Towing and the law what is actually happening

[Chris_5098414]

After a few years absence my wife and I have just brought a Coachman however despite being advised that our Peugeot 306 estate was an able towcar it would seem that the 520/4 is somewhat heavy.

We've been looking around for an alternative but everyone seems to have different opinions about the law etc some say 85% some say upto kerbweight of max of your vehicle.... some feedback would be great as we need to get something else in the next few weeks to make sure we arrive in one piece I think.

 

[rayc]

chris, There is no maximum weight you can tow legally unless it exceeds one of the car manufacturers technical limits i.e. Max tow , nose weight limit, max train weight. The other point is that if you passed your driving test after approx 1997 and you have only B entitlement, and not B+E, you cannot tow a van with a MPTLM greater than the kerbweight of the car.

The 85% limit you mention is advisary and recommended by reputable organisations with an absolute max of 100% for an experienced tower.

In your case of van, which I guess has a MPTLM of 1400kg or so, I personally would advise that you have a car with a kerbweight of approx 1550kg or more, has a 2ltr engine, has a noseweight of minimum 60kg (preferably 75kg) and a train weight of 3400kg or more. If you wish to discuss any of the reasons for the above then please ask.

 

[Icemaker]

chris, we bought a coachman pastiche 520/4 in 2004 and where told that our peugeot 406 was more than capable to tow it however on our very first trip with the van we had to brake quite hard on a roundabout near home due to some idiot changing lane at the last moment as we aproached the roundabout, despit the car having abs brakes and being mechanically sound we where pushed with car skidding straight on to the roundabout by the vans weight. this frightened us so much we went right round the roundabout and took the van home then spent the weekend looking for another heavier tow car.

After checking with towsafe we decided to be extra safe and bought a discovery which was great as a tow car but a real drain on fuel to commute to work so we swapped it for a ford galaxy and now a seat alhambra tdi both of which are superb towcars, more than capable of towing a 520/4 infact for six month our galaxy towed our laser 590/4 untill some d******d in a transit wrote the van off for us, we now own an ace celebration 590 twin axle and the alhambra tows it superb.

The law on towing is not as straight cut as it used to be and even now i get a bit confused so i always use tow safe to check but from what i beleive we are adviced to tow no more than 85% of our cars kerbweight but this is only a guideline, if the cars max tow limit is lower than the kerbweight then we can only tow up to 100% of that limit likewise if the cars max tow limit is higher than the kerbweight then we can tow up to that limit as long as we do not exceed the max train weight of the towing car, although i would not recomend exceeding the kerbweight with a caravan due to the height and bulk of it. i have an official letter from renault uk that i received yesterday advicing me of the towing guidelines that they publish as i quieried theire publication of towing limits with driver only in brackets, i will try to scan the letter and copy it to this thread but im no computer wiz so please dont hold your breath. if any of the above is incorect i appologise and im sure some one will put it right.

 

[Lutz]

Sounds as though something was wrong with the brakes on your caravan if the braking distance increased when towing the caravan. Regardless of the weight of the towcar, the braking distance should actually be less because the nose of the caravan will tend to dip on braking, thereby increasing the load on the rear axle of the car and consequently improve the car's braking performance by reducing weight transfer on to its front wheels.

The recommendation to have a relatively heavy towcar is to reduce the possibility of a snake, not to reduce braking distance.

 

[Chris_5098414]

My god this is fantastic thanks very much for your quick replies. I've been pulling my hair out over which car to get spent all day looking at Nissan Terrano, Ford Maverick and Mitsubishi Shoguns and the like but didn't really think a Galaxy, Sharan or Alhambra would be any good...

Off to find us one of these after seeing a few glowing reports saying how good these are, thanks again

 

[MONKEY1]

Hi Chris,

Just to endorse Icemakers review. Re the Galaxy/Alhambra/Sharan axis - a brilliant tow car better possibly in manual form but all the same very capable in Auto form

Kindest regards Monkeys husband

 

[Jim.M_5040716]

Chris

You do not say if you'r Peugeot 306 is petrol or diesel.

The Caravan/towing vehicle weight ratio has a major influence on stability. It is recomended that.

1 The actual laden weight of the caravan should be kept as low as posible, The lower it is when the van is being towed the safer it will be, Ideally the actual laden weight of the caravan should not be 85% of the kerbside weight of the tow car.

2 The actual laden weight of the caravan can be as much as the kerbside weight of the towing vehicle, Depending on driver experience,{ at least five years of towing}this is a maybe, not a recomendation.

3 Care must always be taken not to exceed the towing vehicles limits, inculding the towing vehicle maximum train weight which takes preference over the above ratios.

4 The law requiers that towing vehicles and the load they carry must be in such condition that no danger is caused to any other road user.

Towing vehicle suitability.

The performance of the towing vehicle has an important bearing on suitablity.

No hard and fast rules can be stated but, as a general guide petrol engines with a capacity of around 1,600cc and diesel around 1800cc should be adequate for towing a van at 85% of the kerbside weight.

The choice is personal, but diesel is preferable as it is designed as a weight lugger, that the power to achieve, is at the low end whereas with petrol it is at the top end.

The requierment for licences is

That a full licence is requiered to tow a caravan, from January 1997 the new category B Car entitlement, vehic les may be coupeledwith a trailer up to 750kg MAS allowing a combined weightof up to 4.2tonnes mam or a trailer over750kg mam provided the mam of the trailer dose not exceed the unladen of the towing vehicle and the combination dose not exceed3.5 tonnes.

New drivers of outfits over these limits must take bategory B+E test.

Further information on any of these issues can be found on the website at www.dvla.gov.uk

I hope this has been a help to you Chris. Happy caravaning

regards

Jim M

 

[Lutz]

Comment on item 2 of your reply, Jim M:

There is no legal limit on the weight of the caravan not being more than the kerbweight of the car (other than that imposed by the driving licence). The only restriction other than the manufacturer's specification is that 4x4's may not tow more than 1.5 times their kerbweight. This is because the law does not differentiate between high sided caravans and any other type of trailer. So long as due care is taken, low trailers can safely be towed at well over 100%.

 

[GrahamW]

Clarification please

My eldest passed his test on the 21st January 1997, so a number of questions come to mind.

1, What if anything can he legally tow now?

2, What does he have to do to get the relevent class of vehicle on his license to allow him to tow a large caravan or trailer?.

3, Is there a seperate Dept of Transport test,? he does not really need to do a towing course as he is very competant at it already.

 

[Lutz]

He can legally tow a trailer of up to 750kg or one over that so long its maximum permissible weight does not exceed the kerbweight of the towing vehicle and the gross permissible combined weight does not exceed 3.5 tonnes. Note that the maximum permissible figures apply, not the actual.

Beyond that he would have to pass a test for a category B+E licence.

 

[Jim.M_5040716]

Clarification please

My eldest passed his test on the 21st January 1997, so a number of questions come to mind.

1, What if anything can he legally tow now?

2, What does he have to do to get the relevent class of vehicle on his license to allow him to tow a large caravan or trailer?.

3, Is there a seperate Dept of Transport test,? he does not really need to do a towing course as he is very competant at it already.

Hi Graham,

Category "B" vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kg mam Allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes mam,Provided the mam of the trailerdose not exceedthe unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination dose not exceed 3.5tonnes,This is equivalent to the old three ton bread van.

If your son requiers B+E the test is carried out at the HGV test centres, the test includes manuvering the trailer to the left and right into marked bays, then general driveing this lasts for one hour,

If he has taken a C&CC course the manuvering part is not required on the test. If he is competent at manuvering then go for it .

Good luck

Jim M

 

[Icemaker]

Lutz, sorry for the delay in replying to you i have been unwell this week so not been on the pc, the caravan was on its first trip and was in perfect working order as was the car which was superb solo. what apparently happened according to peugeot technical was that the caravan was right at the top of the cars limits, we had been ill adviced by the caravan dealer. apparently when i hit the brakes hard all four wheels on the car locked up together and the cars abs thought the car was at a standstill when it was infact skidding therefore it did not work as it should have done, we only had the caravans brakes and the friction of the skidding car to stop us which on the wet road was not enough. we never had a problem with the pastiche once we swapped the car to a heavier one, the 406 is a great car but it was not too well suited to a coachman pastiche which is as all coachmans are due to theire superior build quality a heavy van. what i was trying to say is that if my 406 was incapable of towing a 520/4 safely then chris's 306 is most definately not.

 

[Lutz]

Sorry to hear you were not well and I hope you're feeling better now.

Rather peculiar that explanation from Peugeot because it also suggests that the same could happen if the car was subject to an emergency brake when fully laden and solo. If the car's ABS thought that the car was at a standstill because all 4 wheels were locked up, then this could surely also occur when not towing, leaving you with little or no braking performance at all. The ABS should never have allowed this to happen and you were lucky that you still had the caravan's brakes to slow you down.

The caravan's brakes should be capable of stopping the caravan and it should not be pushing the car. That's why I suspected that the caravan's brakes were not adjusted correctly but it appears that the car's ABS was not working properly instead.

 

[RogerL]

ABS stands for Anti-lock Braking System.

If the Peugot system allows the wheels to lock under some circumstances, it's not ABS - no other manufacturers vehicles allow this even though the components are made by a couple of companies for the whole industry.

Advanced Drivers and Police drivers are taught to apply absolutely maximum pedal pressure when emergency braking in an ABS-equipped car. This advice couln't be given if Peugeot's explanation was correct.

Icemaker should get onto Peugeot themselves, not the dealer, for clarification and not accept their previous explanation.

 

[mcghee]

If your caravan brakes are properly adjusted they should lock before your car brakes otherwise your 'van would always be pushing your car when slowing or travelling downhill, which would be a bad thing. I'd get them checked out before I went out again.

 

[Icemaker]

roger, you are corect in that abs stands for anti lock brakes and that is exactely what they are "anti" they are not a complete and fool proof sytem as explained to me by peugeot when this incident happened almost three years ago. now i will try to remember as much of what they said but it was a long time ago, basically the abs system measures a difference in speed form one wheel to another, if the front right wheel should be rotating slower than the front left then the abs will quickly apply and release the brake to the front right wheel as it knows that that wheel is sliding, it knows this becouse all the other wheels are still moving. the system is able to work on this principle as long as at least one wheel keeps rotating however if in extreme cases the brakes are applied and all four wheels are locked together as they did with me on a wet and greasy road then the cars abs sytem will not work as it has nothing to calculate against, the car thinks it has stopped, have you ever seen the abs light come on or felt the judder of it working whilst sat at the lights stationary with your foot on the brake ? its exactely the same thing. this is the same with all cars not just peugeots it is just that i had a 406 at the time.

today i have asked the technical director at our train maintenance depot how the abs sytem works and explained to him what happened to me, most of the trains i drive are fitted with abs brakes but we still slip and slide in leaf fall season, he adviced me that the abs sytem on the trains in no different to a cars in that it measures the difference in speed from one wheel to the other, only on a train it workes off the axle as both wheels are fixed to one axle. if the front axle stops and the other 7 keep turning then the abs will operate on the front axle and any other axle that is turning slower than the fastest turning axle, but even on a train weighing in excess of 400 tonnes we can lock up all 8 axles together in extreme cases, rail contamination is like a greasy road and the train will just slide as the abs thinks it is at a standstill. no wheels are turning why should the train or car think it is moving ?. the word "anti" gives the game away really as in anti freeze or anti theft it woint stop it happening it will just help avoid it.

 

[mcghee]

Most ABSs lock at 15-20mph, otherwise your car would never stop.

 

[Lutz]

If the ABS control system thinks the car is standing still, there is something wrong with the logic because it is more than unlikely that all 4 wheels loose traction by the same amount at exactly the same time. There is bound to be a time difference, however, small between one wheel skidding and the other three. During that time, ABS would have an opportunity to deploy.

I don't have detailed knowledge of ABS systems but I would have thought that their control system also includes an accelerometer which senses that the car is slowing down less quickly than the wheels immediately prior to locking up. As soon as this signal is given, the brakes would be automatically released again.

Perhaps there is someone else in this forum who knows more about ABS but I just can't imagine that ABS which is working correctly would allow the condition which you mention to occur. It would be plainly dangerous.

 

[RogerL]

ABS works by measuring differences in rotational speed of each wheel. Some may have an accelerometer but most don't.

I think that the chances of all four wheels slowing down at exactly the same rate until they're all locked to be impossibly rare.

Cars don't have perfectly balanced front to rear braking so one end or the other would start to lock, initiating the ABS.

I simply wouldn't accept this explanation from Peugot or anyone else - the most likely explanation is that the ABS wasn't working at that particular time. Faulty wheel sensor is a relatively common problem for a number of car makes. This can and does "turn off" the ABS until the sensor fault is fixed.

 

[cris_408518]

Sorry guys, but is there not something to to with traction control in with most ABS systems these days.

Just a thought !

 

[Icemaker]

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the car or the caravan both where checked bye the dealers who sold them to me and both where in 100% perfect working order which is why peugeot went to length they did to explain what had "probably" happened.

Chris, traction control is in relation to your car losing traction under power not under braking, it reduces power to a wheel that is slipping and increases power to the wheels that are gripping, you may be getting confused with active corner enhancement devices which do apply a slight amount of brake automatically if the car is driven beyond its limits in corners to bring the car back under your control.

 

[RogerL]

Some simple traction control systems are single phase and just cut engine power but most are two phase and also apply brakes to whichever wheel(s) need retarding if cutting engine power isn't enough.

 

[Chris_5098414]

Many thanks for all the replies despite the discussions ever so slightly off piste'

Anyway we've ended up with a Mondeo Estate 130 TDCi which should be fine. As the Alhambra etc were over our budget, plus i've since found out that I can get a company car so this will do in the mean time until I can get my hands on a free car so to speak. No point putting the miles on my own now is there !

 

[jon_5103124]

hi,

I'm a novice reading your notes and have a question for you seasoned tourers.

I've purchased an 1994 Elddis wisp 450 et showing a maximum load of 1080kg. the kerbweight of the car is 1300kg. Now the thing is, my car is an 06 plate Astra Cabriolet 1800 petrol on 17" low profiles. Tow bars are available at

 

[jon_5103124]

ps ladies and gents.

The caravans body is 15ft, and I'm planning on keeping the roof up whilst towing...

Hope you can help, 'm now stressing!