Towcar Suggestion

[Stephen_5077753]

Can someone please suggest a towcar to pull a 1230kg caravan. Its max fully laden can be 1430 (ish) so if Im looking to keep to the 85% recomendation I would be looking for a car weighing in at around 1600Kg.

Must be good on fuel, 35+ solo/40mpg if driven sensibly, have good space for 5 and a decent boot.

Im looking for a normal saloon, hatch or estate rather than a SUV (i can explain later why no SUV)

Thanks

Steve

 

[JohnI.Stephen]

I recently towed my 1440 kg (fully laden) caravan with a Renault Espace 1.9 CDi; it was superb; easily getting 35-40 mpg in normal driving and 30 mpg when towing at, or just below, the legal limit of 60mph. Room for 5 easily and an all round great family car.

John

 

[TheOracle_5076115]

passat estate with the 130bhp diesel is a good towcar and load lugger + it is heavy so will pull most vans with ease. works for me!

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

With the Passat get the Automatic if you can, you won't go back to manual after though because it spoils you. We have a full dog cage in the back and load Aqua Roll/Wastemaster etc on the rear seats and it tows like a dream.

 

[AdifferentJim]

Volvo V70 D5 or Passat 130tdi Estate. Both excellent towing and solo. My van has an mtplm of 1472 both tow with ease and very steady.

 

[Stephen_5077753]

Thanks for your suggestions. Sorry to mislead you I was just trying to prove a point:

The Renault L=4661,w=1860,urban mpg=31.7,co2=187,KW=1695

VW Passat L=4682, w=1746,urban mpg=36.2,co2=159,KW=1425

Volvo V70 L=4710, w=1804,urban mpg=31.4,co2=179,KW=1561

X-trail L=4455, w=1765,urban mpg=31.4,co2=190,KW=1541

How can someone normal (as some do in this forum) that we should all buy normal cars and not 4x4's. Looking at Whattowcar.com all the cars that will tow my caravan are way too expensive for me (as new or nearly new). The X-trail is shorter than all 3 cars suggested, narrower than 2 of them, just about the same with fuel and has the same NCAP pedestrian rating as them (cant find the stats for the espace). So can someone please explain why are "all 4x4's bad for you" to me please?

Steve

 

[Guest]

I would like to suggest that it is not the 4x4's that are bad for everyone, it is the inconsiderate drivers who have made them a target for a lot of wrath. The phrases 'Chelsea tractors' etc were only connotated after a lot of publicity regarding urban dwellers, who have no real need for a 4x4, using them to drop their little darlings at school and picking same said offspring after school has finished. Blocking roads, parking on pavements etc is bound to get you noticed sooner or later. I don't recall too many reports of concerns in the countryside, where 4x4's really belong. The controversy over fuel consumption and pollution is a red herring for the same aggro as mentioned above. I live in an area which has the 2nd highest percentage of 4x4's outside districts of London. So yes, I do see the chaos that they do cause in narrow urban streets. Does anyone really need a Porsche Cayenne to go from his/her house to the office/school?? The defence is that they are the same footprint as other cars and that is probably true. But they are a damm sight taller and usually have much larger wheels. Also if they hit you, there is a greater chance of you as a pedestrian suffering greater damage than bouncing off a normal height bonnet.

Once common sense prevails and the manufacturers stop pushing the 'macho' crap then 4x4's will take their rightful place as useful vehicles, to those that really need them.

Regards

 

[Gary_5039903]

Why not look at a Mondeo TDCi estate? Kerbweights are high 1500, low 1600kgs and a max. tow of 1800kgs. Prices for 12 to 18 month old models are between

 

[CliveV]

David - you make your point well re the suitability of 4x4's in towns but you rather contradict yourself re the "footprint" data resorting to the fact that they "have bigger wheels". So what? Buses have bigger wheels and round here run around with about 5 passengers!

The NCAP data does not indicate that modern 4x4's are worse for pedestrians scoring many 4x4's as well as other cars.

Also why the need to resort to even mild rude words such as cr*p?

Finally - Stephens points succinctly and accurately outline precisely why a 4x4 is in many many ways better suited for towing. So what if all those Mums and Dads in towns that you berate also use their 4x4 to tow the caravan at weekends?

Finally considering that a whole thread exists adjacent to this one outlining the problems that can occur with just 2 wheel drive I am surprised that you feel that caravanners do not qualify as "those that really need them"?

Unless of course you are someone with a diferent agenda to the rest of us caravanners who as a group would, I am sure, just like to pick a towcar that suits us and let everybody else enjoy the freedom to do the same.

 

[Lutz]

Build quality nowadays has little to do with where the cars are actually built. Mondeos are built in Genk, Belgium, for example and no car of the Ford marque is built in the UK any more. Apart from the 5 door Astra the same applies to Vauxhalls. If I'm not mistaken many right hand drive Mercs are built in South Africa. One could go on.

 

[rob_jax]

Build quality nowadays has little to do with where the cars are actually built. Mondeos are built in Genk, Belgium, for example and no car of the Ford marque is built in the UK any more. Apart from the 5 door Astra the same applies to Vauxhalls. If I'm not mistaken many right hand drive Mercs are built in South Africa. One could go on.

Lutz,

You are right, my RHD C-Class came from South Africa and I believe that many LHD C-Class are sourced from there too.

My C270 CDI is now nearly 3 years old, 55k miles, no defects and the dealerships are truly good.

Robert

 

[Gary_5039903]

Just to clarify, my comment about Mondeos being as good as anything German. What I meant was that the Mondeo is (IMO) just as a good as a Volkswagen which has always been regarded as sturdy and well built. As Lutz has rightly pointed out, cars are made in many different parts of the world so its impossible to say whats made where!!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Just to clarify, my comment about Mondeos being as good as anything German. What I meant was that the Mondeo is (IMO) just as a good as a Volkswagen which has always been regarded as sturdy and well built. As Lutz has rightly pointed out, cars are made in many different parts of the world so its impossible to say whats made where!!

in response to stephen.

a 4x4 will not get as many miles to the gallon as a saloon or

estate.

firstly its cda is so much worse and secondly needs 15% more

energy/fuel to drive the extra 2 wheels.

therefore it uses at least 20% more fuel, no matter what anybody

on here says about there large 4x4, its a mathamatical fact.

so therefore by using so much more fuel,even more so from cold.

it pollutes more.

you cannot ever justify the use of a large 4x4 on enviormental

grounds. but if thats what you like to drive, so be it.enjoy it.

 

[CliveV]

Just to clarify, my comment about Mondeos being as good as anything German. What I meant was that the Mondeo is (IMO) just as a good as a Volkswagen which has always been regarded as sturdy and well built. As Lutz has rightly pointed out, cars are made in many different parts of the world so its impossible to say whats made where!!

Hi Giovanni

But a 4x4 will

Suffer less drop in performance and mpg when towing

They do not drive all four wheels at once whilst on tarmac - to do so would cause transmission wind-up

The mathematical fact you state is not born out by the data on file - many 4x4's having comparable mpg or even better than large saloons

All vehicles are less efficient from cold - so why try to make out 4x4's are worse?

As I have gone to the expense of converting my 4x4 to run on LPG I CAN JUSTIFY running it on environmental grounds - it is cheaper to run and only produces a miniscule amount of pollution compares to a petrol or diesel engine.

Let me ask you the same question I have asked others who try to play the "holier than thou" environmental card - What do you drive and how can you justify driving a vehicle that I doubt is as environmentally friendly as mine?

They declined to answer - I would be happy to compare notes on our respective transport choice - No antagonism - just a genuine desire to portray myself and other 4x4 drivers as normal caring people and not the selfish individuals you try to portray us as.

 

[Guest]

Clive

Oops, my apologies for any offence I have caused you. However, I may have not clarified myself in what I was trying to get across.

I have no objections to anyone doing whatever they want, it is a free country, but I also feel that we all also have the duty to give consideration to others.

My comments regarding 4x4's in the country was to point out that many people who live outside urban areas suffer more from bad weather conditions and the resulting difficulties in driving mean a 4x4 will probably be of benefit to them all the time, not just when towing and they probably are doing plenty of that as well. In addition they may live away from main roads where again access is better using such a vehicle. These were the points I was trying to make with my 'those that really need them' comment. I don't feel that using a 4x4 is essential for these particular reasons in a city, and I have to claim that at least here in Edinburgh the majority of the 4x4's in the city do not have towbars. either fixed or detachable. The owners here don't necessarily view caravanning as their type of hobby, poor souls, their loss. Also again here in Edinburgh we have the highest bus useage anywhere in Britain with probably the most efficient city bus service in the country. It isn't perfect but it certainly works. Possibly the fact that the parking wardens are extremely aggressive may also be a pertinent factor. I think what makes it even more obvious is the difference in traffic chaos during, and outwith school terms., and of course there are many 'mums and dads' using normal cars as well as 4x4's for this purpose. Maybe it is just the 4x4' are more obvious. I made the point regarding height because the various tests carried out over the years indicated that if you are hit by a low bonnet you will tend to ride up on to the bonnet and 'supposedly' suffer less injury. With the higher bonnet you take a straight hit and get hurt really bad. I have not tested it myself, and do not wish to, so cannot confirm, or deny these claims. Again, in cities, accidents involving pedestrians are more likely with the resulting consequencies, and yes, do not get hit by a bus anywhere, it will always win, but note they can usually stop a lot quicker than any other vehicle on the road.

As for whether 4x4's make better towing vehicles is a point with no real answer. Yes, the bigger 4x4's can indeed pull bigger trailers due to their increased kerb weight, but it is curious that the majority of 4x4's have either designs to run in 2 wheel drive on tarmac roads, or are recommended not to engage 4 wheel drive except under severe conditions. So I question the necessity of the 4 wheel drive claim. In fact an increasing number of more 'normal' cars nowadays are offered with fixed 4 wheel drive (Volvo, Subaru, Jaguar) than the so called 4x4's. Even the X Trail desired by Stephen is running most of the time in 2 wheel drive, and I believe is more often described as a 'softroader' than a true 4x4. If he wishes to run one as a towcar then that is his choice, and all credit to him. I am however doubtful about the cost claims as I see from Autotrader that used X Trails are in the 12-18k bracket, particularly if you are looking at the 2.5 litre engine which will make towing much easier. The kerb weight is also listed as 1430-1550 kg so applying the 85% rule gives a caravan weight of 1216-1318 kgs. There are many cars out there that can just as easily handle those weights and are in the same price bracket. So if he likes the X Trail then good on him.

I apologise if I offended with my phraseology regarding the motoring press.The word I used is listed in the Oxford Dictionary and is is used to define 'nonsense' which was the attribute I was intending. So many of the articles in the 4x4 press seem to regard how much water the vehicle will swim in, or the steepness of the hill it can climb as the criteria for desirability. If I was paying upwards of 20K or even the mid 30K's for a Landrover Discovery the last place I would want to take it is through a river. The word 'nonsense' just didn't seem to summarise them as appropriately as the word used.

So please enjoy your 4x4 Clive. As mentioned before it is a free world.

Regards

David

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Hi Giovanni

But a 4x4 will

Suffer less drop in performance and mpg when towing

They do not drive all four wheels at once whilst on tarmac - to do so would cause transmission wind-up

The mathematical fact you state is not born out by the data on file - many 4x4's having comparable mpg or even better than large saloons

All vehicles are less efficient from cold - so why try to make out 4x4's are worse?

As I have gone to the expense of converting my 4x4 to run on LPG I CAN JUSTIFY running it on environmental grounds - it is cheaper to run and only produces a miniscule amount of pollution compares to a petrol or diesel engine.

Let me ask you the same question I have asked others who try to play the "holier than thou" environmental card - What do you drive and how can you justify driving a vehicle that I doubt is as environmentally friendly as mine?

They declined to answer - I would be happy to compare notes on our respective transport choice - No antagonism - just a genuine desire to portray myself and other 4x4 drivers as normal caring people and not the selfish individuals you try to portray us as.

clive you are correct, but the figures given were for urban i

didn't notice extra urban figures being used,why because the gap

then opens up.the urban figures are from cold start, the speed

they are driven at is so slow, this intern means any benefit

a normal car has over a large square shape n/a things such

as drag do not come into it.

show me the extra urban figures, and let me see how close they

are then.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

in response to clive and stephen.

firstly noticed that the urban cycle was used for the comparison,why not the extra urban cycle, do you not tow on all

roads. no the urban cycle is from cold and at slow speed, which

means the figures can be close.

so why not show me the extra urban cycle, so we can see the REAL difference.

clive read my post again, i said you cannot use a 4x4 and breach

envioromental grounds.

what do i drive, well firstly lets see what you drive a 4x4 with

lpg conversion, and you would now claim to be doing your bit

right? well firstly look at the extra industrial use which has

been used to produce your lpg kit, then if you did do it for

envioromental reasons, you would surely still know that a normal

car would still burn less lpg, than a 4x4.

what do i drive.. i use chip pan oil. your thoughts..

 

[CliveV]

I take it you have no problem spuing out unburnt hydrocarbon compounds then?

These are known to be carcinogenic! Proper diesel and bio diesel have additives to reduce this problem.

Chip oil does not.

These additives also protect your engine. It will wear out quicker and produce even more polutants in doing so.

And you have a go at me!!

AND - I havent even mentioned the Tax implications!!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

clive, maybe you would like to name these carcinogenic products.

and you assume wrongly that the chip pan oil is not treated.

but then you jumped the gun, [which i knew you would] by

believing me in the first place or for that matter thinking that

i wouldn't know about untreated chip pan oil will gump up the

works, ethanol springs to mind.

i use normal diesel,infact i don't even use bio diesel, but then

i don't go round trying to make out that whatever i do is for

the benefit of the envioroment, like others. and what does tax

benefits have to do with it... i see you drive a lpg because of

the tax benefits... and there was you making out that you were

thinking of the envioroment.

i'm not the one whos trying to make out am holyer than....

 

[Lol1]

Giovanni, why say your using cooking oil when you are not? If you deliberately lie, and then wait for an answer on what is a touchy subject for some, what are you expecting? Clive drives an LPG car, manly for the tax benefits, there is nothing wrong with that, if it happens to be a cleaner fuel, all the better. The tax that Clive mentions about your fuel (chip pan oil) (or not as the case may be) is in relation to you not paying tax on your fuel when you should. As it turns out, you don't use chip pan oil, so I guess you pay your normal taxes on diesel.

Your arguments are all over the place as per 4x4s and you contradict yourself often, once again your not doing the anti's any favours, so let me help you. Compared to a normal car, a 4x4 will use slightly more fuel. Stick to that bit and your on a winner, however don't bother using it here where the caravanning aspects of owning a 4x4 outweigh this small detail.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Gentlemen (my apologies if any of you are ladies)

The environmental issue I believe is being rather misused in this extended argument.

I hope we can all agree that the use of any vehicle even electric will have some environmental impact. It may be a primary impact, such as damage, wear & tear and erosion, it could be secondary impact such the emission of waste products, inc. noise and heat, or it could be consequential impact from the manufacturing processes and the production of fuels and other consumables, and of course the disposal at life end.

I do not believe there is a single vehicle that can genuinely claim it is "good for the environment" so such claims are misleading. It would be more appropriate to say that all vehicles have some impact but some have less than others.

Environmentally a large vehicle used for short distances could have less overall impact than a small vehicle used very extensively over long distances. so without all the data it is erroneous to claim that X is causing more damage than Y.

I hope it is accepted that the use of the smallest practical vehicle for any given journey would keep environmental damage to a minimum. But that statement also allows for the use of larger vehicles where a smaller one is impractical.

As the law in the UK stands, it is the individuals choice as to which type of vehicle to use and that will determined by the individuals circumstances and conscience.

The Government is trying to persuade users to choose more economical cars, but it is a rather half hearted affair with limited tax breaks in the road fund tax, and politically motivated duties on fuel.

So rather than trying disparage other forum users, lets get back to sensible informed debate with some humour.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

This input strikes me as once again as being anti 4x4. This topic was to be included in the towcar section of this forum as specified by the moderator. As far as I am concerned it is not the vehicle which should be considered but the driver - any vehicle in the wrong hands can be lethal. I have a 4x4 and to date have not been involved in any accident, use on average 35mpg deisel and enjoy the facilitiy on knowing that should I be stuck or if someone requires help I will be able to help. This is over and above the facilitiy of being able to tow a large caravan with ease when ever I should need to. My 4x4 I can ensure you is not a Chelsea tractor.

 

[CliveV]

Hi guys - thanks for stating what I would have done! - I am on holiday now so do not and WILL NOT have a screen in front of me all day!!

But what a surprise - The contentious post is now admitted to be a lie so that a bizarre "point" can be made. How odd is that?

If my LPG kit used energy in its production - think what a brand new car would cost in environmental terms? Especially if it has to be transported half way around the world to get to me. It is recognised that by keeping an older car on the road and running it on LPG you cost the earths resources far less than changing cars every three or four years however efficient they may be.

On the tax issue - you can add frying oil to diesel and some people do! Mainly those with old Rover 800's and the like. However, HM Custom & Excise - now part of the Inland Revenue, do require you to notify them.

They see it as tax avoidance.

They have to catch you tho' - but if they do a diesel colour check and you fuel is not dyed the right colour for the UK their response is similar to if you were running your car on agricultural diesel.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi guys - thanks for stating what I would have done! - I am on holiday now so do not and WILL NOT have a screen in front of me all day!!

But what a surprise - The contentious post is now admitted to be a lie so that a bizarre "point" can be made. How odd is that?

If my LPG kit used energy in its production - think what a brand new car would cost in environmental terms? Especially if it has to be transported half way around the world to get to me. It is recognised that by keeping an older car on the road and running it on LPG you cost the earths resources far less than changing cars every three or four years however efficient they may be.

On the tax issue - you can add frying oil to diesel and some people do! Mainly those with old Rover 800's and the like. However, HM Custom & Excise - now part of the Inland Revenue, do require you to notify them.

They see it as tax avoidance.

They have to catch you tho' - but if they do a diesel colour check and you fuel is not dyed the right colour for the UK their response is similar to if you were running your car on agricultural diesel.

Hello Clive

Hope you enjoy your holiday, though I would thought that your holdiay should be break from the manuy hours you spend on this forum!

Seriously and just a point of law. You claim the Inland Revinue would view the use of cooking oil added to taxable fuel oil as tax avoidance, technically avoidance is legal it is evasion that is illegal a small but important difference.

 

[Guest]

Gents,

This is getting too heavy for me. As they say in some of those ghastly game shows 'get me out of here'.

When it gets down to cooking oil, I only use sunflower oil myself, but not in the old jalopy. Yes, I know it can and is done but surely realism should prevail. The majority of us are stuck with good old petrol or diesel from the oil majors for our fuel source. I also have to stick my hand up and say 'guilty' as I worked for the oil industry so maybe I contributed to the problem, but I always endeavoured to do the best I could for the environment, if I, or anyone else didn't, my Company was fined heavily and the employee concerned was usually fired.

So, can we get back to the subject of towcars, the good and the bad. It is very helpful to hear other opinions whether or not one accepts them.#

Regards

David