Trying to learn and understand towing weights

[F14nae]

If my log book says

Towable mass braked kg 1300

What can the caravan weigh? And would this weight include the things I put in?

Thanks
Fiona x

 

[Mel]

Hi Fiona. Weights can sound very complicated but don’t panic. What car do you have and when did you pass your test? Also, look up your cars kerb weight, and the plated weights on the plate usually inside the car door. These numbers will help folk guide you. The 1300 kg is the weight that the car can tow at a maximum, but may not be the most helpful starting point for choosing a caravan.
Mel

 

[Thingy]

You are correct, the maximum tow for your car braked is 1300kg. The kerbweight on the model you mentioned earlier is 1540 kg. The Maximum Technically Permissable Laden Mass or MTPLM as you will learn to call it, is advised, especially for a beginner to be no more than 85% of the cars kerbweight. In this case 85% is 1309kg, but my personal advice would be to look for something a little lighter as you are right on the cars limit.

This 85% figure, I must point out, is only advice, it isnt a rule as you may hear it called. It is however, good advice.

It is worth googling MIRO and MTPLM and read up on it. MIRO or mass in running order is something akin to a cars kerbweight for want of a better description. The difference between MIRO and MTPLM is the user payload, the stuff that you load into the caravan.

You also need to pay some attention to what the car can take on the towball. If I remember, the Zafira 1.7 was 60kg, but I may be wrong on that.

There will be others along shortly that will give you a much heavier version of this, which for a newbie can be a little confusing, but it is something that you really do need to learn.

This also may be of some use to you
https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/advice-and-training/training-courses/

 

[ProfJohnL]

If my log book says

Towable mass braked kg 1300

What can the caravan weigh? And would this weight include the things I put in?

Thanks
Fiona x

Hello Fiona,

The Maximum Towed Weight limit for the car represents the heaveiest load a trailers wheels can be, So yes it does include the trailer and whats inside it. However I must warn you that some car manufacturers inflate the towed weight limit figure and it can only be achieved by part loading the car. The figure you need is the difference between the Gross Train Weight and the Gross Vehicle Weight figures which are stamped on the cars weight plate.

Car manufacturers derive that figure using an ideal trailer, and unfortunately caravand are not ideal, because of ther physical size and weight. A big caravan will respod like the sail on a boat , and depending on the wind speed and direction, and the blast of wind you get from other vehicles as they pass, the wind pressure on the caravan can start to affect the tow vehicle.

In recognition of this, the UK caravan industry has issued guilenes for caravaners to use when choosing cars and caravans. At no time should the towed weight of the trailer excede the cars stated towed weight limit, but novice caravanners should limit the MTPLM of the caravan to be no greater than 85% of the tow vehicles kerbweight. And Experienced caravanners should not have an MTPLM in excess of 100% of kerbweight. These guidences are only advisory but they do represent good sense.

As you havent included details of the car you intend to use to tow I can't offer any more specific advice.

 

[otherclive]

You are correct, the maximum tow for your car braked is 1300kg. The kerbweight on the model you mentioned earlier is 1540 kg. The Maximum Technically Permissable Laden Mass or MTPLM as you will learn to call it, is advised, especially for a beginner to be no more than 85% of the cars kerbweight. In this case 85% is 1309kg, but my personal advice would be to look for something a little lighter as you are right on the cars limit.

This 85% figure, I must point out, is only advice, it isnt a rule as you may hear it called. It is however, good advice.

It is worth googling MIRO and MTPLM and read up on it. MIRO or mass in running order is something akin to a cars kerbweight for want of a better description. The difference between MIRO and MTPLM is the user payload, the stuff that you load into the caravan.

You also need to pay some attention to what the car can take on the towball. If I remember, the Zafira 1.7 was 60kg, but I may be wrong on that.

There will be others along shortly that will give you a much heavier version of this, which for a newbie can be a little confusing, but it is something that you really do need to learn.

This also may be of some use to you
https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/advice-and-training/training-courses/

You will also find lots of technical data sheets on the Caravan and Motorhome Club website. Covering lots of topics relevant to towing and using a touring caravan.

 

[Raywood]

If the manufacturer states 1300 kg, then anything beyond that would be illegal, and if that excess weight caused or contributed to an accident it could affect your insurance cover.
You do also have to look at the cars weight as well, as too heavy a trailer can cause instability which is why 85% of the cars kerb weight is regarded as the safe limit for those new to towing which I assume you are. It is not the law however and a modest increase should not cause problems in most cases.
Another point is that if you tow at the cars limit you might find performance is poor, as the car could struggle, we do not know what the car is so I cannot say this will be a problem.

 

[F14nae]

Thank you everyone

It seems quite overwhelming to figure it out, I’ll sit down next week and try figure it out Until it clicks. X

 

[F14nae]

You also need to pay some attention to what the car can take on the towball. If I remember, the Zafira 1.7 was 60kg, but I may be wrong on that.

Where would I find the towball weight? And what actually does this mean sorry it’s all brand new :silly:

 

[otherclive]

You also need to pay some attention to what the car can take on the towball. If I remember, the Zafira 1.7 was 60kg, but I may be wrong on that.

Where would I find the towball weight? And what actually does this mean sorry it’s all brand new :silly:

It will be in the cars owners manual in the section on towing.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The refernce to tow ball weight is not entirely self explanitary.

For a varaiety of reasons when you tow a trailer the trialer coupling should exert a downward force onto the cars tow ball. This is the" nose load" or 'S' Value and there are maximum limits for it set by both the car and the caravan manufacturers.

The nose load is created when more of the weight of the trailer sits infront of the trailers axle. Sometimes a trailer has too much nose load, in which case you need to redress the balance by placing some items behind the axle.

Setting a suitable nose load is important as it has a significant effect on outfit stability. There are suggestions on good caravan loading practice in the advice pages of this web site

https://www.practicalcaravan.com/advice
And also both the caravaning clubs had advice sheets available.

 

[Thingy]

The nose load is created when more of the weight of the trailer sits infront of the trailers axle. Sometimes a trailer has too much nose load, in which case you need to redress the balance by placing some items behind the axle.

Just to add to profs statement and supply some more advice.
In simple terms, when you are hitched to your car, the weight pressing down onto the towball is the noseweight, which is the figure in question here. Your car will have a figure defined in the manual. Saloon cars are normally around 75kg, some less, some more. Some 4x4s have a much larger allowance. If you have too little or too much noseweight, it can make for an unsettled ride at the very least. The holy grail is to have the noseweight as close to the cars limit as possible.

Now, one of the most important things you need to learn is how to load a caravan properly, and more importantly safely. As Prof says, you can reduce the noseweight by placing items to the rear of the axles location, but, and it is a big but, learn how to do this properly. Too much weight too far back can cause a yoyo effect, side to side and bounce up and down, which will be felt quite drastically in the tow car. Never, ever place heavy weights high up, and we are always careful of hard items high up in cupboards. The number of times tins and bottles have fallen out of cupboards in transit is legion, and they can and do cause damage.

I know this all sounds very complicated, but it really isnt. Get a noseweight guage, they cost very little, and practice loading on level ground. We find a stacker box of tins to be a good counter weight. We start with this on the axle, and gradually move it back until it has the desired effect. Dont just plonk it right at the back as a seesaw. I like to keep the towcar heavy, and the caravan light, but I am fortunate enough to have massive leeway. With the Zafira, you just need to be a bit more creative.

It does sound daunting, but the two subjects that you have been involved in, weights and loading are the most complicated. Once you have cracked this, all you need to do is learn how to open a bottle of ale with your teeth. This is important because it means you dont have to put your burger down. Really, there is nothing to it.

One thing that new caravanners do, nay, we all do is buy every damn gadget we see. And spend the next ten years de-cluttering. Start with your first trip with the bare minimum and then only buy what you struggled without. Travel light and win.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I Cannot not entirely agree with some of Thingy's comment.:-

Your car will have a figure defined in the manual.

The "S" value should be stamped on the tow bar assembly for the vehicle., It will probably be in the hand book also.

Saloon cars are normally around 75kg, some less, some more. Some 4x4s have a much larger allowance

It is wrong to assume the S value for any vehicle . You should always check it for the specific vehicle involved. Different version of the same vehicle can have different S Values - Always check.

If you have too little or too much noseweight, it can make for an unsettled ride at the very least.

This is true

The holy grail is to have the noseweight as close to the cars limit as possible.

Going for the maximum value is not always necessary. You only need enough nose load to keep the outfit under proper control. Going beyond what is necssary causes increased wear of the hitch, and the cars rear suspension. More is not always better.

Get a noseweight guage, they cost very little

You do not need to purchase a noseload gauge. Non of the commercially available units account for the height of the cars tow ball when its loaded. You will get more consistemt results by using a set of bathroom scales raised up to match the height of the cars loaded hitch. The caravan step and few magazines under the scales is usually sufficint.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Prof,
It would help if you kindly explained what S and D values are. I know as do some of the old lags on here but a new joiner , may just get more confused. Thanks

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Prof,
It would help if you kindly explained what S and D values are. I know as do some of the old lags on here but a new joiner , may just get more confused. Thanks

I gave the reference to the S value in my previous comment. I have not referred to the D value in any of my responses.

 

[Lutz]

If the manufacturer states 1300 kg, then anything beyond that would be illegal, and if that excess weight caused or contributed to an accident it could affect your insurance cover.

Exceeding the manufacturer's specified towload limit is not illegal. Only exceeding the plated limits (max. gross vehicle weight, max. gross train weight, max. axle loads) is illegal. The towload limit only has warranty and product liability implications.

 

[Thingy]

Aye aye, my watch has been dismantled again.

The "S" value should be stamped on the tow bar assembly for the vehicle., It will probably be in the hand book also.

Agreed, but why not simply get it from the handbook rather than grot about on the floor. My statement

Your car will have a figure defined in the manual.

is not incorrect.

Prof wrote
It is wrong to assume the S value for any vehicle . You should always check it for the specific vehicle involved. Different version of the same vehicle can have different S Values - Always check.

There was no suggestion that one should assume this figure, I was generally giving a guide, nothing more. Most cars do seem to have a noseweight figure of 75 kg, but you do have to be careful hence me stating that some can be lower. And it is true that most 4x4s have a considerably higher noseweight allowance.

The holy grail is to have the noseweight as close to the cars limit as possible.

Again, nowt wrong with this statement. It isnt rocket science to know that, all other factors being equal, and being within the cars accepted value, a slightly heavier noseweight is better than one that is too light. On a single axle caravan, a noseweight that is very light will often indicate poor loading.

And I suggested

Get a noseweight guage, they cost very little

Again nothing wrong with that idea or your method of stacking the bathroom scales on a pile of magazines to raise it to the towball height. Both methods are acceptable and used, and neither is fully accurate. Bathroom scales are usually fairly inaccurate and unless you are going to have the road surface levelled and calibrated, neither method will be 100% accurate. Whichever method you choose will only be an indication.

The difference here prof between you and I is that I dont get bogged down with finite figures. Caravanning isnt an exact science, and many of your answers can make newbies think it is. I am not trying to be unkind here but in reality, its never going to be laboratory level, but more using all these items as sensible practice.

At the end of the day it all comes down to personal choice as to how you prepare for a journey, and the tug and caravan that you choose. And over time, everybody develops their own "best practice", but you will never ever get everything exact. And the kicker to this is that often, if you do get somewhere close, the actual tow experience will be somewhat less than optimal. It all comes down to learning your own particular outfit and how it feels on the road.

 

[otherclive]

Aye aye, my watch has been dismantled again.

The "S" value should be stamped on the tow bar assembly for the vehicle., It will probably be in the hand book also.

Agreed, but why not simply get it from the handbook rather than grot about on the floor. My statement

Your car will have a figure defined in the manual.

is not incorrect.

Prof wrote
It is wrong to assume the S value for any vehicle . You should always check it for the specific vehicle involved. Different version of the same vehicle can have different S Values - Always check.

There was no suggestion that one should assume this figure, I was generally giving a guide, nothing more. Most cars do seem to have a noseweight figure of 75 kg, but you do have to be careful hence me stating that some can be lower. And it is true that most 4x4s have a considerably higher noseweight allowance.

The holy grail is to have the noseweight as close to the cars limit as possible.

Again, nowt wrong with this statement. It isnt rocket science to know that, all other factors being equal, and being within the cars accepted value, a slightly heavier noseweight is better than one that is too light. On a single axle caravan, a noseweight that is very light will often indicate poor loading.

And I suggested

Get a noseweight guage, they cost very little

Again nothing wrong with that idea or your method of stacking the bathroom scales on a pile of magazines to raise it to the towball height. Both methods are acceptable and used, and neither is fully accurate. Bathroom scales are usually fairly inaccurate and unless you are going to have the road surface levelled and calibrated, neither method will be 100% accurate. whichever method you choose will only be an indication.

The difference here prof between you and I is that I dont get bogged down with finite figures. Caravanning isnt an exact science, and many of your answers can make newbies think it is. I am not trying to be unkind here but in reality, its never going to be laboratory level, but more using all these items as sensible practice.

At the end of the day it all comes down to personal choice as to how you prepare for a journey, and the tug and caravan that you choose. And over time, everybody develops their own "best practice", but you will never ever get everything exact. And the kicker to this is that often, if you do get somewhere close, the actual tow experience will be somewhat less than optimal. It all comes down to learning your own particular outfit and how it feels on the road.

I did set up my caravan noseweight using scales which are accurate with airline check in and the local GP surgery. But I then rechecked it with a noseweight gauge (Milenco) and there was around 5kg difference, but after that I use the gauge has as you say it is much easier. So my scales calibrated the gauge.

 

[Raywood]

If the manufacturer states 1300 kg, then anything beyond that would be illegal, and if that excess weight caused or contributed to an accident it could affect your insurance cover.

Exceeding the manufacturer's specified towload limit is not illegal. Only exceeding the plated limits (max. gross vehicle weight, max. gross train weight, max. axle loads) is illegal. The towload limit only has warranty and product liability implications.

Lutz, I have said something similar before but been shot down. The towing limit is what the manufacturer states the car can restart five times on a 12% hill and seems to have nothing to do with safe towing, other than if you exceed it you might get stuck on a hill. I have pointed out on previous threads that a prosecution based on this would be difficult as it does not show that the outfit is unsafe.
I have been told in no uncertain terms though that exceeding it is illegal and if stopped at a checkpoint you would not be allowed to proceed unless the situation is corrected and could be prosecuted..

 

[Thingy]

The towing limit is what the manufacturer states the car can restart five times on a 12% hill and seems to have nothing to do with safe towing,

I wholeheartedly agree with this. For instance my car has a maximum towing limit of 3500kg, which as we all know is a lot. My caravan has a MTPLM of 1735kg and believe me the car knows when its on the back. Accepting that a car trailer behaves totally different from a caravan, as does a horsebox etc, I feel it would be sheer lunacy to tow 3500kg especially at motorway speeds. Yes, across a field at very low speeds, but nothing more.

 

[otherclive]

The towing limit is what the manufacturer states the car can restart five times on a 12% hill and seems to have nothing to do with safe towing,

I wholeheartedly agree with this. For instance my car has a maximum towing limit of 3500kg, which as we all know is a lot. My caravan has a MTPLM of 1735kg and believe me the car knows when its on the back. Accepting that a car trailer behaves totally different from a caravan, as does a horsebox etc, I feel it would be sheer lunacy to tow 3500kg especially at motorway speeds. Yes, across a field at very low speeds, but nothing more.

Agreed. I towed a trailer full of straw bales with my generation 1 Sorento and it was on a farm road. But the car was in low range locked and worked okay. But there’s no way I would have taken it on a public road.

 

[Lutz]

Lutz, I have said something similar before but been shot down. The towing limit is what the manufacturer states the car can restart five times on a 12% hill and seems to have nothing to do with safe towing, other than if you exceed it you might get stuck on a hill. I have pointed out on previous threads that a prosecution based on this would be difficult as it does not show that the outfit is unsafe.
I have been told in no uncertain terms though that exceeding it is illegal and if stopped at a checkpoint you would not be allowed to proceed unless the situation is corrected and could be prosecuted..

Perhaps those that shot you down would be so kind as to reference the source of their information as I can find nothing to that effect.

 

[Hutch]

Lutz, I have said something similar before but been shot down. The towing limit is what the manufacturer states the car can restart five times on a 12% hill and seems to have nothing to do with safe towing, other than if you exceed it you might get stuck on a hill. I have pointed out on previous threads that a prosecution based on this would be difficult as it does not show that the outfit is unsafe.
I have been told in no uncertain terms though that exceeding it is illegal and if stopped at a checkpoint you would not be allowed to proceed unless the situation is corrected and could be prosecuted..

Perhaps those that shot you down would be so kind as to reference the source of their information as I can find nothing to that effect.

I am with Raywood, I would not like to tow a trailer at the max load all the time, it is just too heavy.

 

[Lutz]

I am with Raywood, I would not like to tow a trailer at the max load all the time, it is just too heavy.

Because I use my car a lot more solo than towing I see no reason to make concessions for towing over what is actually required, so in almost 30 years of caravanning I have always towed on the limit and I can't say that I've ever encountered problems, not even when crossing the Alps on numerous occasions.

 

[SamandRose]

I'm with Raywood and Hutch on this one. Just because something is legal doesn't automatically mean it's sensible.

That would be like saying that because derestricted national single carriageway roads in the UK have a speed limit of 60mph, it's always safe to drive at that speed on every single one of those roads. For sure, it may well be. But if the road is narrow, it's night time and raining, it could also be suicidal.

The brochure for my VW specifically says 'trailer load limit on a 12% incline' (the figure is 2000kg if anyone could care less). I therefore agree entirely with Thingy that this has no apparent relevance to safety or stability on the road. I have no doubt that the car could physically move a trailer that weighed this, and also that the brakes could physically stop it. I would even be prepared to tow an agricultural trailer of that weight for a few miles, at low speeds, on rural roads. But a caravan, which has a higher centre of gravity, at motorway speeds for distances of 100 miles+? No thank you.

My understanding of the legality is the same as Lutz's in that it is the 'maximum gross train weight' (i.e. gross weight of car and trailer combined) that cannot legally be exceeded, rather than the trailer weight. Therefore, you could conceivably tow more than the maximum towing weight provided that the weight inside the car was reduced by the same amount. Bear in mind though that (a) this would be increasing the weight of the trailer relative to that of the car still further, which sounds like foolishness to me, and (b) with most modern caravans only having payloads of 150kg or so, the opportunities for flexibility of this kind are minimal.