Tyre pressure sensors

[steve2019]

I try to tell my customers that new tyres should ideally go on the back, My argument is that since you have less control over where the rear wheesl are going you need them to have as much grip as possible, If you lost traction on the front wheels it is much easier to regain control through the brakes or steering but the majority of my customers always insist the new ones are put on the front..I can't be bothered to argue with them thesedays.

and just to clarify..if your tyre pressure warning light is on..it is definitely an MOT failure regardless of the condition of your tyres.

 

[Hutch]

So are you trying to say that a tyre with, 6mm of tread has more grip than a 4mm tyre.and should be placed on the rear wheels. ?.
With front wheel drive I will still still prefer more tread on the front , firstly to displace water on wet roads.

I think it depend on front or rear wheel drive, and also driving styles.

 

[otherclive]

So are you trying to say that a tyre with, 6mm of tread has more grip than a 4mm tyre.and should be placed on the rear wheels. ?.
With front wheel drive I will still still prefer more tread on the front , firstly to displace water on wet roads.

I think it depend on front or rear wheel drive, and also driving styles.

Your view has been shown to be incorrect via several bodies and via track testing. What you seem to have ignored is weight transfer during braking or the extra traction gained by the front driven tyres compared to free wheeling rear tyres. Driving styles are fine but there will undoubtedly be a time(s) when one is faced with an unexpected situation and maintaining best ability to control the car particularly a rear end brakeaway is down to the driver and the vehicles dynamics. For the same reasons winter tyres aren’t fitted just on the front where fir most purposes the cars traction will be okay. Until the unexpected occurs.

 

[steve2019]

of course 6mm wins over 4mm but the issue is if you have a pair of 6mm and a pair of 4mm you need to look at which axle benefits from the extra grip in a given situation.
If your rear end loses traction round a bend for example your only hope is that you have enough tread on the tyre to grip back to the road,
If you lose traction on the front wheels then you have at least half a chance or regaining control by skillful use of the steering and brakes.
There are arguments for better tyres on the front, but in my opinion (I fit tyres every day and have done my share of track time too) I don't think they are as strong as having better tyres at the rear.
Having said that...if in doubt..good tyres all round wins all

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Steve,
I thanked you for your post above, because so far I think it is the clearest explanation of the reasoning for fitting the best tyres to the rear axle I have seen.

 

[Icaru5]

Although I’m fortunate enough to be able to replace my tyres well before they are anywhere near the legal limit, at no expense to myself and do so purely for safety, I’m with OC on this one.

In a front wheel drive car, If I was only replacing 2 tyres, then providiing the rears have more than enough tread remaining (as in the 4mm that is being suggested), I would always put the new tyres on the front. The most critical situations, as Clive mentions are traction during acceleration and braking, such as pulling out of junctions, even more so on a FWD without a LSD, bacause as soon as the torque applied to the inside front wheel overecomes the friction between the tyre and the road surface, you are in fact, driving out of the junction with power applied to only one wheel, often onto a busy wet, slippery or muddy main road, sometimes dragging a 1400KG caravan behind. This is as crucial when braking, especially considering that the vast majority of FWD cars have front brake bias, in addition to weight distribution. None of these important factors are even mentioned in the linked article.

Of course, if the rear tyres are approaching the minimum depth, then I will replace those too, but when I consider that in my 28 years of driving, even with (ahem) practically bald rear tyres in my much younger days, I have never, ever had a front wheel drive car unexpectedly oversteer on me. Of course, spirited driving involving deliberately provoked lift-off oversteer in a suitably balanced car is different, but that’s another story !

I do agree with some of the points mentioned in the linked article by budget tyre brand Kumho, particularly that for the average driver, correction of unexpected oversteer requires much more skill than the correction of understeer. However, due to the setup and dynamics of a FWD car, as already mentioned, the probability of this occurring in normal driving situations, even with tyres close to the limit is so low that it practically negates the reasons given, whilst the criticality of the traction of the front wheels is of paramount importance. However, unfortunately, it’s insufficiently reasearched and misleading articles like this which influence the decisions of those unable to think for themselves.

Perhaps Kumho should stick to making cheap budget tyres and let their thrifty customers decide where to put them ...

 

[Raywood]

Not sure I would agree that the possibility of the rear tyres losing grip is practically nil. It did happen to me once, but that was with virtually new tyres on a Cavalier. It was on a long bend that I have taken many times both before and after at the same sort of speed so I can only assume there was a patch of oil or something there.
The car dis a complete circle in the road which was wide enough to do that and no one else was about so I guess I was lucky.
That was the second identical car I did have, but with a different make of tyre, which seemed to have less grip. Personally I would agree that the front tyres are the ones you need to keep at their best but do not let the rears get too low as in most cases there is less weight on them so they can slide if the circumstances are right.

 

[otherclive]

Not sure I would agree that the possibility of the rear tyres losing grip is practically nil. It did happen to me once, but that was with virtually new tyres on a Cavalier. It was on a long bend that I have taken many times both before and after at the same sort of speed so I can only assume there was a patch of oil or something there.
The car dis a complete circle in the road which was wide enough to do that and no one else was about so I guess I was lucky.
That was the second identical car I did have, but with a different make of tyre, which seemed to have less grip. Personally I would agree that the front tyres are the ones you need to keep at their best but do not let the rears get too low as in most cases there is less weight on them so they can slide if the circumstances are right.

My wife's SAAB 9000 CSE was written off when Cavalier coming towards her lost rear grip on that drivers left hand curve. It spiralled around before her SAAB hit the Cavalier mid ships. Fortunately neither driver was hurt other than some belt bruising and whiplash. Both cars were total write offs.

 

[otherclive]

Although I’m fortunate enough to be able to replace my tyres well before they are anywhere near the legal limit, at no expense to myself and do so purely for safety, I’m with OC on this one.

In a front wheel drive car, If I was only replacing 2 tyres, then providiing the rears have more than enough tread remaining (as in the 4mm that is being suggested), I would always put the new tyres on the front. The most critical situations, as Clive mentions are traction during acceleration and braking, such as pulling out of junctions, even more so on a FWD without a LSD, bacause as soon as the torque applied to the inside front wheel overecomes the friction between the tyre and the road surface, you are in fact, driving out of the junction with power applied to only one wheel, often onto a busy wet, slippery or muddy main road, sometimes dragging a 1400KG caravan behind. This is as crucial when braking, especially considering that the vast majority of FWD cars have front brake bias, in addition to weight distribution. None of these important factors are even mentioned in the linked article.

Of course, if the rear tyres are approaching the minimum depth, then I will replace those too, but when I consider that in my 28 years of driving, even with (ahem) practically bald rear tyres in my much younger days, I have never, ever had a front wheel drive car unexpectedly oversteer on me. Of course, spirited driving involving deliberately provoked lift-off oversteer in a suitably balanced car is different, but that’s another story !

I do agree with some of the points mentioned in the linked article by budget tyre brand Kumho, particularly that for the average driver, correction of unexpected oversteer requires much more skill than the correction of understeer. However, due to the setup and dynamics of a FWD car, as already mentioned, the probability of this occurring in normal driving situations, even with tyres close to the limit is so low that it practically negates the reasons given, whilst the criticality of the traction of the front wheels is of paramount importance. However, unfortunately, it’s insufficiently reasearched and misleading articles like this which influence the decisions of those unable to think for themselves.

Perhaps Kumho should stick to making cheap budget tyres and let their thrifty customers decide where to put them ...

I had Kuhmo tyres as OEM on my Kia Sorento and have used them on several cars without any concerns. I think your view of them as cheap budget tyres is bit outdated. The link below shows the OEMs that fit Kumho as standard, including Mitsubishi, Mercedes and BMW, not renowned as budget cars

https://www.kumho.com.au/why-kumho/original-equipment-manufacturer

 

[Dustydog]

Although I’m fortunate enough to be able to replace my tyres well before they are anywhere near the legal limit, at no expense to myself and do so purely for safety, I’m with OC on this one.

In a front wheel drive car, If I was only replacing 2 tyres, then providiing the rears have more than enough tread remaining (as in the 4mm that is being suggested), I would always put the new tyres on the front. The most critical situations, as Clive mentions are traction during acceleration and braking, such as pulling out of junctions, even more so on a FWD without a LSD, bacause as soon as the torque applied to the inside front wheel overecomes the friction between the tyre and the road surface, you are in fact, driving out of the junction with power applied to only one wheel, often onto a busy wet, slippery or muddy main road, sometimes dragging a 1400KG caravan behind. This is as crucial when braking, especially considering that the vast majority of FWD cars have front brake bias, in addition to weight distribution. None of these important factors are even mentioned in the linked article.

Of course, if the rear tyres are approaching the minimum depth, then I will replace those too, but when I consider that in my 28 years of driving, even with (ahem) practically bald rear tyres in my much younger days, I have never, ever had a front wheel drive car unexpectedly oversteer on me. Of course, spirited driving involving deliberately provoked lift-off oversteer in a suitably balanced car is different, but that’s another story !

I do agree with some of the points mentioned in the linked article by budget tyre brand Kumho, particularly that for the average driver, correction of unexpected oversteer requires much more skill than the correction of understeer. However, due to the setup and dynamics of a FWD car, as already mentioned, the probability of this occurring in normal driving situations, even with tyres close to the limit is so low that it practically negates the reasons given, whilst the criticality of the traction of the front wheels is of paramount importance. However, unfortunately, it’s insufficiently reasearched and misleading articles like this which influence the decisions of those unable to think for themselves.

Perhaps Kumho should stick to making cheap budget tyres and let their thrifty customers decide where to put them ...

I had Kuhmo tyres as OEM on my Kia Sorento and have used them on several cars without any concerns. I think your view of them as cheap budget tyres is bit outdated. The link below shows the OEMs that fit Kumho as standard, including Mitsubishi, Mercedes and BMW, not renowned as budget cars

]https://www.kumho.com.au/why-kumho/original-equipment-manufacturer

https://www.kumho.com.au/why-kumho/original-equipment-manufacturer[/quote
I fully agree with Clive. SWMBO car has the latest Kumhos fitted as OEM. Excellent all round tyres with great wet handling.
This independent report may put some minds at rest. Kumho are up with the leaders .
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accessories-tyres/100250/kumho-ecsta-hs51-review

 

[Icaru5]

Thanks for correcting me on Kumho’s product range OC & DD. I don’t have time right now to look through the links you kindly posted but certainly don’t doubt your info ...

I would still put the new tyres on the front in a FWD though for the reasons I mentioned.

Just curious about the incidents involving the cavaliers ... Where they MK1’s by any chance (RWD), or was there a sudden, mid corner shift in weight transfer to the front, or camber change ?

If not, then perhaps as Ray says, a patch of oil, or maybe diesel ! ... in any case, having newer tyres on the rear wouldn’t have made any difference.

 

[Craigyoung]

Well like i said , my rears are fine and chunky still and like someone said regarding fwd , i need the grip for pulling away as I'm not 4x4

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks for correcting me on Kumho’s product range OC & DD. I don’t have time right now to look through the links you kindly posted but certainly don’t doubt your info ...

I would still put the new tyres on the front in a FWD though for the reasons I mentioned.

Just curious about the incidents involving the cavaliers ... Where they MK1’s by any chance (RWD), or was there a sudden, mid corner shift in weight transfer to the front, or camber change ?

If not, then perhaps as Ray says, a patch of oil, or maybe diesel ! ... in any case, having newer tyres on the rear wouldn’t have made any difference.

Icaru,
We are all entitled to opinions on here and indeed that is something we all respect. However my view has always been that posts on safety sensitive issues must be technically correct and not just an opinion with no real foundation. From 1992 to 1998 I had two powerful fwd M.K. 3 cavaliers, the last one a 2 litre 16 valve. It ate front tyres, but the rears hardly wore. Even back then both Vauxhall and ATC tyres always fitted the new tyres to the rear, moving the part worn to the front.
Steve has given us a very good technical explanation as a fully qualified expert in his field. Just for the sake of newcomers or anyone who is still unsure I maintain the correct technical safe answer is to fit new tyres to the rear and the part worn rears to the front.

 

[otherclive]

Thanks for correcting me on Kumho’s product range OC & DD. I don’t have time right now to look through the links you kindly posted but certainly don’t doubt your info ...

I would still put the new tyres on the front in a FWD though for the reasons I mentioned.

Just curious about the incidents involving the cavaliers ... Where they MK1’s by any chance (RWD), or was there a sudden, mid corner shift in weight transfer to the front, or camber change ?

If not, then perhaps as Ray says, a patch of oil, or maybe diesel ! ... in any case, having newer tyres on the rear wouldn’t have made any difference.

It was a late model Cavalier that lost its rear end coming around a bend towards my wife. It’s rear swung out into her lane on a country B road. I forgot to ask her to inspect the road surface, or ask the other driver if there was a change in camber or weight transfer as he drove around the bend. But as she was on her own it wasn’t the first thing on her mind. But for future reference I must ask her to check the aforementioned aspects, plus look for mud, wet leaves or cow poo too.

The bend where the accident happened is on a road used regularly by us without any concerns wet or dry. The police didn’t do anything apart from erecting a sign “Police Slow” which was not far enough around the bend and got hit by another car before that car came gently to rest against the police cars bumper. Even more paperwork to complete

 

[otherclive]

Although I’m fortunate enough to be able to replace my tyres well before they are anywhere near the legal limit, at no expense to myself and do so purely for safety, I’m with OC on this one.

In a front wheel drive car, If I was only replacing 2 tyres, then providiing the rears have more than enough tread remaining (as in the 4mm that is being suggested), I would always put the new tyres on the front. The most critical situations, as Clive mentions are traction during acceleration and braking, such as pulling out of junctions, even more so on a FWD without a LSD, bacause as soon as the torque applied to the inside front wheel overecomes the friction between the tyre and the road surface, you are in fact, driving out of the junction with power applied to only one wheel, often onto a busy wet, slippery or muddy main road, sometimes dragging a 1400KG caravan behind. This is as crucial when braking, especially considering that the vast majority of FWD cars have front brake bias, in addition to weight distribution. None of these important factors are even mentioned in the linked article.

Of course, if the rear tyres are approaching the minimum depth, then I will replace those too, but when I consider that in my 28 years of driving, even with (ahem) practically bald rear tyres in my much younger days, I have never, ever had a front wheel drive car unexpectedly oversteer on me. Of course, spirited driving involving deliberately provoked lift-off oversteer in a suitably balanced car is different, but that’s another story !

I do agree with some of the points mentioned in the linked article by budget tyre brand Kumho, particularly that for the average driver, correction of unexpected oversteer requires much more skill than the correction of understeer. However, due to the setup and dynamics of a FWD car, as already mentioned, the probability of this occurring in normal driving situations, even with tyres close to the limit is so low that it practically negates the reasons given, whilst the criticality of the traction of the front wheels is of paramount importance. However, unfortunately, it’s insufficiently reasearched and misleading articles like this which influence the decisions of those unable to think for themselves.

Perhaps Kumho should stick to making cheap budget tyres and let their thrifty customers decide where to put them ...

As one quite able to think for myself, and make decisions aided by information obtained I found the recommendations by Continental Tyres to be in line with most mainline advice. I cannot believe that they are all wrong.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gSz7cm6MwH0
https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/technology/tyre-knowledge/tirelexicon-3-0/tirelexikon-3-7

 

[Icaru5]

Thanks for correcting me on Kumho’s product range OC & DD. I don’t have time right now to look through the links you kindly posted but certainly don’t doubt your info ...

I would still put the new tyres on the front in a FWD though for the reasons I mentioned.

Just curious about the incidents involving the cavaliers ... Where they MK1’s by any chance (RWD), or was there a sudden, mid corner shift in weight transfer to the front, or camber change ?

If not, then perhaps as Ray says, a patch of oil, or maybe diesel ! ... in any case, having newer tyres on the rear wouldn’t have made any difference.

Icaru,
We are all entitled to opinions on here and indeed that is something we all respect. However my view has always been that posts on safety sensitive issues must be technically correct and not just an opinion with no real foundation. From 1992 to 1998 I had two powerful fwd M.K. 3 cavaliers, the last one a 2 litre 16 valve. It ate front tyres, but the rears hardly wore. Even back then both Vauxhall and ATC tyres always fitted the new tyres to the rear, moving the part worn to the front.
Steve has given us a very good technical explanation as a fully qualified expert in his field. Just for the sake of newcomers or anyone who is still unsure I maintain the correct technical safe answer is to fit new tyres to the rear and the part worn rears to the front.

I’m afraid I have to disagree with your opinion on this one DD, especially considering that on a FWD car. the fronts are responsible for all of the traction and the lions share of the braking. As someone who drives all over the country covering more than 35,000 miles per year, I know where I’d rather have my new tyres fitted when the traffic in the outside lane suddenly all jump on their middle pedal right in front of me on a cold, dark, wet January evening, or every time I need to pull out of a slippery junction onto a busy main road, either with or without the caravan in tow. Although the MK 3 cavaliers were nice cars, the 2 litre 16 valve’s, even the red tops (if you were lucky enough to have one of these, but then it would have been a GSi2000 ), whilst weren’t lacking in power had nowhere near as much torque as a modern 2.0 turbo diesel, hence why I replace my front and rear tyres in a more or less 3:1 ratio.

However, although this is my opinion, and you have yours, also for the sake of newcomers and everybody else, there is no “correct” technical safe answer to which axle you should fit your new tyres to. Provided of course that the remaining worn tyres are in a safe condition, it is entirely up to the individual.

 

[otherclive]

Thanks for correcting me on Kumho’s product range OC & DD. I don’t have time right now to look through the links you kindly posted but certainly don’t doubt your info ...

I would still put the new tyres on the front in a FWD though for the reasons I mentioned.

Just curious about the incidents involving the cavaliers ... Where they MK1’s by any chance (RWD), or was there a sudden, mid corner shift in weight transfer to the front, or camber change ?

If not, then perhaps as Ray says, a patch of oil, or maybe diesel ! ... in any case, having newer tyres on the rear wouldn’t have made any difference.

Icaru,
We are all entitled to opinions on here and indeed that is something we all respect. However my view has always been that posts on safety sensitive issues must be technically correct and not just an opinion with no real foundation. From 1992 to 1998 I had two powerful fwd M.K. 3 cavaliers, the last one a 2 litre 16 valve. It ate front tyres, but the rears hardly wore. Even back then both Vauxhall and ATC tyres always fitted the new tyres to the rear, moving the part worn to the front.
Steve has given us a very good technical explanation as a fully qualified expert in his field. Just for the sake of newcomers or anyone who is still unsure I maintain the correct technical safe answer is to fit new tyres to the rear and the part worn rears to the front.

I’m afraid I have to disagree with your opinion on this one DD, especially considering that on a FWD car. the fronts are responsible for all of the traction and the lions share of the braking. As someone who drives all over the country covering more than 35,000 miles per year, I know where I’d rather have my new tyres fitted when the traffic in the outside lane suddenly all jump on their middle pedal right in front of me on a cold, dark, wet January evening, or every time I need to pull out of a slippery junction onto a busy main road, either with or without the caravan in tow. Although the MK 3 cavaliers were nice cars, the 2 litre 16 valve’s, even the red tops (if you were lucky enough to have one of these, but then it would have been a GSi2000 ), whilst weren’t lacking in power had nowhere near as much torque as a modern 2.0 turbo diesel, hence why I replace my front and rear tyres in a more or less 3:1 ratio.

However, although this is my opinion, and you have yours, also for the sake of newcomers and everybody else, there is no “correct” technical safe answer to which axle you should fit your new tyres to. Provided of course that the remaining worn tyres are in a safe condition, it is entirely up to the individual.

However, although this is my opinion, and you have yours, also for the sake of newcomers and everybody else, there is no “correct” technical safe answer to which axle you should fit your new tyres to. Provided of course that the remaining worn tyres are in a safe condition, it is entirely up to the individual.

But there is an overwhelming majority of advice that tends to align its recommendations in one direction, which the Newcomer may wish to consider.

Viz: https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/better-tyres-in-the-front-or-rear-test-results

 

[Icaru5]

I Just watched that 17 year old american video OC, made at a time when that was still predominantly almost entirely a RWD market.

The white RWD e36 at the beginning was deliberately power-sliding.
Of the 2 cars which were being compared, they too ar RWD, I forget the name, but it’s based on the old ford Scorpio despite it being after the GRANADA/Scorpio brand became obsolete in Europe. When you see the clip taken from the front of the black car, you can even see the driver deliberately sawing at the wheel, trying to provoke oversteer. He’d have been working just as hard with his feet.

 

[otherclive]

I Just watched that 17 year old american video OC, made at a time when that was still predominantly almost entirely a RWD market.

The white RWD e36 at the beginning was deliberately power-sliding.
Of the 2 cars which were being compared, they too ar RWD, I forget the name, but it’s based on the old ford Scorpio despite it being after the GRANADA/Scorpio brand became obsolete in Europe. When you see the clip taken from the front of the black car, you can even see the driver deliberately sawing at the wheel, trying to provoke oversteer. He’d have been working just as hard with his feet.

There are lots more similar ones on YouTube with fwd cars. The Oponeo link gives some good test results from independent test authorities in Europe plus Michelin too. Worth reading as the consensus is still best tread on rear for when things go out of line :woohoo:

 

[Hutch]

We are not going to sort it out on here, we all have our own opinions, the best thing to do is to drive safely, and not push limits on public roads.
Back to the pressure sensors,
I got a set of Tyre Pal for the caravan for Xmas, are they as easy to fit as the video states. ?

 

[Icaru5]

Thanks for the much needed reality check Hutch.

We’ve all got our own opinions on this and again, we’ve digressed far from the original topic. Something which I convinced myself I wouldn’t let happen !

 

[Craigyoung]

Hi guys and right guys ;

Update on the sensor faff on . I have just had my new Firestone tyres fitted to the front of the Kuga ( £1o3 each ) - what a difference lovely but whilst getting them done I asked the bloke about my tyre pressure monitor sensor thingyamajigz and I said that I had put fancy Ford metal dust caps on a while ago and straight away he says shouldn't have done that as it plays havoc when they heat up around the valve where the sensor is that's what's been setting my sensers off everytime I hook the caravan up it's doing something to the back tyres not that there is any leakage or anything like that but it's costing £15 per split sensor valve to be replaced
So people don't be fancy if you've got a nice car keep to black standard dust caps !! :dry:

Craig .

 

[steve2019]

yep i quite agree, as a mechanic i check folks tyre pressures every day, those that have fancy metal dust caps are often a right ****** to get off too as the steel reacts with the brass valve and they corrode, if you want fancy vale caps then at least get plastic ones.

 

[Dodger524]

We are not going to sort it out on here, we all have our own opinions, the best thing to do is to drive safely, and not push limits on public roads.
Back to the pressure sensors,
I got a set of Tyre Pal for the caravan for Xmas, are they as easy to fit as the video states. ?

And were they as easy to fit as the video states. ?

 

[Hutch]

We are not going to sort it out on here, we all have our own opinions, the best thing to do is to drive safely, and not push limits on public roads.
Back to the pressure sensors,
I got a set of Tyre Pal for the caravan for Xmas, are they as easy to fit as the video states. ?

And were they as easy to fit as the video states. ?

Yes they were, a little bit complicated to set up the limits, but after a couple of attempts got it done, next tasks is to remove them, set tyre pressures and refit, I will probably do this after brining the van back from storage, so that I can tell if the pressures have changed with the sensors in position on the valve. Whilst in storage.