Towing Widths

[cris_408518]

Lutz, in case you have not noticed there are other countries apart from those in the EEC!

They can't even stop people using different names and passports and having more than one set of papers in this country, if you think a pan European Police State will stop it you are joking like those who have peddled us all the EEC B S.

 

[Lutz]

No system is so watertight that, with enough criminal energy, it can't be beaten. Anti-theft measures for caravans are a typical example. But nevertheless it is still worth implementing the best safeguards that you have at your disposal. At least that should cut out a very high percentage of misuse. But anyway, this thread was about caravan widths, not driving licences.

 

[cris_408518]

Lutz. I thought part of the thread was a moan that the UK does not have parity with other parts of Europe. I did see somewhere that Italy does not allow 2.5 metre caravans either, but maybe that is out dated now.

As you say implementing the best safegaurds at your disposal is surly the best thing to do. Surely different driving licences and passports for each country is one of the best forms of security there is. Once you have one Euro licence or passport the criminals only have one type to forge and we here or you in Germany have to trust to others parts of the EEC for your security.

As we are an Island yet the French, Germans and others are quite happy to turn a blind eye to Illegals heading our way surely our own UK papers and using the strip of water between us is implementing the best security as it has done for hundreds of years.

Somebody in their wisdom have decided that for the UK roads 2.5 metre caravans are not suitable for our roads towed behind normal cars.

No one is screaming for reflective jackets, triangles and bulb kits to be standard issue for UK drivers. If we are going to have parity EEC laws, then we should have towing speeds up to 81mph and speed unlimited sections of motorway as in Germany. There will be no need to licence caravans in Europe surely, if we have to take on board some of the Euro rules surely it should be a two way trade and Europe should ease up and take some of ours!

 

[cris_408518]

Lutz. I thought part of the thread was a moan that the UK does not have parity with other parts of Europe. I did see somewhere that Italy does not allow 2.5 metre caravans either, but maybe that is out dated now.

As you say implementing the best safegaurds at your disposal is surly the best thing to do. Surely different driving licences and passports for each country is one of the best forms of security there is. Once you have one Euro licence or passport the criminals only have one type to forge and we here or you in Germany have to trust to others parts of the EEC for your security.

As we are an Island yet the French, Germans and others are quite happy to turn a blind eye to Illegals heading our way surely our own UK papers and using the strip of water between us is implementing the best security as it has done for hundreds of years.

Somebody in their wisdom have decided that for the UK roads 2.5 metre caravans are not suitable for our roads towed behind normal cars.

No one is screaming for reflective jackets, triangles and bulb kits to be standard issue for UK drivers. If we are going to have parity EEC laws, then we should have towing speeds up to 81mph and speed unlimited sections of motorway as in Germany. There will be no need to licence caravans in Europe surely, if we have to take on board some of the Euro rules surely it should be a two way trade and Europe should ease up and take some of ours!

ps. Eurocamp Independent still have advice that in Italy 2.3 metres is the maximum width for caravans and max of 6.5 metres for single axle and 8 metres for twins.

 

[Lutz]

If someone forges a, let us say, a French licence and uses that in the UK, what chance do the authorities in the UK have if there is no exchange of data. The whole idea of a European licence is to make that possible.

I can only describe the decision to allow 2.5m wide caravans only behind vehicles with a GVW of at least 3.5 tonnes to be amateurish and certainly shows no signs of wisdom of whoever dreamed it up. I am sure there can be no data to support the need for such a restriction.

I really don't now how warning triangles, reflective jackets, etc. come into the picture because that has absolutely nothing to do with the EU (other than the design of the reflective jackets is according to European standard, so that one common type is acceptable in all countries where they are required).

Speed limits are and always have been picked to suit local traffic conditions, so there is absolutely no need for common European-wide speed limits.

As far as caravan width is concerned, I see no conditions which are so specific to the UK that make it so important to go it alone. I can legally tour the UK with my foreign-registered car and a 2.5m wide caravan without as problem, so why should I be privileged?

 

[Lutz]

Lutz. I thought part of the thread was a moan that the UK does not have parity with other parts of Europe. I did see somewhere that Italy does not allow 2.5 metre caravans either, but maybe that is out dated now.

As you say implementing the best safegaurds at your disposal is surly the best thing to do. Surely different driving licences and passports for each country is one of the best forms of security there is. Once you have one Euro licence or passport the criminals only have one type to forge and we here or you in Germany have to trust to others parts of the EEC for your security.

As we are an Island yet the French, Germans and others are quite happy to turn a blind eye to Illegals heading our way surely our own UK papers and using the strip of water between us is implementing the best security as it has done for hundreds of years.

Somebody in their wisdom have decided that for the UK roads 2.5 metre caravans are not suitable for our roads towed behind normal cars.

No one is screaming for reflective jackets, triangles and bulb kits to be standard issue for UK drivers. If we are going to have parity EEC laws, then we should have towing speeds up to 81mph and speed unlimited sections of motorway as in Germany. There will be no need to licence caravans in Europe surely, if we have to take on board some of the Euro rules surely it should be a two way trade and Europe should ease up and take some of ours!

The ECMT (European Conference of Ministers of Transport) website quotes 2.55m maximum permissible for Italy. I feel inclined to believe that more than Eurocamp Independent.

 

[cris_408518]

Data exchange does not mean we all have to have the same Driving Licence does it. Passports are not the same at present but other countries can read data from them.

How can the laws here be amatuerish when you say speed limits are picked to suit local conditions, touring van width rules suit our roads and many local conditions in the UK and it seems Italy to unless you know different.

Is common sense not the basis for many laws or do we have to have some European data to tell us what is good for us in the UK when it has been fine for years.

A truck with its mirrors higher than most cars is one thing, growing numbers of 2.5 metre caravans with mirrors poking out towards other cars is just a nonsense on many UK roads. We kindly let visitors use their own vehicles and that is fine as there are a minimal temporary hinderance.

Change the regulations to 2.5 metres and you can bet your last $ that Bailey, Avondale and Lunar etc will be in a race to have the max width vans on the road. Even if Bailey only did 10% or so that would be around a thousand extra wide caravans a year hitting our roads without the other manufacturers output.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Cris,

I do not understand your objection to wider caravans. There are already wider caravans on the roads, and we have many more HGV the same or wider. We cope with those, although we may complain.

Most car/caravan combinations out perform HGVs in terms of performance, so I cannot see a logical or technical objection to them.

I do concede that we may not need wider caravans, but then do we need cars that can travel more than twice the current national speed limit!

Do you have some prejudice towards those that might choose a wide van? If so why?

It is really a matter of choice, I do not have a wider caravan, but I do not object to others choosing them.

 

[cris_408518]

Due to the regulations we now havea few wider vansthat are not widely available or used.They tend to be towed in this country as working homes for some travellers and road builders using larger vehicles.

Our UK society is not the same as all of Europe and I'm sure that as soon as the regs were opened for all to produce 2.5 metre vans the race would start for many to get one.

My UK caravanning has been minimal in recent years. Caravanners get enough flack about blocking roads and slowing traffic rightly or wrongly.

Freely opening up the market to the wider vans will I believe not only give caravanners a worse name but will lead to touring vans becoming a menace in narrow UK villages and towns.

Quite frankly I think many caravanners are still poor drivers using unsuitably set up outfits that are already badly loaded.

Making wider outfits more freely available is liekly to lead to caravans being banned from narrow streets like trucks and lead to more accidents due to the extra width being towed by drivers that are generally part time users.

We will all pay more then for insurance.

I have a wide trailer that gets used by others who tow caravans at times and it's surprising how people who are used to towing change their driving when towing something that they seem to think it is wider than their present caravans. As a flat bed they have no trouble seeing past it unlike they would with 2.5 metres of caravan that is even longer. It is also noticeable how people hang back rather than overtake it as well. For some reason it appears to be wider that it is,when we first had it my wife referred to it as the huge trailer and was taking avoidance action that she needn't take. On many roads it's like you have formed a mobile chicane. Starting to put hundreds and then thousands more wider vans on UK roads should be avoided.

We have a constant fight over our blocked roads, do you really want wider vans that may end up causing more resentment and regulations.

 

[Lutz]

Cris, if you had read my comment about regulations in Italy you will have seen that there is cause to doubt your statement regarding their restriction to 2.3m (I can't quote their law but I am confident that my source is reliable).

Although passports are specific to each country, the data and layout of the page with machine readable information is common by international agreement. The same would be necessary for driving licences, especially as there are plans in some countries to use driving licences as ID cards, thus saving additional effort to issue ID cards as well.

If the UK really considered 2.3m to be a necessary and sensible limit because of specific local conditions, then this should apply to ALL vehicles. I'd have no problems with that. But anything else (the law as it stands) is just plain irrational. However, when driving in the UK, I see little evidence that the conditions are so specific that an extra 4" either side on a handful of caravans compared to the number of wider trucks already there would clog up the whole traffic.

 

[cris_408518]

We very often use a road in Oxfordshire that is on a road used to access a nearby caravan and camping park. It already has trouble with present day caravans.

If you are lucky as I've seen with a few caravans they just avoid or get mininal damage when they meet lorries on the road.

2.5 metres wide and they would have major probelms as will hundreds if not Thousands of country roads and villages in the UK if the numbers of wide wand were to grow much

Where we live and lived before our normal width van only just left room for trucks to squeese past at do other roads in both areas.

Re Italy. I don't know why some current web sites still advise that 2.3 is maximum width for Italy.

 

[Lutz]

If anything, your experience would give reason to restrict overall width either across the board throughout the country or locally where special conditions prevail but not to single out caravans for tougher treatment.

If the width were to be restricted to 2.3m in general, that would have an enourmous impact to the economy because it would prevent standard 20' and 40' containers (which are 8' wide) from being moved by road transport and require removal and transfer of all their contents at the ports.

 

[CarolineSimon]

Are you always such a pessimist Chris?

Even if the UK law was changed to allow normal cars to tow 2.5m wide vans, I very much doubt that too many people would buy them due to the extra care needed & hassle of towing them.

They are a case of personal choice just the same as fixed beds,end bathrooms, full or porch awnings - the list goes on.

As I stated in the original thread these wider vans would by their very size probably be restricted as to what roads they could use and which CL's they would fit on.

It's just common sense isn't it like 99.9% of double decker bus drivers' don't ignore height signs on bridges as they want to keep the top deck on their bus and their job and licence.

If vanners in 2.5 wide vans try to use routes that they are prohibited from then licence endorsments and higher insurances due to claims will surely stop them.

I am law abiding with my car & van licence and insurance and do not agree with testing the theory that I would probably get away with one of these vans at the moment, I feel the risk is too great but I would like the freedom of choice when buying a suitable van for my family's lifestyle just as you do with yours.

Equally with todays budget, do you really think the hike in car tax for certain cars will make the slightest bit of difference to the majority of owners with high polluting cars? They don't have the money worries of others generally and so will just pay whatever the cost both in money and to the environment.

It the right of every person in this democracy to have freedom of choice.

I simply stated that my choice would be a larger caravan if I legally could (and to vote out the Labour government.)

Your choice is obviously a smaller van to suit your needs.

All Caravanners are not as irresponsible as you would like to portray and I think it is very unfair of you to say so.

Caroline

 

[cris_408518]

I don't think our last 7.5 metre van was small but see that the extra width would be more of a hindrance on many UK roads if that van was 2.5 metres wide. The next van will be around the same length to.

We tow caravans and also trailers for my busisness, I've never suggested that all caravanners are irresponsible but there are far to many that are.

I have no issues with long vans but pushing touring van widths wider is not ideal on UK roads.

I feel it very unfair that we should be lumped in with some euro rules, fine for French and German roads but not fine for Downderry or the Yorkshire Dales etc.

What ever new forum memebers think is tough they have to be realistic and aware, if they are new to caravanning they will find some very very nice friendly caravanners and campers and some other noisy ignorant bas@@@@'s who can spout tales of their caravanning prowess and five miles down the road are driving like idiots with a badly loads vans and car lurching along.

ps. I'm one of the very very quiet caravanners

 

[LizCornwall]

Not only wider vans on the road, how about pitches on site, at some stage pitches would have to be made larger to accommodate the larger vans, time the awning goes up, plus a pod, then the car, you could

Find you might be encroaching on the next pitch, especially in high season. You still have to have the 3 metre gap. Liz.

 

[Hamer_5041128]

Caroline and Simon,

Cris is not a Victor Meldrew! He talks sense in the interests of safety. There are many caravaeers at present towing 2.3 metre wide caravans, even with 4x4's, who do not use extension mirrors and cannot therefore see fully both sides of their caravan when towing. This is a very dangerous practice. The same people towing 2.5 metre caravans would be an even bigger danger not only to other drivers but to themselves.If you cannot see fully both sides of your caravan then you cannot see say a child on a push bike close to the rear of your caravan.

Hamer

 

[Lutz]

I fail to see how a 2.5m caravan is any more dangerous than a 2.5m truck. If people don't use extension mirrors, they won't use them however wide.

Besides, it's still ridiculous to require a towcar of a minimum weight to tow a trailer of a certain width. That just doesn't make sense in any language. It's plain discrimination against caravanners.

If certain roads are unsuitable for wider vehicles (and that would apply to trucks, too) then local authorities can and do signpost them.

 

[mcghee]

Cris, you say that wide 'vans will cause a niusance but you have no problem with long 'vans. The length of a 'van causes far more problems than the width. If you've towed a 7.5 metre 'van you should know as I do that if you want to turn left, for example, you have to wait until your right is clear, as you have some 12ft of tail swing to allow for. Width doesn't matter .

 

[Hamer_5041128]

Lutz,

A 2.5 metre truck has mirrors fitted as standard to enable the driver to see safely down both sides of the truck. A 2.5 metre caravan would from present exoerience be towed by drivers who would have large blind spots at the rear of their caravans. As you have stated if people do not use extension mirrors for 2.3 metre caravans they are not going to use them for 2.5 metre caravans. Therefore how can you justify your statement that 2.5 metre caravans are no more dangerous than 2.5 metre trucks.

Hamer

 

[cris_408518]

"Discrimination" Lutz - Very funny.

Germany a country with some of Europes best roads and some with unlimited speed limits but speed limit for caravans I think is only 50 MPH / 80KPH, I also seem too remember your posts re tyres and shock absorbers on caravans. It seems we have to respect the German ideas but it is not a two way trade.

Of course maybe the German speed limits is due to the problems wcaused by 2.5 metre wide caravans so they just limit the speed for all caravanners ;-)

mcghee. If you were to drive a 2.5 metre wide caravan to Cornwall its width would be an issue all the way and on some parts of the journey the extra width would be a danger to you and other road users. Any issues re a long van turning are only for a minute part of a journey.

 

[Lutz]

The 80km/h speed limit in Germany applies to ALL vehicles towing a trailer, so one cannot speak of discrimination. The 100km/h concession if shock absorbers, stabiliser, etc. are fitted, is actually preferential treatment for caravanners (and other trailers which comply).

 

[cris_408518]

Lutz

It comes across as that you want the UK to change and abide by some euro rules re caravan width and ignore that many UK roads and rural areas are not suitable for these wider vans that are for a leisure persuit. But then your own local ideas in Germany re speed and suspensions are fine.

You've posted comment that our rules re width are "Discriminating" and an "Absurd anomoly" yet we are happy to let temporary visitors use our roads yet we in turn are expected to obey slow speeds on some of the best and fastest roads in Europe or fit shock absorbers that the manufacturers feel are not needed.

We've even had posts here giving warning re being fined in Holland if we do not hook our break away cables their way.

With these differences why the problem with the UK roads having a slightly narrower van.

An articulated lorry or fast moving coach passing wider caravans could cause even more accidents on our roads as the vans weave with a lightish weight tow car.

UK traffic density should not be ignored just to suit the EU.

 

[Lutz]

You are missing the point. If 2.5m is too wide, then this should apply to commercial vehicles, too. Roads don't suddenly become wider when a truck passes down them instead of a caravan.

As for manufacturers feeling that shock absorbers are not needed, that is purely a cost cutting exercise. It is my opinion that the 85% weight ratio recommendation could be lifted to 100% if all caravans were fitted with shock absorbers. That would enable smaller, lighter cars to be used for towing, thereby contributing to energy saving and a reduction in overall vehicle emissions.

Regarding the breakaway cables issue in the Netherlands, that is just as daft and indiscriminate but why shouldn't the powers that be in the Netherlands not make mistakes just like in the UK?

 

[cris_408518]

Many many camp sites around the UK are not accessible by trucks Lutz! Even many UK commercial sites are not easy to get to with our current width caravans.

Also trucks are not "touring" around rural areas on a jolly and they are driven by trained drivers.

Letting loose touring leisure articualted Lorry sized outfits i for anyone to drive and tow on UK roads is madness.

Why not 2.5 metre wide cars then, if people see a Hummer on our roads they are jumping up and down in anger at its width yet you would expect ever growing numbers of wide leisure caravans to be fine.

 

[Lutz]

If the sites aren't accessible by wider vehicles (including trucks) then all the owners need to do is to make guests aware of that in the details of their site, just like they already do with length and/or twin axles. I don't see the problem. It would also be useful for foreign visitors with wider caravans to know in advance.