Regardless of all the ranting on here of rights and wrongs, I have noticed that Thelma65 the op has not posted again, I think that all the help and advice given on the forums that has served many of us was lost in this post.
Rick1 said:
Rick,
Is it responsible or safe to offer advice to a novice that suggests they are able to undertake a job for which they clerly do not have the knowledge equipement or skill?
The only sound advice was given, which was to refer the job to a professional.
I agree with what you are saying, also alot of people didnt like the way it was said. My point was that the op has not been back again.
which is a shame because even though I have been caravaning since 1979 I always find some helpful advice on these sites, caravans change the odd bit of equipment changes, years gone by you would have gone down the local caravan shop and bought a brass bush to alter the size of the pipe, but now we know better and a lot of it has come through helpful advice on this type of forum.
which is a shame because even though I have been caravaning since 1979 I always find some helpful advice on these sites, caravans change the odd bit of equipment changes, years gone by you would have gone down the local caravan shop and bought a brass bush to alter the size of the pipe, but now we know better and a lot of it has come through helpful advice on this type of forum.
Hello again Rick,
The absence of of any further posting from the OP could be for any number of reasons. It could be very wrong to jump to the conclusion the OP has been frightened off.
I sincerely hope not. only time will tell. Perhaps Thelma might like to set our minds at rest.
I did find the structure of Damians post to be overly assertive. I can certainly see how it may have offended some readers.
The absence of of any further posting from the OP could be for any number of reasons. It could be very wrong to jump to the conclusion the OP has been frightened off.
I sincerely hope not. only time will tell. Perhaps Thelma might like to set our minds at rest.
I did find the structure of Damians post to be overly assertive. I can certainly see how it may have offended some readers.
hi all,
when it comes down to it the facts are there the OP obviously had no idea what the hell he was doing and definetly needed a reality check, Damian as a qualified service engineer gave him one, yes the tone was a bit strong and speaking from personal experience if anyone had spoken to me like that face to face they would probably have been sat on the floor.
but that aside just because Damian is a moderator does not mean he is not allowed to have an oppinion, if members dont agree with a post then complain about the post not the person making the post, the fact that Damian is a moderator is irrevent,
On the subject of LPG yes it is dangerious stuff but as a subject matter well within the cababilities of a COMPITANT diy'er spare parts and fitting are available everywhere. anyone who uses propane has to mess with it just to change the cylinder and never thinks about using a anti static straps, not to mention just about every gas BBQ or the self fit car gas conversions.
if you know what you are doing Lpg is no mystery and you don't need to be a quailfied gas engineer to do a proper job it is one of the things that elf and safety has gone mad with remember checking for leaks with a paintbrush and washing up liquid,
in the end it's down to the individual if you are compitant go ahead but if you are like the OP get someone to do it for you that knows what they are doing.
when it comes down to it the facts are there the OP obviously had no idea what the hell he was doing and definetly needed a reality check, Damian as a qualified service engineer gave him one, yes the tone was a bit strong and speaking from personal experience if anyone had spoken to me like that face to face they would probably have been sat on the floor.
but that aside just because Damian is a moderator does not mean he is not allowed to have an oppinion, if members dont agree with a post then complain about the post not the person making the post, the fact that Damian is a moderator is irrevent,
On the subject of LPG yes it is dangerious stuff but as a subject matter well within the cababilities of a COMPITANT diy'er spare parts and fitting are available everywhere. anyone who uses propane has to mess with it just to change the cylinder and never thinks about using a anti static straps, not to mention just about every gas BBQ or the self fit car gas conversions.
if you know what you are doing Lpg is no mystery and you don't need to be a quailfied gas engineer to do a proper job it is one of the things that elf and safety has gone mad with remember checking for leaks with a paintbrush and washing up liquid,
in the end it's down to the individual if you are compitant go ahead but if you are like the OP get someone to do it for you that knows what they are doing.
hi,
in essence Gary what you say may be correct but the whole point is a correct fitting "is a correct fitting" the wrong regulator is the wrong one is it simple to change it for a the proper one, doing a bodge to make it fit is no answer
in essence Gary what you say may be correct but the whole point is a correct fitting "is a correct fitting" the wrong regulator is the wrong one is it simple to change it for a the proper one, doing a bodge to make it fit is no answer
1)will the 10mm treaded bolt still tighten ok on the 8mm copper pipe or do i need to buy some extra bits to make this work?styl
2) i was thinking buying 10mm copper having a couple of inches of this then get a reducer so i can fit the 8mm copper tube to the gas fittings?
3) im sure there must be a better/easier way - but im no expert on the gas fittings/ parts so any help on solving this puzzle would be appreciated
......................................................
The problem I've had with all this is the 3 things the OP asked, (above), all of which suggested to me he was actually fairly clued up.
Basically as I see it, he had already worked out that 1 was a likely none starter or he would not have thought of 2, having got that far he thought perhaps something is made, 3, but had no idea if it was.... 'I'm no expert ON FITTINGS... who is, I might add? my guess is there isn't.
So basically he was only asking if there was, or, that option 2 was the only way to get out the hole he'd dug for himself buying the correct regulator but with the wrong pipe size connection?.
To which could then be added the usual warning that this should only be done by a competent person with the correct pressure testing equipment to test the pipework to 150Mb, NOT only at working pressure
Just my thoughts on the matter anyway
2) i was thinking buying 10mm copper having a couple of inches of this then get a reducer so i can fit the 8mm copper tube to the gas fittings?
3) im sure there must be a better/easier way - but im no expert on the gas fittings/ parts so any help on solving this puzzle would be appreciated
......................................................
The problem I've had with all this is the 3 things the OP asked, (above), all of which suggested to me he was actually fairly clued up.
Basically as I see it, he had already worked out that 1 was a likely none starter or he would not have thought of 2, having got that far he thought perhaps something is made, 3, but had no idea if it was.... 'I'm no expert ON FITTINGS... who is, I might add? my guess is there isn't.
So basically he was only asking if there was, or, that option 2 was the only way to get out the hole he'd dug for himself buying the correct regulator but with the wrong pipe size connection?.
To which could then be added the usual warning that this should only be done by a competent person with the correct pressure testing equipment to test the pipework to 150Mb, NOT only at working pressure
Just my thoughts on the matter anyway
No Colin, I am not getting into that again, my point is, to read the question and then answer it, as it is, we've already had three pages of irrelevence.
Edit
Sorry Colin, I re-read my post an edited it to clarify, it is the correct reg, just the wrong pipe connection size
Edit
Sorry Colin, I re-read my post an edited it to clarify, it is the correct reg, just the wrong pipe connection size
hi Gary. sorry mate misunderstood mines 8mm all the way through so it seemed needing a 10mm fitting it was the wrong one.
colin-yorkshire said:
I'm sorry Colin, but I feel your post gives the wrong impression about who should or could work on LPG systems.
It boils down to who is competent, which then begs the question of how do you prove competency.
Competency is the ability to consistently demonstrate knowledge and skills about a subject to the satisfaction of a regulator.
In gas fitting, there is a lot more to getting the GasSafe ticket than just knowing how to make a joint. There are the safe working practices, the duty to test, and the knowledge to know how to specify the correct equipment appliance or installation, and the law - what you can touch and what you can't.
I'd venture that unless the DIY'er had been a gas fitter in the past, they would not be able to satisfactorily meet all those requirements, and thus could not be deemed competent.It is also highly unlikely they would have access to the necessary test equipment to be able to test to the regulations and certify work carried out.
I am strongly of the opinion that the current regulations that exempt individuals from being regulated and working on their own private touring and self propelled caravans is an Anathema. I have and will continue to lobby through my contacts for that exemption to be removed, so that only proven competent persons can work on any gas fuel system.
Compliance with good Health and safety measures is all too often mocked on this forum. It is sad to see so much lip service given to advice based on compliance.
Leave gas fitting to the professionals - your life and others may depend on it.
I think Colin has got it spot on. While the Prof also makes valid points, if you were only to do things you are qualified (as opposed to capable/competent) to do in this life not much would get done.
The 10mm and 8mm fitting is just a nipple on the regualtors, he could have removed the old 8mm one and fitted it to the new regulator removing the 10mm one first.
Refit them using a gas thread sealant
Refit them using a gas thread sealant
Michael E said:
Now there you go, a a perfect example of a little knowledge resulting in the wrong advice. A compression joint using a nipple should not need any sealant, and if you were to use a sealant which one and why?
hi all,
while it is true that in life there are watches and do'ers I am of the later, while the Prof has a point it does come down to competence and I did say so in my post, true there are those out there who are unable to comprehend the tecnique of changing a light bulb but assuming everybody is a numpty is very wide of the mark.
either you can do or can't but that goes for everything, should you do the car brakes if you are not a mechanic or refit a kitchen if your not a builder, or change a plug if your not an electrician, there are those who would say no get a professional in to do everything.
I have just last weekend changed the car and van to 13 pin electrics a job that took 4hrs and would have cost£100 by a mobile fitter am I confident the wiring will pass the next MOT you bet, judging from the birdsnest of wiring that that the last professional towbar installer left not to mention the state of the undervan wiring that bailey did at the factory,
LPG is no different a proper job is just that, done correctly it is safe, are we to suggest only a gas safe proffesional should change a gas bottle or renew a out of date fexible regulator pipe or regulator when changing from propane to butane,of course not but to comply with the Profs thinking we would,
mobile gas wether we like it or not is different from domestic gas and is regulated differently for a reason to bring it all into line under one umbrella is not feasable. are we to assume that the gas engineer that services our domestic gas boiler should also do the van while he is at it, because the bottle might need changing,
no John this is not a flippant remark but a natural progession from regulating everything when that day comes my caravanning days are over, and so will the need for magazines like practical caravan, and Doug Kings make overs like the project Elddis,
not sure if I am allowed to quote from the mag or not so just incase I refer readers to page 109 of the may edition,
in reference to changing the hob and cooker and gas pipes with isolator tap.
none of which would be possible under the Profs new rules. and way of thinking.
it is not me that is being pragmatic or out of line with forum advice it's just common sense if you can't do, call a proffesional if you can then why not.
colin
while it is true that in life there are watches and do'ers I am of the later, while the Prof has a point it does come down to competence and I did say so in my post, true there are those out there who are unable to comprehend the tecnique of changing a light bulb but assuming everybody is a numpty is very wide of the mark.
either you can do or can't but that goes for everything, should you do the car brakes if you are not a mechanic or refit a kitchen if your not a builder, or change a plug if your not an electrician, there are those who would say no get a professional in to do everything.
I have just last weekend changed the car and van to 13 pin electrics a job that took 4hrs and would have cost£100 by a mobile fitter am I confident the wiring will pass the next MOT you bet, judging from the birdsnest of wiring that that the last professional towbar installer left not to mention the state of the undervan wiring that bailey did at the factory,
LPG is no different a proper job is just that, done correctly it is safe, are we to suggest only a gas safe proffesional should change a gas bottle or renew a out of date fexible regulator pipe or regulator when changing from propane to butane,of course not but to comply with the Profs thinking we would,
mobile gas wether we like it or not is different from domestic gas and is regulated differently for a reason to bring it all into line under one umbrella is not feasable. are we to assume that the gas engineer that services our domestic gas boiler should also do the van while he is at it, because the bottle might need changing,
no John this is not a flippant remark but a natural progession from regulating everything when that day comes my caravanning days are over, and so will the need for magazines like practical caravan, and Doug Kings make overs like the project Elddis,
not sure if I am allowed to quote from the mag or not so just incase I refer readers to page 109 of the may edition,
in reference to changing the hob and cooker and gas pipes with isolator tap.
none of which would be possible under the Profs new rules. and way of thinking.
it is not me that is being pragmatic or out of line with forum advice it's just common sense if you can't do, call a proffesional if you can then why not.
colin
Leave gas fitting to the professionals - your life and others may depend on it.
Surely this advise could and probably should apply to almost any aspect of maintenance, IE: Vehicle servicing & repairs, Plumbing, even tree pruning. However, I don't think it will ever become accepted by a large sector of the public.
Steve W
Surely this advise could and probably should apply to almost any aspect of maintenance, IE: Vehicle servicing & repairs, Plumbing, even tree pruning. However, I don't think it will ever become accepted by a large sector of the public.
Steve W
Hello Michael,
I appologise for the not understanding what you were proposing regarding the nipple. However I still pose the question regarding the sealent, which one would you choose and why?
I appologise for the not understanding what you were proposing regarding the nipple. However I still pose the question regarding the sealent, which one would you choose and why?
Well seeing as how you are asking, Loctite 577 or yellow ptfe tape but only on threads, never around an olive.
I would thread lock the joint instead of using ptfe tape as you wouldnt plan to take it apart, Rocol make a couple of products, they really replace the tape.
This point about sealants is the very first question I asked on my LPG course, I was under the impression at the time it was banded and wanted to know why!
Well it was not true and sealants such as Gastite can be used but it's how, it's used to perfect a joint, not to repair a leaking one by using half a tub of the stuff, which is why it's frowned upon and I've seen done far too often... and straight from the factory!
As for olive compression joints, in theory it's not required, but it is perfectly exceptable to use a smear of sealant on the joint as a lubricant to reduce friction and allow the joint to compress smoothly.
Anyway, as far as I know this type regulator has cast in conections so the size it what it is, you cannot swap it and I presume why the op asked the question?.
Please don't get me on the subject of PTFE tape use on the threads of compression joints...why do they do it? so called professionals I'm talking about!!
Well it was not true and sealants such as Gastite can be used but it's how, it's used to perfect a joint, not to repair a leaking one by using half a tub of the stuff, which is why it's frowned upon and I've seen done far too often... and straight from the factory!
As for olive compression joints, in theory it's not required, but it is perfectly exceptable to use a smear of sealant on the joint as a lubricant to reduce friction and allow the joint to compress smoothly.
Anyway, as far as I know this type regulator has cast in conections so the size it what it is, you cannot swap it and I presume why the op asked the question?.
Please don't get me on the subject of PTFE tape use on the threads of compression joints...why do they do it? so called professionals I'm talking about!!
It may appear cast as the unit is sprayed silver after manufacture.
I thought the same until i had a fitter replace mine and he had the wrong size and swapped over the nipple.
I thought the same until i had a fitter replace mine and he had the wrong size and swapped over the nipple.
The reason I asked about the the sealant is that it actually demonstrates the knowledge (or lack of) about LPG. Unlike natural gas LPG is derived from a petroleum base,and as such it will rapidly degrade some types of sealant
A lack of knowledge on this subject is fairly typical of some of the jobs I attended completed by persons who beleived they were competent working with LPG and whoused general plumbing sealants or rubberised compounds that left systems with significant leaks. It reinforces my contention that all gas works should be left to compent professionals.
Colin has mentioned how my position will affect changing gas bottles. That shouldn't need to change though I do belive the systems should include a built in isolating valve and pressure guage so that after changing a bottle the gas tightnes of the bottle/cylinder coupling can be easily assertained.
I think if we need to debate this further we should start a new thread.
A lack of knowledge on this subject is fairly typical of some of the jobs I attended completed by persons who beleived they were competent working with LPG and whoused general plumbing sealants or rubberised compounds that left systems with significant leaks. It reinforces my contention that all gas works should be left to compent professionals.
Colin has mentioned how my position will affect changing gas bottles. That shouldn't need to change though I do belive the systems should include a built in isolating valve and pressure guage so that after changing a bottle the gas tightnes of the bottle/cylinder coupling can be easily assertained.
I think if we need to debate this further we should start a new thread.
Prof John L said:
You are showing your lack of knowledge there, natural gas also has a petroleum base and this will also degrade some types of sealant, most noteably white ptfe. Now whilst I cannot claim to be gas safe registered, I am trained to install gas conversion kits onto petrol mowing machines, but because I have never had any training on caravan systems, does these mean I should not touch the gas system on my caravan?
"The reason I asked about the the sealant is that it actually demonstrates the knowledge (or lack of) about LPG. Unlike natural gas LPG is derived from a petroleum base,and as such it will rapidly degrade some types of sealant "
Sorry but it sounds like YOU have the lack of knowledge as Rocol which i mentioned is suitable for use with LPG.
Sorry but it sounds like YOU have the lack of knowledge as Rocol which i mentioned is suitable for use with LPG.
Thanks for that jem, I now know the Meth, But, Eth, and Prop in the 'anes' are modern made up words while the rest up to Twelve are from the Greek starting with Pent for five and representing the carbon molcules in the atoms of each gas.
The other molcules are Hydrogen and methane has 4, propane 8 and butane 10, so while all are present in crude oil, equally propane and butane among others are present in Methane, (natural gas), as extracted from the ground.
But maybe it's the chemical makeup and the higher carbon/hydrogen molcules of butane/propane that speeds up degragation of sealents and not the gasses origin?
For the chemists, the 'ane' part BTW is as follows...
Alkanes - saturated hydrocarbons
The names of the straight chain saturated hydrocarbons for up to a 12 carbon chain are shown below. The names of the substituents formed by the removal of one hydrogen from the end of the chain is obtained by changing the suffix -ane to -yl.
...??..anyway and as an aside, I now know the origin of names for days of the week and months of the year, I just love Google!
The other molcules are Hydrogen and methane has 4, propane 8 and butane 10, so while all are present in crude oil, equally propane and butane among others are present in Methane, (natural gas), as extracted from the ground.
But maybe it's the chemical makeup and the higher carbon/hydrogen molcules of butane/propane that speeds up degragation of sealents and not the gasses origin?
For the chemists, the 'ane' part BTW is as follows...
Alkanes - saturated hydrocarbons
The names of the straight chain saturated hydrocarbons for up to a 12 carbon chain are shown below. The names of the substituents formed by the removal of one hydrogen from the end of the chain is obtained by changing the suffix -ane to -yl.
...??..anyway and as an aside, I now know the origin of names for days of the week and months of the year, I just love Google!
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