towing on a b license

[magoclarke]

Hi Im sure this has been asked before but i was reading the gov.uk website about towing and just needed this clarifying. It states that on a licence gained after 2013 you can:
tow a trailer over 750kg as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
but if your license was between 97-13 you can:
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg
Its the same i know but why is it written different? do they mean that pre 2013 the actual weight has to be below 3500 or mam?
thanks craig

 

[Raywood]

I think the change is correct and was done to bring us into line with the rest of Europe. The actual weight is a major problem for Police as it needs the combination being weighed and if damaged in an accident is impossible. With the MAMs the calculation is fairly simple so is easier to apply.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

in essence that is correct, although there have been interesting discussions of the years about the interpretation of the meanings, it seems the law makers have finally cleared the obscure wording.

 

[magoclarke]

Thanks for replies but it still doesn't answer my question. A lot of people including myself would fall under the pre 2013 liscense which has massive implications. From 2013 it is clear as its explained. Trouble is if they mean the total weight as opposed to mam they can't back track on that. Has anyone towed a caravan on a b liscense held during 97-13.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Craig,

Just for the record you have actually miss quoted the wording, but I understand your concern. This element of the licence regulations on the Gov't web site was in my view always ambiguous and open to erroneous interpretation. You have to remember the web site is written by a civil servant and is not the actual wording of the regulation which is somewhat longer. If a case were brought against a driver, the driver could not rely on the web site wording, as ignorance is no excuse in law.

One interpretation of the 97 version suggests you should look at all the sentences being mutually applied. The meaning of the word vehicle is inclusive and include car and trailer, in which case there is no argument about the 3500kg MAM limit.

What is particularly annoying is the difficulty in getting to see the actual regulations for direct comparison.

It is my understanding that the EU wording has always refered to the MAM and combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg, it has been the UK Govt web site that has been misleading.

I disagree with you about the wording being the same, it isn't and its significantly different as you allude. It does have implications for any Cat B driver that has opted to use the inference that the combined MAM may exceed 3500, provided the actual weight is less than 3500kg.

 

[Raywood]

The Caravan Club leaflet states the MAM of the combination should not exceed 3,500 on a B licence but does not say who advised this. The balance of opinion is probably in favour of this argument but it would need some brave soul to test this in court to be sure.
The leaflet can be found at
http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/1022874/drivers-licences-mo.pdf

 

[chrisbee1]

I think the Prof's last paragraph sums it up perfectly.

 

[intransient1]

Hi Craig,
ProfJohnL is bang on the combined weight of loaded van and car can't exceed 300 kg.
There is a video on u tube of a Dutch family being checked on the autobahn who had to have the caravan collected as they were 200 kg over.
There are a lot of combinations that fall in time this category so you will have a plenty to choose from.

 

[intransient1]

3500kg not 300

 

[magoclarke]

So we agree that I could tow a caravan with a mam of 1300kg with my car at 2260kg mam? so long as its not over 3500kg actual weight?

 

[ProfJohnL]

So we agree that I could tow a caravan with a mam of 1300kg with my car at 2260kg mam? so long as its not over 3500kg actual weight?

Hello again Craig,

NO - we don't agree.
Your B only licence category only licences you to drive a vehicle or combination of car and trailer whose combined MAM does not exceed 3500kg. This in my opinion has been the correct interpretation of the Cat B regulation ever since Jan 1997 up to date. The MAM's of vehicles and trailers are immovable fixed values and do not change.

Effectively your licence category tells you what the largest vehicle you can drive is. its like being told you can carry a one gallon bucket. you are not permitted to carry a 2 gallon bucket even if its only half filled. If you don't have Cat B+E then you must not exceed a combined MAM of 3500kg, even if you only part load.

I'm sorry if this is not what you wanted to read, but it is the way the regulations should be interpreted and it is the way to be certain of remaining legal.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

post deleted, [wrong information]

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

After much searching I have found this

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/schedule/2/made?view=plain
This is the The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999 which I believe is the current act.

Please check the wording for Cat B which reads:-

B
Motor vehicles, other than vehicles included in category A, F, K or P, having a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes and not more than eight seats in addition to the driver’s seat, including:

(i)a combination of any such vehicle and a trailer where the trailer has a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 750 kilogrammes, and
(ii)a combination of any such vehicle and a trailer where the maximum authorised mass of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and the maximum authorised mass of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the tractor vehicle.

This act was modified in 2013 by The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012,
see

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/977/made
which became law in 19th Jan 2013. The change to the provision for Cat B is identified in "in supplementary item 43" (about 3/4 of the way down the doc)

"(vi) in relation to the entry for category B in column (1)—
(aa) for the entry in column (2) substitute—“Motor vehicles, other than vehicles included in category Q, AM, A, F or K, having a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes and not more than eight seats in addition to the driver’s seat, including:
(i)a combination of any such vehicle and a trailer where the trailer has a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 750 kilograms; and
(ii)a combination of any such vehicle and a trailer where the maximum authorised mass of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes.”;

The difference is the removal of the trailers MAM not exceeding the tractors ULW as highlighted in green

This I believe is the current state of play - I rest my case.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

OK John. fair enough that is the first reference I have seen that actually uses the term MAM and not maximum.
they say you learn something new every day.

 

[Jules_ht]

Where does the provisional B+E entitlement that comes with a B entitlement come in?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jules.

when you pass your basic test, the licence you receive entitles you to Cat B. It in addition entitles you to use your basic licence as a provisional licence for Cat B+E.

As with other provisional entitlements, it restricts you in several ways such as requiring you to have a fully entitled driver supervising you whist training to take the stage test.

Because the Cat B only allows you to drive a vehicle and braked trailer whose combined MAM is no greater than 3500kg that can be quite restrictive, especially for drivers with a heavy tow cars as the 3500kg limit only allows a small caravan to be towed.

Especially as caravanners tend to upgrade to bigger cars and caravans, the +E element keeps the maximum car MAM at 3500kg, but it allows the driver to haul a trailer up to the Gross Train Weight set by the vehicle manufacturer.

The wording in the act is:-

"B+E Combinations of a motor vehicle and trailer where the tractor vehicle is in category B but the combination does not fall within that category."

In your specific case if your combined MAM is greater than 3500 (which from memory it's 3560kg, then you need to have the +E stage to your Cat B.

look online to find companies that offer +E training.

Please note, it is the responsibility of the driver to ensure their vehicle is road legal and safe. If in the opinion of the police or VOSA a particular vehicle and trailer combination is unsafe (if that is proved by definition it makes it illegal) they can still stop you, even if the weights are within their specification limits.

 

[Jules_ht]

Guess what I was asking was whether you could just chuck L plates on the back of the outfit and drive it on your provisional (with or without having someone in the car with a +E entitlement).

It was a theoretical question (I'm not the OP; in my specific case (a) the max laden weight of my car and van is < 3500kg, and (b) I passed my test in 93 and have +E entitlement anyway!)

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sorry Jules if I got you mixed up

Even so the information maybe useful

 

[Jules_ht]

Indeed, although I'm not sure the subject has been exhausted; the remaining question being, what are the conditions one must meet to utilise the provisional +E entitlement to tow a train of > 3500Kg on the UK roads?

I'm guessing L plates and someone in the car who has a full +E entitlement, but that's just a guess. If it's a correct guess, it seems feasible that a driver with a more recent license (for example who might be married to someone who has had a license for longer but isn't comfortable towing), could legally and practically tow an overweight train on the provisional entitlement on an ongoing basis.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jules,

To be honest I don't know what specific criteria need to be considered when applying to add the +E entitlement. I don't know if a driver working towards the +E can drive the outfit without an authorised instructor.

I suggest you contact an organisation that is authorised to train you for the +E.

 

[Raywood]

So we agree that I could tow a caravan with a mam of 1300kg with my car at 2260kg mam? so long as its not over 3500kg actual weight?

It looks that way but not totally sure.

 

[ProfJohnL]

So we agree that I could tow a caravan with a mam of 1300kg with my car at 2260kg mam? so long as its not over 3500kg actual weight?

It looks that way but not totally sure.

Hello Ray,

Following some more detailed research I carried out earlier in this thread, the debate about the interpretation of the wording on the

https://www.gov.uk/old-driving-licence-categories
is now very much clearer.

The actual government regulations can be found here :-

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/sc...le/2/made?view=plain

and the amened regulations here:-

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/977/made

These are the real regulations and not the over simplified Gov.UK web site (which is misleading) the wording on the applicable Cat B criteria is "Combined MAM" not exceeding 3500kg.

There has been forum discussion concerning how the noseweight is accommodated in the context of maximum towed weights specifications, so far I have not found any evidence the same 'trade off' is allowed when establishing the 'combined MAM' for driving licence categories. Consequently the safe solution is to assume no dispensation is allowed and the combined MAM calculation is the simple summation of the tractor and trailer's individual MAM's

Craig has not specifically told us when he passed his basic test, but as all the correspondence has been about Cat B only (i.e. post 1997), so it is reasonable to assume Craig only has a Cat B. Craig also tells he has a caravan of MAM 1300kg and a car of MAM 1260kg this gives a combined MAM of 3560kg.

On that basis it is clear from information available that Craig cannot tow his 3560kg outfit without a Cat B+E licence.

 

[RayS]

The rules are more relaxed for those who passed their test before 1st January 1997 so check you actual test date. I carry a print out of this page at all times when towing. together with a copy of my pass document December 1955.

see;www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Driverliccensing/CaravansTrailersCommercial...

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray S

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