Towing Widths

[CarolineSimon]

Well done Rod for bringing this topic up.

Why shouldn't we be allowed to tow 2.5 metre wide vans? Eurocrates generally tell us everything else we can't do so its about time we started doing things that they can do.

We would love to have a 2.5 wide van but don't want to have to tow with a commercical vehicle when our car can happily pull one well within its towing ratios, its just that UK law says we can't.

Obviously size is down to individual choice but for us we would have had a far better layout with more internal room for the children with only 20 cms more width than our legal van.

Common sense comes into play too as they shouldn't be sold to anyone who doesn't have a capable tow car or the relevant licence for towing and experience.

Narrow roads could and should be avoided and maybe it would rule out CL's but that is my choice.Therefore towing shouldn't cause any more problems than standard width vans.

We live in a democratic country and I would just like to freedom of choice on my van as they cost a lot of hard earned money and it would be nice to be able to choose from larger some of the continental models instead of being limited to UK spec ones.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Caroline & Simon,

I too cannot see why the wider continental caravans should not be towed by Private & Light Goods' vehicles with the necessary MTPLM capacity.

All the necessary legislation is there and it does not require any new restrictions - only the removal of the current max width for PLG vehicles

However I do not agree with the principal that the seller must vet the purchasers tow vehicle for compatibility before being allowed to make a sale.

If the seller were to have any liability for the purchaser's choice, then what would happen if the purchaser changed their tug at a later date? That is in my view is unnecessary as it is currently the drivers responsibility to ensure that their outfit is road legal.

With a wider caravan perhaps the choice of some routes may be restricted, but only as much as for commercial vehicles of the same width.

It would be up to the site operators to make any restrictions with regard to width, and that would be part of their site rules or access instructions.

 

[cris_408518]

Making caravans wider will only alienate others towards caravanners withe wider caravans blocking the view ahead.

At the end of the day anybody can go and buy a suiatable tow car and it doesn't mean the driver is capable of towing a wider van safely.

If caravans were to be as wide as an HGV then a HGV style towing test should be taken. So many caravanning areas are accessed in the UK by narrow roads and village high streets wider vans are just not appropriate.

 

[allen1]

Hello Caroline & Simon,

I too cannot see why the wider continental caravans should not be towed by Private & Light Goods' vehicles with the necessary MTPLM capacity.

All the necessary legislation is there and it does not require any new restrictions - only the removal of the current max width for PLG vehicles

However I do not agree with the principal that the seller must vet the purchasers tow vehicle for compatibility before being allowed to make a sale.

If the seller were to have any liability for the purchaser's choice, then what would happen if the purchaser changed their tug at a later date? That is in my view is unnecessary as it is currently the drivers responsibility to ensure that their outfit is road legal.

With a wider caravan perhaps the choice of some routes may be restricted, but only as much as for commercial vehicles of the same width.

It would be up to the site operators to make any restrictions with regard to width, and that would be part of their site rules or access instructions.

Hi caroline/simon

I have towed a 2.5 mtr wide and 8.5 mtr in length caravan with a Kia Sedona for several years,the sedona is a large mpv and it did not look out of place with this size caravan. We also used cls no problem at all on every other w/end as well as club sites.But the law is the law and its up to you if you are willing to take the risk,even if its daft law

all the best ,Allen

 

[cris_408518]

So according to Allens comment he is towing an illegal rig, where does that leave him and his family and the rest of us when he hits us or someone else?

I can't see that his insurers will be keen to pay up!

He says he visits CL's so I take it he is in the UK!

 

[allen1]

Hi chris,

The caravan was insured by the N.F.U and the car with Churchill both companies were aware of the size of van I had and both companies covered me for travel in europe as well,for 6 months at a time.

Both companies also payed up when I was hit by a young mum in her toyoto 4x4, she hit the sedona when I was returning the caravan to storage,and when the caravan went up in flames.

Im begining to feel a little jinxed now,thanks chris.I then bought a Lunar Delta 640 EW which I bought privately from the internet but thats another story.the moral being if you tell the insurance company they seem quite happy.All the best Allen

 

[cris_408518]

Now I'm really interested.

One minute an over width caravan is illegal being towed by lightweight UK vehicles on UK roads but now we have two insurers that are happy to insure and payout on an illegal rig!

Could somebody explain please.

 

[mcghee]

Cris, I tow an 8ft wide Hobby with a Grand Cherokee. My insurance company (CIS) are quite happy with this and are in fact one of the few insurers who cover these 'vans. Exactly how they can insure an illegal combination I'm not sure, but they do. In terms of towing an 8ft wide 'van, the extra width is almost unnoticable to the point where the majority of people have to be told its wider than normal.

 

[cris_408518]

I can't beleive that in a serious accident that all hell would be let loose with Police and Insurers squabling.

It's either legal or illegal, if it's illegal consider yourself un insured in my book and I think you are mad to be on UK road with such a rig.

If a guilty party in an accident with you realsied that your rig was over width and illegal on UK roads I would exoect them to take you to the cleaners, after all you shouldn't be on the road. SORRY !

 

[Ewan_5130997]

From experience, insurers are quite happy to cover you....until you have to claim. Then the fact that the width is illegal will suddenly give them an out...

 

[cris_408518]

I think somebody has the wrong end of the stick here or they are taking a great risk and not telling the insurers the truth about what they are towing.

I've called NFU and they say the maximum width caravan they will insurers is 2.3 metres wide and that they and they would guess no other UK insurer would insure a caravan that was illegal on UK roads.

I suggest any UK car owner towing a Hobby or over witdth van on UK roads with an under weight Car call their insurers and ask if they really insure an Illegal outfit.

Otherwise you and others amongst us could have a very sorry time.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello,

A number of contributors are suggesting that the typical continental caravans which are 8ft (2.4M) wide restrict the view ahead significantly more that our British size which is 7' 8" (2.3M). This is a difference of only 4inches or 0.1M.

I personally do not see that as a big issue, and you are likely to see a much bigger difference caused by the way different people tow and their positioning in the carriageway.

HGVs must also present the same issues, so perhaps we should ban them as well? Or is it a stereotypical response that a large wide caravan must belong to some members of our society that tend act antisocially and do not to have a permanent address!

I really do not see a problem, Provided the outfit is road legal, and driven responsibly, then why should 4" make so much difference?

 

[cris_408518]

Vans have got wider and wider John.

Most trucks are being driven day in and day out.

I cant see anything wrong with the old 2.19 metre wide caravan, it works both ways, Only 4". Well than you don't really need it.

That extra width has to kept away from the kerb so you end up with these wide vans on or stradling the centre of the road. Plus many villgaes and towns have enough problems with wide vehicles without letting part time drivers out with truck sized width caravan outfits. If you want more space just stick a proper awning on the wider van swill prevent many from overtaking and give us all a worse name.

 

[Lutz]

But what makes the situation in the UK so special that the extra 4" are such a problem? Besides, the 2.5m width is not prohibited in principle, only that it requires a towcar with a GVW of over 3.5 tonnes, which is irrational. Using a truck to tow the caravan doesn't give other traffic more space on the road. If any, quite the opposite.

 

[cris_408518]

Towing a wider van with a truck you do at least have something that is more like the width of the caravan unlike most cars that would be used.

I think that the 2.3 mtetre wide vans are to wide for many UK roads and many towing Caravans in the UK. we see quite a few caravans heading along our local narrow A roads bounded by hedge rows headin I guess towards the south coast Winchester< salisbury and probabaly a few CL's not to far away. Some of the drivers have no idea of how close or how far they are from hedgerows and even on the dtriaght raods where you could overtake the wider vans make it a risky manouvre.

Many with a new 2.5 metre wide Senator or the like would be loath to get an incy tincy scratch from a hadgerow on their new pride and joy.

Many Uk roads are not very wide and we have anough trucks struggling to get through the gaps without Mable and Albert and the Grand Kids panicking at evey narrowing of the road.

It's worked for years in the UK and it's time we gorgot all the Eurocratic Trash Rules and stood for whats OK here.

My main concern is that these people towing the things on UK roads with underweight 4x4's are not insured !

 

[Lutz]

It would be more logical if one had to have a towcar of a certain minimum width in order to be able to tow a 2.5m wide caravan but to specify a minimum GVW, as is currently the case, is absolutely absurd.

If I'm not mistaken, in Norway, which, because of its many mountain passes also has relatively narrow roads but also allows 2.5m wide caravans, the towcar must be not more than 50cm narrower that the trailer or else the extension mirrors have to be fitted with forward facing reflectors. Now I can understand the logic of that.

Prohibiting 2.5m caravans but at the same time allowing 2.5m wide trucks is discrimination against caravanners. As if the few wider caravans on the roads would make an appreciable difference to traffic.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Cris,

I'm sorry but I don't see the mountains you do.

We already have wide HGV's, and we cope with them. Now I do agree that HGV drivers are probably more experienced, but how did they get that experience?, and how do most caravanners work out how to drive with their first shed on wheels?

If you are concerned about the opportunities to overtake a wider outfit, then you have to take into account the possibility that the driver might need to move out to avoid an obstruction causing the caravan to move out and narrow the passing gap (this applies to both wide and narrow vans) or the outfit might become unstable due to the complex airflows as you move past.

It might be of interest to note that, I.K. Brunell suggested that we should adopt a broad gauge railway, because amongst other things it is inherently more stable than a narrower gauge. The same would apply to caravans.

As for wide caravan outfits being underpowered, I'm not convinced. Consider if as you suggest most of these 'monsters' are pulled by 4x4s, well most of these politically incorrect vehicles probably have healthier power outputs than most commercial 'Transit' type vans.

Are these vans monsters? - well some are not only wider but are longer too, but many of the continentals touring vans have the extra width but are not significantly longer than UK models.

Yes they are wider but I really don't see the difficulty, they just have to be treated with same concerns as any wide vehicle by both the driver and other road users.

You my take my answer as having no objection to wider caravans.

 

[cris_408518]

John

On the basis that if it's OK for a truck to be 2.5 metres wide we might as well all have 2.5 metre wide cars !

A good proportion of drivers towing Caravans shouldn't be let loose in a Smart car let alone a huge rig that max's out bigger than a lot of trucks.

Truck drivers with a rig around 12 metres have passed a test and have health checks etc.

If its only 4 inches extra on the van you don't need it. Keeping the extra width from the side of our narrow roads will just be a menace.

Just the thought of growing numbers of 2.5 metre vans reducing visibility ahead for fellow caravanners who wish to pass the holiday day dreaming tuggers apart from other road users getting more frustrated is just not worth thinking of.

 

[Lutz]

I think you are grossly overrating the potential problem, Cris. You make it sound that everyone will change over to 2.5m wide caravans if they were made legal. You can be fairly certain that only the serious caravanner will and only then if he/she feels that the 4" each side is really worthwhile. In general, this applies primarily to caravans with a fixed double bed where you want access to each side of the bed and at the same time a respectable width of the double bed itself. Most of the "holiday day dreaming tuggers", as you describe them, will find a 2.5m caravan just too daunting and remain with a smaller one. Also frequent tourers will, no doubt, prefer to stay with 2.3m.

 

[cris_408518]

Obviously it would take time with the numbers of vans on the road Lutz. But as soon as they were made legal the numbers would grow and they will be the one other moan about and remember and we'll all be tarred and feathered together.

Many of the "holiday day dreaming tuggers" are towing the largest caravans with large tow cars that are under used now, once they see a bigger legal van the that will be it. The ld one will be traded in with little thought.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Cris,

Yes of course if wider caravans are legalised then the occurrence is likely to increase.

I am sure that if you were to analyse your own mileage, you would probably find that most of it is done on roads where 2.5m wide vehicles are not a significant obstruction, (except when they travel at slow speeds), and compared to HGV's the number of caravans is in reality quite low.

Yes a wide caravan in front of you may be an inconvenience but no more so than a 2.5m lorry or bus.

I am not ignoring the training that HGV drivers have and the other hurdles to keep their licences. But that is not an argument to keep caravan widths down. It could be equally argued that existing caravans should be no wider than the towing car, that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!

Perhaps the standard driving licence should be amended to limit new drivers to a maximum width vehicle/trailer of 2.3M, and the B+E cats also include extra wide trailers. :-0

 

[Lutz]

A nice thought as a possible compromise, John, but as driving licences are being made common throughout the EU, I would think the other countries involved wouldn't go along with the idea. And before everyone starts jumping on the anti-EU bandwagon because of that, the pan-European licence is being brought in as a measure to prevent drivers from getting a new licence in foreign EU country while still being banned from driving in their home country - a widespread practice among those that have had their licence taken off them. At least, the common EU licence will put a stop to that, which can't be a bad thing.

Besides, with a common licence, there will be no need to swap licences when moving permanently from one country to another.

 

[cris_408518]

Getting the UK more tied in to Europe has to be a bad move, hopefully some one will see sense and get us out quick.

Even Lutz says he doesn't think other countries involved would go along with our ideas. So if a measure was thought good for safety here re driving we are stuffed again by Europe. No doubt the Eurocrats will be making more money out of us with the licences.

Plus the Pan European Licence does not prevent you having another license at all, who came up with that dozy idea?

No doubt we've been conned yet again by Brussels!

 

[Hamer_5041128]

2.3 metres is just under 7feet 6inches not 7feet 8 inches.

2.5 metres is just over 8 feet.

This is an extra 3 inches on both sides. I tow a 2.3 metre Swift Conqueror with a 2004 Shogun and need extension mirrors to see down both sides of the caravan. The law states you must be able to see each rear corner of the cravan in your mirrors. I could not find another mirror which would extend beyond the ones I purchased.If a mirror could be found which would extend a further 3 inches it would probably vibrate so much that you would not be able to see anything in it.

Hamer.

 

[Lutz]

I'm sure that if wider caravans were allowed the industry would come up with appropriate mirrors that don't vibrate. That is a problem that is relatively easily solved.

I can't see what a restriction on the minimum weight of the towcar to be able to tow a 2.5m wide caravan has to do with safety. Linking weight with width is just plain idiosyncratic and cannot be explained in rational terms. The sooner this absurd anomaly is disposed of the better. If 2.5m is OK for some vehicles there is no reason why it can't be OK for all. Conversely, if 2.5m is too wide for caravans, then the 2.55m allowed for trucks is too wide, too.

Of course, the pan-European licence will prevent you from having another licence because all licensing authorities will be able to exchange data and establish whether one has been issued to the same person in another country.