tyron bands

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Civical,

I don't think any one is saying don't fit Tyron bands if that's what you want.

But if your reason for fitting them is because you believe it gives improved safety, then some of us are saying that we have seen no evidence that supports that view, and after consideration using our own knowledge and understanding of such things we can't see any benefit from fitting them.

Some of the other safety related devices that have been mentioned in the thread have published evidence or the benefits can be easily deduced, and thus one can weigh up the cost vs benefit argument.

I am all for the use of safety gear or techniques, but when drivers become complacent and start to drive dangerously in the belief that the safety devices will keep them on track, then I worry, what happens if the safety device fails to work? This is highly possible because such things are not regularly checked or validated.

 

[Zafiral]

John L

I can see your point on most of the things you say, but I was having a bit of a dig at caravan manufacturers for offering differing upholstery colours and cushions over safety extras.

I still intend to change my tyres when they are 4 years old and I check pressures regularly. Just because I have taken the belt and braces approach does not mean I have become complacent.

 

[Zafiral]

alan

The following is my understanding.....

Re ABS vs ATC, ATC can only apply the brakes gradually if it detects characteristics which it (the ATC control unit) are the beginning of a snake. This could help the car regain control as it may help stop the caravan overtaking the car. ATC works at its best if the car is not braking as it will attempt to slow the caravan down at a greater rate than the car is slowing down, this should reduce the tendancy for the caravan to try and come round the car (ie jack-knife).

However, if the car is braking heavily then ATC will have no effect. Importantly it cannot release the caravan brakes in the event of a locked up caravan wheel. This would be the benifit of ABS (if it was possible/viable) fitted to a caravan.

 

[Lutz]

Yes, Civical, your understanding is correct.

If my memory serves me right, some time in the 1980's a caravan chassis manufacturer (I can't remember who but it wasn't one of the big ones) offered a chassis with hydraulic disc brakes. In order to keep costs and technical complexity to a minimum, they tried to make do without a servo. Unfortunately, this turned out to be an insuperable hurdle and the product was withdrawn very quickly.

 

[ProfJohnL]

John L

I can see your point on most of the things you say, but I was having a bit of a dig at caravan manufacturers for offering differing upholstery colours and cushions over safety extras.

I still intend to change my tyres when they are 4 years old and I check pressures regularly. Just because I have taken the belt and braces approach does not mean I have become complacent.

It good to hear that you are not complacent, sadly that is not true of all drivers.

I can appreciate your dig at the manufacturers, but perhaps like me they cannot see any benefit in the tyron system, and besides which they probably make more profit from a change upholstery than buying someone else's product to fit to their caravan. so....

 

[Zafiral]

Yes, Civical, your understanding is correct.

If my memory serves me right, some time in the 1980's a caravan chassis manufacturer (I can't remember who but it wasn't one of the big ones) offered a chassis with hydraulic disc brakes. In order to keep costs and technical complexity to a minimum, they tried to make do without a servo. Unfortunately, this turned out to be an insuperable hurdle and the product was withdrawn very quickly.

Phew

The ATC cost quite a bit more than the tyron bands, so at least the ATC appears to have a bit more quantifiable benifit than the tyrons.

 

[Martin_374319553]

Having read all the threads on this topic I thought I'd just point out a couple of things re run flat tyres.

Firstly, you can't fit run flat tyres to normal wheel rims. They have to be special run flat wheels. You can fit non-run flat tyres to run flat wheels though if you want.

All BMWs now come with run flat tyres (except on 19" or 20" rims on the M series cars) and have done for a few years. I have a 5 series with run flats. The handbook states towing capacities and nowhere does it say not to tow if you have a flat tyre.

Also, as for ride quality, on earlier cars this was worse but the newer ones are now very good.

My view on Tyron bands is that a non-run flat tyre doesn't have a very strong side wall and so keeping the tyre bead on the wheel will have minimal effect as the remaining side wall will just get squashed. It may protect the wheel rim but that's it.

As for the couple of people that said they had punctures with Tyron bands fitted and they weren't aware they had a puncture - surely that could end up being a lot worse. You might have carried on down steep hills with tight bends and the van may have just suddenly let go.

On balance, I'm not convinced they would help so I won't bother. If you think they would help then go for it - it's your money.

 

[Rich]

I have been away and missed this thread. Lutz is right with almost everything he has said.

Tyron are there for after horse has bolted.... If the tyre is ripped apart then damage from the remaining steel chords will possibly do damage to the van anyway. As pointed out old vans using steel wheels did not have the safety lip and were prone to having tyres come off the rim. Now it happens less due to the shape of the lip. Blow outs may not have become less but the bead coming off the rim is. I think it is better to have a pressure monitoring device as there is a warning in almost 99% of tyre blow outs. They are only instant as far as you are concerned because you cannot see the tyre pressure and temperature changes before it lets go.

The added weight of the bands will change the moment of inertia and adding to "un-sprung" weight is a bad thing. Even though many think suspension is not fitted to vans, we do have it fitted would find the added weight and inertia will have a negative effect on the suspension. The rubber dampers used would have more bounce with more wheel weight and this will also increase tyre wear. I have spent months working with wheels and moments of inertia and to dismiss them as it is a slow moving caravan is short sighted. I now use Carbon Fibre wheels on my motorcycle and at over

 

[charles_374373605]

I have been away and missed this thread. Lutz is right with almost everything he has said.

Tyron are there for after horse has bolted.... If the tyre is ripped apart then damage from the remaining steel chords will possibly do damage to the van anyway. As pointed out old vans using steel wheels did not have the safety lip and were prone to having tyres come off the rim. Now it happens less due to the shape of the lip. Blow outs may not have become less but the bead coming off the rim is. I think it is better to have a pressure monitoring device as there is a warning in almost 99% of tyre blow outs. They are only instant as far as you are concerned because you cannot see the tyre pressure and temperature changes before it lets go.

The added weight of the bands will change the moment of inertia and adding to "un-sprung" weight is a bad thing. Even though many think suspension is not fitted to vans, we do have it fitted would find the added weight and inertia will have a negative effect on the suspension. The rubber dampers used would have more bounce with more wheel weight and this will also increase tyre wear. I have spent months working with wheels and moments of inertia and to dismiss them as it is a slow moving caravan is short sighted. I now use Carbon Fibre wheels on my motorcycle and at over

 

[JTQ]

RogerL stated:-

"I'm a great believer in commercial pressure - if the companies that insure caravans had any evidence that Tyron safety bands are beneficial, they would either be a requirement or have a loading on the premium if not fitted."

Well some indeed do:-

Notably as it is relevant to many of us the Camping and Caravan Club give a 10% discount for Tyron Bands.

Also Crusader do though I cant remember the percentage they place on them.

So those at the sharp end, paying out on accidents and having the facts available to them put a very significant value on them.

 

[Lutz]

Judging by a number of comments made in this thread and the obvious lack of substantiating information from the manufacturer, it seems that some insurance companies have been blinded by claims regarding the apparent benefits of Tyron bands without consulting technical experts first.

 

[JTQ]

Lutz .

Given your normal factual, soundly based stance I am surprised.

I said they have the evidence of accident claims and choose to reduce the premium for those using Tyron Bands.

That is fact; whether they were seduced by the manufacturer or have not consulted with any technical experts is at best speculation.

 

[Lutz]

I just cannot believe why the insurance companies should be unwilling to share with the public information regarding the apparent benefits of Tyron bands. Fact is that no-one has come up with substantiated data. Based on my own experience and that of a number of other contributors to this thread I fail to see any logical technical explanation for their benefits, either.

 

[Rich]

Lutz is one of those guys I look to for unbiased info. Just because his comments in this topic seems to go against what some think is fact doesn't mean he has changed. His opinion is still valid and he has done his homework. I have worked in the motor industry on the engineering, motorsport and developement side for the past 20 years. Tyron bands are a solution to a problem which existed with the older steel wheels and as the problem was so wide spread the insurance industry saw a place for the product and it saved them money as it did help with the problem. Now once these discounts are in place you find they stay there as the insurers will still want to have a discount for the budget vans which still use steel wheels.

So using the insurance discount argument is not valid as it is to cover for all the vans which still have older steel wheels.

I would not under estimate the difference of putting the added mass of the bands on alloy wheels. It can add upto a lot of rotational mass which will effect the moment of inertia and have a negative effect on tyre wear and on the rubbers in the axle.

 

[Robert_374373903]

Just another comment regarding bands, which we have.I had to get new tyre fitted and asked whether the firm done changing a tyre withe Tyron bands and as he said he did not like doing them but he has done them before i let him get on with it.After 30 min' with help he got it on.

 

[Rich]

Robert you didn't say if you had alloy wheels or steel ones. I am asking as I posted earlier about the benefits of using them being related to steel wheel use. If not why did you fit them?

I am only interested as many here claim to do their home work but seem to not know that with Alloy wheels the internal profile of the rim makes Tyron bands redundant. I just want to understand where people get their information from or do the purely believe self promoting litarature created by the manufacturer.

I ask for another reason not related to Tyron but something I have done and want to know if I can save money by doing it all myself of if I need to get independant data to back up my claims.

 

[Gafferbill]

Tyre maintenance is what is essential in all its aspects.

You have to realise that a single axle caravan asks a great deal of its two tyres whilst being towed.

A caravan is near to the weight of the car doing the towing which has it's weight spread over 4 tyres.

When not being towed a caravan's tyres can be subjected to all sorts of obuse.

It is much more important to maintain your tyres and change them regularly.

I personally prefer Brass Bands such as the Brighouse and Rastrick!

 

[Robert_374373903]

Robert you didn't say if you had alloy wheels or steel ones. I am asking as I posted earlier about the benefits of using them being related to steel wheel use. If not why did you fit them?

I am only interested as many here claim to do their home work but seem to not know that with Alloy wheels the internal profile of the rim makes Tyron bands redundant. I just want to understand where people get their information from or do the purely believe self promoting litarature created by the manufacturer.

I ask for another reason not related to Tyron but something I have done and want to know if I can save money by doing it all myself of if I need to get independant data to back up my claims.

Hello Rich , yes we have Coachman alloy wheels and reason i had them fitted was that going on line for insurances they kept on about have i got the bands. Thinking they could be a good thing i got them. But in an earlier post i mentioned i had a sidewll blowout in France and that was with a 2 year old tyre and pressuer was corresct. Result one bent alloy wheel with edges worn off, and i did feel it go with caravan crabbing.

 

[bognorbelter]

The Idea of Tyrons is to keep the bead in position and hold the side wall in place at the same time, so that the caravan runs on the side walls in the case of a puncture or blowout. They are only a safety feature, and the hope is that in the case of a flat tyre being run with a tyron, someone will notice before the situation gets too worse.
It makes no difference whether you have steel or alloy wheels, as both have beads and both have a well in the centre which the tyron is designed to fill.
Without the tyron, the tyre quickly falls off of the bead and into the well, it then flops over and comes off the rim altogether.

 

[gem_rodelas]

Tyron Bands and Tyre Sealant are intended for different situations. Tyre Sealant is designed to seal slow punctures to prevent the blow-out
associated with overheated tyres due to running at reduced pressure. Tyron Bands are designed to keep the punctured tyre on the wheel rim. Theoretically, using both would be ideal but I imagine the Tyre Sealant
would seize the Tyron mechanism making tyre replacement impossible.

 

[Lutz]

Without the tyron, the tyre quickly falls off of the bead and into the well, it then flops over and comes off the rim altogether.

Are you sure? Tyron bands won't prevent the tyre from disintegrating. At best they can keep the bead on the rim, but the bead on its own won't provide any roadholding performance once the tread has gone.

 

[SteveW77]

Without the tyron, the tyre quickly falls off of the bead and into the well, it then flops over and comes off the rim altogether.

That did not happen when I had a blow out on an Autobahn last summer, The alloy rims cut the tyre off leaving a 2" strip on both beads which remained firmly attached and had to be cut off at a tyre depot.
So no Tyron bands for me. However I have purchased a tyre pressure warning system.

Steve W

 

[RogerL]

Without the tyron, the tyre quickly falls off of the bead and into the well, it then flops over and comes off the rim altogether.

Wheel rims have had safety ledges for many years, designed to keep the bead in the right place - this does it's job in many tyre failures - in the extreme failures the Tyron band will indeed stop the bead dropping in the central well but if the forces were high enough to get the bead over the safety ledges there's probably not much tyre left to benefit from.