Towing 1560 MTPLM with 85KG Towball Noseweight

[JohnJ_5040720]

I have been caravanning for 11 years now. For the last 9 years towing with my X-Trail 2.2 dci Columbia. From Brighton to Bridlington, Abbey Wood to Anglesey and once to France. Absolutely no problems.
Until 2 years ago towed 1400 MTPLM but then bought a Swift Challenger 580SE, which has a MTPLM of 1560 Kg.
The X-Trail has a 100 Kg nose weight so I can run the van up to it's maximum nose weight and think this has helped create a stable outfit.
However, as this outfit is now around match 100% with the car's kerbweight I have been looking to change the car and like the look of the Mazda CX7. However, it only has a nose weight of 85Kg.
85 Kg is around 5.5% of the van's MTPLM so just about fits with guidelines.
I have never tried to get the van down to a nose weight of 85 Kg and wonder if it is even possible?
Looking at various posts on the Forum, it seems to me that lots of people tow using these ratios, but would welcome any suggestions thoughts you might have.

 

[RogerL]

Actual noseweight is infinitely variable, under your control, as it depends totally on your loading regime.

Some of the noseweight is directly related to what's in your gas locker - I travel with 2x CalorLite cylinders and nothing else so I can carry the water/waste containers in the rear shower and load the front bed boxes to get my desired noseweight - other things like food in fridge and clothes in wardrobe aren't easy to move around.

 

[JohnJ_5040720]

Thanks for the response Roger.
I suppose having towed with the same car for the last nine years, with no issues at all, I'm just a bit hesitant to switch to a vehicle with lower nose weight limits, albeit with a couple of hundred Kg extra kerb weight and substantially more HP and Torque!
Maybe easier to stick with the Sant Fe, Sorento, Freelander type of tow car?

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

..........other things like food in fridge and clothes in wardrobe aren't easy to move around.

Clothes in wardrobe can be removed and carried in the car if need be.

 

[JohnJ_5040720]

Good point Woodlands Camper!
My wife always insists on clothes in suitcase(s), in car anyway. Nothing to do with Nose weight, MTPLM or anything. She has always had this dread of her "smalls" being scattered over the M-11 in the event of a disaster!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

But being realistic I have driven many different trailers with different vehicles, and I have found very few problems when I aim for about 75% to 90% of the towball limit. But every outfit is different, so its always suck it and see by taking it carefully until you are happy with the characteristics.

 

[Woodentop]

Note that the 7% guideline is on the weight of the caravan, not on its MPTLM which may be significantly higher.

It really does not matter what the noseweight is so long as the whole outfit is stable. My last caravan had a MPTLM of 1135Kg which we ran very close to, 7% of which is almost 80Kg, but my Octavia towcar ball limit was 65Kg so that is how we balanced the car up. We towed maybe 6000 miles across Europe in three years with this setup and never had any problems - it was rock steady.

 

[xtrailman]

The guidance has been 5 to 7% for some time now.
I tow a 1565kg at 80-88kg with no problems with a CX-5, with a rated NW limit of only 88kg.

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/6678669/noseweights-mo.pdf

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I think the other posts just about cover it, except to say that loading is more important than the lower noseweight but as a seasoned tower you know that already, like John I have towed many different outfits over the years from 50% ones to 120% ones and with varying noseweights from 40kg to 200kg with no issue's.
the last one being 40kg or 3% the weight of the van towed like a dream.
one other thing to remember 85kg is about 13.1/2 stone or the weight of a average adult male stood on the tow bar. should be plenty. also don't forget noseweights vary dynamically while towing your 100kg could have been as low as 50kg and as high as 200kg in some situations.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think the other posts just about cover it, except to say that loading is more important than the lower noseweight but as a seasoned tower you know that already, like John I have towed many different outfits over the years from 50% ones to 120% ones and with varying noseweights from 40kg to 200kg with no issue's.
the last one being 40kg or 3% the weight of the van towed like a dream.
one other thing to remember 85kg is about 13.1/2 stone or the weight of a average adult male stood on the tow bar. should be plenty. also don't forget noseweights vary dynamically while towing your 100kg could have been as low as 50kg and as high as 200kg in some situations.

Hello Colin
I'd go further and suggest that under relatively normal conditions such as towing over a speedbump, due to the accelerations (G forces) the bump creates, the actual nose weight can even go momentarily negative and then swing to more than the static applied load. This is applies to all caravans but even more so to twin axle trailers with independent suspensions (typical of TA caravans.)

Suffice to say the car and towbar manufacturers should be aware of these dynamic load changes and the equipment will have the appropriate margins built into the specification to accommodate them. Its because the G force is actually a multiplier (e.g an 80Kgf nose load subject to a 2G acceleration will produce a force of 160Kgf and so on) the physical tow bar mounting can actually handle much greater loads then we set up when stationary. This is why its perfectly safe to enter and move about inside a caravan whilst its hitched to the car for example when at services.

Incidentally through some testing work I was involved with many year s ago, we established the G forces at the hitch of a caravan towed over Belgium Pave surface produced peak values in excess of +/-10G for milliseconds second. These are rather like hammer blows rather than sustained loads, More prolonged G fores of +/- 3 to 4 G were noted lasting tenths of a second.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

eloquently put John. far better than I could have done. the gist of replies I give is based purely on personal experience.
however so are not shrouded in scientific fact I leave that to others like yourself.

what just amuses me [if that is the right word] sometimes is the almost fanatical obsession caravanners have with weights, of one kind or another, a view not taken by other hobbyists who use trailers [note] this does not make it wrong to do so but sometimes clouds the issues.
the law sets certain parameters, as long as one is inside these parameters your fine, [example] there is no need to ridgidly stick to 85% as a towable ratio providing the maximum train weight of the unit does not exceed that of the tow car your fine, and noseweight cannot be greater than that specified. by the towcar manufacturer or the trailer manufacturer. if there is a difference then the lowest one is the maximum allowed, and so on. simple.

the gist of the OP's question is that he is concerned that using a tow car with a lower noseweight than he is used to may make the unit less stable. there is no logical reason why this should be so, from experience I could inform him that reducing the noseweight can in many cases improve the towability of a particular trailer not worsen it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

I have a lot of sympathy with your last post. The dangers that many caravanners have are because they often load up to the limits and sometimes it too easy to go beyond the limit. That is never a good idea, and it many instances its is actually illegal, so there may be legal consequences as well as potential mechanical failures.

With regards running at low nose weights, all you need is enough to keep the outfit stable under your running conditions. Loading nose weight beyond that point, adds wear to the tow ball and hitch, It will cause your headlights to lift more than is necessary and for FWD cars the traction and steering will be slightly impaired. So taken to extremes yes more nose weight might be detrimental, but i suspect that if its kept within the manufacturer's limits it shouldn't be too bad.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hello John.
yes I have to agree, the trouble with caravans is there like a shed on wheels. owners tend to throw everything in there. while leaving the tow vehicle empty. this does 2 things, increases the tow load ratio, and raises the risk of overloading.

a simple thing like moving a few heavier items like awnings and a food box into the car can make a considerable difference to the towing ability of a unit.

the OP commented on the difficulty of reducing the noseweight from 100kg to 85kg and would rather choose a different tow car than try it. why!!! is only 15kg. or the weight of a full 6kg gas bottle. in fact it is less than that because moving one item of 10kg from the front of the axle to the back would reduce the nose load 20kg . crazy.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Have I converted you Colin?

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Have I converted you Colin?

from what John!!!

there is poem or a quote that goes something like this :-
"Yesterday I did not know what I do today.
Today I cannot not know what I will tomorrow.
when tomorrow comes it will be today.
but I will still know what I did yesterday",

 

[ProfJohnL]

From town gas to natural to LPG of course!!!!

No, seriously I applaud the pragmatic approach you have shown on this subject area. Too many have become lazy and rather than look at what the issues really are, they simply become blinkered and fall back on traditions which in too many case are technically outmoded.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

From town gas to natural to LPG of course!!!!

No, seriously I applaud the pragmatic approach you have shown on this subject area. Too many have become lazy and rather than look at what the issues really are, they simply become blinkered and fall back on traditions which in too many case are technically outmoded.

Absolutely I have to agree again John. we all have been guilty of this at some time, I well remember changing tow cars and had the task of reducing the nose weight from 80kg down to a max of 50kg, on a van that had 100kg on nose empty.
I started by removing all the stuff out of the front box and van that I had never used since I put it in there.
measured it again 20kg!! :woohoo: re-arranging internal items got it to 45kg perfect.

the easy option would have been to dismiss the vehicle as unsuitable as I KNEW I had the perfect loading in the van.
but if I had done that I would have missed out on the best little car I have owned that also turned out to be a cracking tow car for the weight of my van.

far too often we hear conventions and traditions dictate this or that when in fact a bit of thinking outside the box will solve most problems related to weights and loading issues.