the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has a lower towing capacity, than the diesel model, The VW Passat GTE (PHEV) has a towed weight limit of 1600 compared to the 2.0l diesel of 1800kg.

Prospective purchasers as always should be checking the capabilities of cars before they purchase.

Always remember that the battery only lasts typically five years before replacement. If the control system still feels happy to use battery at any time when towing I would suggest the battery life will be less than five years - much less.

I saw a charge post at a P&R site recently - rated 7KW!! Where will you get that sort of power on a caravan site to charge the vehicle overnight?

Where on earth did you get this scaremongering incorrect information?

I suggest you read this:-
https://insideevs.com/tesla-leaf-ev-battery-degradation/

There overall results show that battery degradation in cars is far better than was anticipated by the ner-do- well's. Yes there is some degradation but the figure are more liken 85 to 90% of original performance. And some batteries are looking to outlast the expected life of the car!.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sorry Craig!

[ Prof qouote ] Where will you get that sort of power on a caravan site to charge the vehicle overnight?

Can you imagine the price of a pitch on a site if and when they start installing electric points for cars ?! [/quote]

Not my words!

 

[ProfJohnL]

The Volvo XC90 T8 hybrid as tested by the gurus at this year's tow car of the year award only managed 16.1mpg whilst towing hmy:
If that's progress we're doomed :woohoo: :woohoo:

Why doomed?

Granted that figure looks dismal, but in the context how many towing miles you do compared to solo driving, the it may still make economic sense.

 

[Dustydog]

The Volvo XC90 T8 hybrid as tested by the gurus at this year's tow car of the year award only managed 16.1mpg whilst towing hmy:
If that's progress we're doomed :woohoo: :woohoo:

Why doomed?

Granted that figure looks dismal, but in the context how many towing miles you do compared to solo driving, the it may still make economic sense.

My point Prof is if that's progress at 16.1mpg caravanning may become a thing of the past. However I am sure the Treasury are happy

 

[Craigyoung]

Sorry Craig!

[ Prof qouote ] Where will you get that sort of power on a caravan site to charge the vehicle overnight?

Can you imagine the price of a pitch on a site if and when they start installing electric points for cars ?!

Not my words![/quote]

No they were my words regarding the prices of the site if electric points were installed it just didn't separate from your quoted bit !! sorry

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,

Rather than create a long document I suggest you read this

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/caravans/articles/general/your-tow-car-and-its-future-with-electricity

 

[Dustydog]

Hello Dusty,

Rather than create a long document I suggest you read this

]https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/caravans/articles/general/your-tow-car-and-its-future-with-electricity

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/c...ow-car-and-its-future-with-electricity[/quote
Thanks Prof.
A very interesting article even though it is at variance with David Motton's script.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm not sure what happened there! I thought I had pointed to an article that explored the different costs of running an IC engine vs Hybrid. I cannot find it now, so I'll try to be brief.

The first thing to point out is that the Volvo Dusty referred to is not really a mainstream vehicle, so it's not really fair to hold it up as a 'typical vehicle' but it does demonstrate one of the likely characteristics of hybrids used for towing, and that will be poorer mpg than for equivalent diesel or even turbo petrols, but most will be better than the Volvo.

Having pushed the Volvo to the side, metaphorically speaking, the issue of poorer towing mpg can't be ignored, but it should be viewed in the context of whole mileage costs. On the basis average caravanners will be only be towing for about 10% of their annual mileage, the poorer towing mpg will be offset by the greater savings the technology offers when solo.

Of course there will be some who may do more than 10% towing miles, and consequently the coatings would be different but these people will be minority, and that may affect their vehicle purchasing strategies.

Other factors that will affect the costings would be changes to electricity tariffs, if for example the economy seven (or off peak rates) were changed, but then so will changes to the cost of diesel or petrol, so cost differentials cannot be guaranteed. However looking at it from an energy efficiency perspective the greatest probability is that for the average caravanner hybrid power will be overall more efficient.

With regards battery degradation, despite dire warnings of piles (no pun intended) of discarded batteries, the evidence is they are lasting far better than anticipated. It's also the case that batteries are highly recyclable, far more easily than ic engines and ancillaries.

 

[JonnyG]

I.m actually very skeptical about the battery longevity regardless of how they seem to be holding up as they are not mainstream vehicles as yet and in the main toddle to work and back with very little asked of them, unlike main stream petrol and diesel cars that do huge mileage 10 hours a day 3 to 4 years before being discarded onto the secondhand market.. most things are rated in hours so to say a battery will last 5 or 6 years is ridiculous unless you state how many hours usage you are looking at per year so a car using merely 10 hours of battery a week may well last 10 years but what of the car using 30 or 40 hours a week?? . then theres the quality control issue, with regards these batteries, history dictates when millions of these vehicles have to be produced to tight deadlines quality control does suffer and no doubt will ,which has always been the case once you move up to high volume production figures.. just wondering if this will be a worse case scenario than that of dual mass flywheels and DPF's which in the early days suffered huge early failures which weren't foresaw but once mass production became the main stream quality no doubt suffered as did motorists

 

[Dustydog]

I'm not sure what happened there! I thought I had pointed to an article that explored the different costs of running an IC engine vs Hybrid. I cannot find it now, so I'll try to be brief.

The first thing to point out is that the Volvo Dusty referred to is not really a mainstream vehicle, so it's not really fair to hold it up as a 'typical vehicle' but it does demonstrate one of the likely characteristics of hybrids used for towing, and that will be poorer mpg than for equivalent diesel or even turbo petrols, but most will be better than the Volvo.

Having pushed the Volvo to the side, metaphorically speaking, the issue of poorer towing mpg can't be ignored, but it should be viewed in the context of whole mileage costs. On the basis average caravanners will be only be towing for about 10% of their annual mileage, the poorer towing mpg will be offset by the greater savings the technology offers when solo.

Of course there will be some who may do more than 10% towing miles, and consequently the coatings would be different but these people will be minority, and that may affect their vehicle purchasing strategies.

Other factors that will affect the costings would be changes to electricity tariffs, if for example the economy seven (or off peak rates) were changed, but then so will changes to the cost of diesel or petrol, so cost differentials cannot be guaranteed. However looking at it from an energy efficiency perspective the greatest probability is that for the average caravanner hybrid power will be overall more efficient.

With regards battery degradation, despite dire warnings of piles (no pun intended) of discarded batteries, the evidence is they are lasting far better than anticipated. It's also the case that batteries are highly recyclable, far more easily than ic engines and ancillaries.

Prof,
Why decry and dismiss the Volvo?
For a caravanner it's a mainstream vehicle. It's Volvo's state of the art concept moving forwards to new technology and power sources. But they may have got it wrong .
I've said before a large number of caravanners have two cars in the family. One a fuel guzzler but excellent tugger. The other a real lean burn super frugal vehicle. So number of miles travelled isn' t really relevant as you say for a caravanner.
However it wouldn't surprise me if a high tech steam driven vehicle came about using a turbine with power generation and electric motors. Gas being the fuel.

 

[Hutch]

Here is another interesting artical
https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/caravans/articles/general/your-tow-car-and-its-future-with-electricity

 

[Dustydog]

Hutch.
I'm laughing Our very own David Motton quoted the towing mpg of the Volvo XC90 at 16.1 towing hmy:
Is that progress :blink:
As for no gearboxes on electric do you know if they will be able to pull a heavy TA from a standing start off a 1 in 6 hill?
SW not going well this week. Will tell you more on email.