UK Caravan Manufacturers,The Old Chestnuts of Aero Dynamics and Build Quality.

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. Now I don't wish to be seen as, nor even thought of as being a 'BRITISH BASHER'. I have been saying for some time now on this and other forums that when the 2.5mtr wide caravans are legally towable here in the UK,WATCH OUT UK MANUFACTURERS.
My last attempt at emphasising this was right after the November 2010 issue of the Practical Caravan Magazine with the Absolutely Fabulous TABBERT PAGANINI. That was the caravan hanging on the back of the Vauxhall Sport Tourer being tested by Mottie.
Well here we go. On E'bay at present there is the 2012 Hobby Premium,it is item number 320750297395. After you have been blown away by the SMOOOOOOOTH and STUNNING appearance move on to GOOGLE and search further. There are a number of options and between them they cover the full range.
The only downside is that UNTIL the UK has ' FULLY HARMONISED' with Europe the top of the range jobbie is over our maximum permitted towing length.
Watch the sales of the likes of the Chrysler 300C Touring rise to avoid being seen as a VAN MAN TRAVELLER with LOADS A MONEY.

 

[Parksy]

I don't quite understand why you find it necessary to introduce words written in block capitals in a seemingly random fashion TR, this sort of thing detracts from whatever it is that you are trying to say.
You will also find that Rule 10 Form etiquette ask members not to use block capitals when submitting forum content.

 

[oldagetraveller1]

As an ex-pat living in France, I have owned a Hobby and an Eriba Touring. The Hobby was a disaster in terms of build quality! The Eriba chassis and shell was well built but the interior fell apart. It was a constant job re-fitting door panels, kitchen drawers etc. Now I have a Hymer Feeling which does seem tough and durable - but at a price! When back in UK recently, I looked at a number of new Brit vans with my son. Yes, I was surprised to see broken door locks, poor finishing etc, but, overall, they seem on a par with Euro vans. At the end of the day, as the old saying goes, 'you get what you pay for'.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi oldagetraveller. My main point in identifying the 2012 Hobby Premium was the very smooth & apparently very aerodynamic profiles of the body.
Yes,I am sure there have been problems with Continental Caravans and I am sure that they will not completely cease,however and in particular the Hobby Caravans are built to live in,all year around.
My guess is that for a fair & honest assessment of Hobby in particular but other Continental Caravans also one would need to talk with a Traveller of the Travelling Van Man type.
We have regular transitory families passing through our region of West Lancashire,not always the tidiest upon leaving,albeit they have started to 'bag up' and leave it for the council clear-up trucks that often accompany the Bailiff & Police
The next time they pass through I will practice my Gaelic and attempt to glean some info.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Paksy. Yes,OK but only over enthusiastic reporting of the changing face of wider Europe !!

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Naughty Naughty Rooster

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[oldagetraveller1]

Hello, Rooster
I can only speak from experience of my Hobby. If it was built to live in long-term, then I can only suggest that buyers brush up on their survival tactics! For what it is worth, I will pass on the received wisdom of other long term caravanners that I have come across here in Continental Europe. That is that Hobby, despite being hugely popular, are regarded as being towards the bottom of the quality table, with Tabbert, Fendt etc towards the top. But I have no way of knowing how accurate those perceptions are.

 

[Lutz]

I agree with Oldagetraveller. Hobby is the largest single make, but even on home ground they don't have a better than average reputation.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to Oldagetraveller & Lutz. Interesting comments from you both. Obviously as most things in life are relative & subjective I guess that would put Hobby into the old Fleetwood/Avondale banding and The Fendt, LMC and Dethleffs etc into Swift Group or Bailey of Bristol banding.
Iguess that leaves the Tabbert and especially the Paganini in the Vanmaster/VanRoyce banding.
I know that everything caravanning and squeezed into the confines of the body is a compromise,the one disappointment with the 2012 Hobby Premium 650UFf is the apparent size of the loo/washroom/show.

 

[John_374564913]

I was very interested learning about European caravans in comparison to ours so had a look on the website and would make the following comments.

The external look I am not over enthusiastic about but see where coachman are coming from with the folds over the top on there 2012 model whic is similar to the premium

On the inside is where I think they lose out to the UK the shower as the comment was already made is very small and compact
Secondly the heating is blown air truma that works on gas only.
From the pictures the full size fridge looks smaller than the one you would get in a Bailey I might be wrong but that is how it looks on the photo.
I might be wrong but anybody who goes winter vanning on a CL site in England would not have the comfort in the European van that he would in something like a Bailey Unicorn

Correct me If I am wrong these are only my thoughts looking at pictures and what little specification details I could find

 

[Lutz]

Over here, Hobby is considered a pretty 'run-of-the-mill' brand, roughly on the same level as TEC (a Hymer brand), and Adria.
Fendt (the 'upmarket' Hobby) and LMC (Hymer) are considered sound but conservative. I'd place Bürstner (Hymer, again) and Knaus in the same market, but perhaps not as conservative. The Hymer/Eriba brand itself has a very good reputation, as does Dethleffs (also Hymer) which places a bit more emphasis on style and innovation. Tabbert used to be considered rather staid and conservative, but since they were taken over by Knaus they have done a lot to modernise their image while maintaining their position as the flagship of the Knaus Group.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Paksy. Yes,OK but only over enthusiastic reporting of the changing face of wider Europe !!

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Naughty Naughty Rooster

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No problem TR, I like your enthusiasm

You raise some interesting points in your observations concerning the perceived differences between continental and UK built caravans.
Popular opinion has long held that contiental caravans such as Hobby, Tabbert, Fendt etc are far superior to caravans manufactured here in the UK and while that may conceivably have been true in the bad old days ten years and more ago I'm not convinced that this supposed superiority holds true today.
I've had a very brief look at the interiors via a download and yes, they certainly look very well built but as with all caravans a compromise has to be acheived and accepted.
How heavy are they? You would need a beefy towing vehicle and very deep pockets in terms of fuel bills to tow one of these caravans around the highways and byways of Britain.
At least a six year bodyshell integrity guarantee is standard on UK built caravans and of course Bailey now offer the 10 year guarantee against water ingress.
Unfortunately the UK caravan industry lets itself down quite badly by poor QA procedures and by relying on their dealer networks to carry out PDI checks on work that should be 100% perfect before it leaves the factories with the result that bits and pieces still tend to become loose and fail on UK caravans and here on our caravan forums these complaints about poor workmanship comprise the bulk of forum content.
What no one ever mentions is that bits and pieces also become loose on continental models too but because we don't subscribe to European caravan forums we never hear of these things unless a UK buyer writes a post about their continental caravan problems (and I've seen a few!)
The dramatic looking new Hobby's offer ovens and microwaves as optional extras' we have become used to these things being fitted as standard equipment for years, they have LED lighting - so do we and the list goes on......
The biggest difference is in price, Continental caravans can hardly compete with home manufactured products in terms of price and equipment levels not to mention weight.
When I see as many leisure caravanners Hobby's trundling up and down the M5 to the coast as I do Baileys. Swifts, Coachmans etc I'll buy into the overall superiority of continental caravans but so far I'm not conviced

 

[Gagakev]

Obviously as most things in life are relative & subjective I guess that would put Hobby into the old Fleetwood/Avondale banding and The Fendt, LMC and Dethleffs etc into Swift Group or Bailey of Bristol banding.
Iguess that leaves the Tabbert and especially the Paganini in the Vanmaster/VanRoyce banding.

Surely it should have read Hobby in the Swift Group or Bailey of Bristol banding. and the Fleetwood in the The Fendt, LMC and Dethleffs etc !!!!!!!!!!!!
I accept it is only your opinion but mine is quite the reverse, owning a Fleetwood I can't agree with your statement, when searching for a newer van 6 to 8 months ago and comparing swifts and Baileys against the Fleetwood there was no comparison for the same age vans (2008 models). You only have to look on this forum to read about the problems about this that and other things like doors dropping off, catches broken, this not working etc etc. The build quality in my opinion is far superior to the swifts and Baileys.
Ok so Fleetwood went bust, but was this due to there own making, installing better quality fitments/interiors so pushing the price up? I also appreciate they were not made in the UK.

 

[Lutz]

Ok so Fleetwood went bust, but was this due to there own making, installing better quality fitments/interiors so pushing the price up? I also appreciate they were not made in the UK.

Really? I always thought Fleetwoods were built in Long Melford although the company itself was owned by Adria.

 

[DianneT]

Yes you are right Lutz they were manufactured at Long Melford.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Lutz.You beat me to it. The association with Adria I don't think was such a good one.It certainly was not a long marriage and for the workforce it did not result in a happy one either.
It made me wonder whether Adria wanted a UK based connection but it was rather short lived.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Kev. This is a classic case of individual perception. Our old (1992) Fleetwood Colchester 1850 was a typical Double Dinette Twin Axle. It was 18yrs old when it had rear OS corner damage inflicted upon it. It became an Uneconomical Repair. The van was absolutely bone dry. As caravans went in the early 90's it was good. The real let-downs were the stupid lift up sink in the wash-room that persisted in dropping on the move,if it was in the down position it would jump all over the place and the ' very suspect ' cabinet over the sink with the hit & miss fastenings. When the fastenings missed the right-hand mirror did not miss the unit. Smashed mirror slithers are dodgy in a shower tray.
However, their scales needed some serious looking at,the actual Ex Factory Weight was 120kgs over the published weight. The Nose Weight on level ground and with the van at Ex Factory status was 125kgs,believe me that took some very careful trimming.

 

[Gagakev]

Just been out to the van and double checked, the badge inside the door states.
Made in Slovenia
Imported by Adria, Long Melford.
Please accept my apoligies if I am wrong!!!!!

 

[Gagakev]

Hi Kev. This is a classic case of individual perception. Our old (1992) Fleetwood Colchester 1850 was a typical Double Dinette Twin Axle. It was 18yrs old when it had rear OS corner damage inflicted upon it. It became an Uneconomical Repair. The van was absolutely bone dry. As caravans went in the early 90's it was good. The real let-downs were the stupid lift up sink in the wash-room that persisted in dropping on the move,if it was in the down position it would jump all over the place and the ' very suspect ' cabinet over the sink with the hit & miss fastenings. When the fastenings missed the right-hand mirror did not miss the unit. Smashed mirror slithers are dodgy in a shower tray.
However, their scales needed some serious looking at,the actual Ex Factory Weight was 120kgs over the published weight. The Nose Weight on level ground and with the van at Ex Factory status was 125kgs,believe me that took some very careful trimming.

Hi TR as you can proberbly guess I am really happy with mine, Sonata Symphony, and this one does'nt have the jumping sink (ha ha) , How ever have to agree on the nose weight, I actually started a thread on here because I struggled to get the nose weight down to a acceptable level, and thought I was doing something wrong, but as time has passed on checking and loading the same each time i travel at around 85 to 90 kilo's.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Kev, I've seen your Fleetwood from the outside and it's obvious that you really like it and take great pride in keeping it looking absolutely top line.
Comparisons between caravans which are not brand new models whether they are UK built or of European origin are fairly meaningless in the real world because so many factors are brought to bear on the overall condition of any caravan after it leaves the dealers forecourt for the first time.
A caravan after it has been bought may be cherished and looked after or it may be abused or neglected, there are too many imponderables to start grouping caravan manufacturers in terms of build quality because the industry as a whole has such variable day to day standards and the only way to test the build quality or "reliability" of a caravan is to use it over a period of time.
Anecdotal evidence gleaned from caravan forums suggests that the caravan industry both at home and abroad completely neglect the long term day to day consistent 'useability' of caravans although Continental caravans may be marginally better in this respect.
Roger L most succinctly summed up the position regarding caravan build quality in a separate topic:

Having been involved in the implementation of BS5750 in a software house, it was clear to all that BS5750 doesn't improve PRODUCT quality, it just ensures a systematic approach to the whole business - the product QUALITY can be what ever the company sets out to deliver..
If a manufacturer wants to build/sell low quality items, then the products only need to meet the manufacturers' reliability benchmark.
If a car model or brand has a reliability issue, real or perceived, fewer customers buy that model or brand and second-hand values plummet - whether the manufacturer does anything about it is up to them but the message is plain to see in reduced sales.
Caravanner's, however, keep on buying them as if they're all perfect - if you look at used prices, no brand is any better or worse than any other - so there's absolutely no benefit in any of the manufacturers building better caravans, they won't sell any more because sales are driven by fashion and impulse.

Roger has outlined the present situation very well.

 

[Gagakev]

Hi Kev, I've seen your Fleetwood from the outside and it's obvious that you really like it and take great pride in keeping it looking absolutely top line.
Comparisons between caravans which are not brand new models whether they are UK built or of European origin are fairly meaningless in the real world because so many factors are brought to bear on the overall condition of any caravan after it leaves the dealers forecourt for the first time.

Hi Parksy, whilst I tend to agree with you on the comparison issue's of used vans, I would tend to personally think that the build quality from manufacture has a part to play, using better quality materials to me means the product lasting longer and getting better service out of it.
I know we will all defend our particular vans, after all it's your/our choice and your/our hard earned cash that paid for it.

 

[Parksy]

The old adage that you get what you pay for applies to some extent where brand new caravans are concerned Kev, but construction methods and build quality amongst UK manufacturers has been broadly similar (some might say equally bad) for years until recently when Bailey launched the AluTec construction across their ranges.
Materials used on the interiors of UK caravans had also been similar until Swift introduced the moulded plastic locker formers which have probably been copied by other manufacturers since.
Nowadays we see less complaints about panel or joint failure leading to water ingress (thank goodness) but lots of complaints about interior fittings becoming loose and component failure across the spectrum of UK manufacturers.
No matter how good the materials used in caravan construction if a non-permanent agency sourced labour force continues to be used and there continues to be a lack of effective quality control at factories build quality will continue to be an issue here.
I have no forum based information for continental caravans but I suspect that similar issues arise from time to time from the limited information posted here by owners of European built caravans.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Kev,

I do belive the materials used in modern caravans are in many cases better than those used a few years ago, consistency of grain, colour, thickness accuracy of cut or manufacture of components. should give the caravan manufacture the opportunity to produce consistent products,

What is wrong is the design that determins how the materials are used, and the haphazard production methods including the lack of effective quality control

Use a good material in the wrong application, and the net effect can be worse than using a less appropriate material but utilised properly.

Equally even with the right materials in the right application but assembled poorly can be out performed by the older and less appropriate methods.

As Parksy puts it very well, the lack of quality control during the manufacture is one of the fundamental failings of the UK caravan industry.

Little things like the designer may expect a door panel to be pinned/stapled to its frame at say 150mm intervals. As there is no guide for the assembly worker to follow, the interval will be inconsistent, some pins may be missed and some may end up double pinned which actually weakens the fixing, and some pins may not be on target missing the sub frame altogether.

It amazing to understand that often the same physical effort and time is required to complete the job whether its done correctly or incorrectly, so why doesn't the worker follow the correct design? - possibly lack of training, repetitive activity boredom, or simply no care or pride in the work they do, no incentive to be careful, or more to the point no penalty if their work is shoddy.

Under these circumstances, the manufacture should also design the assembly process to be idiot proof or to apply a level of inspection where the issue may be critical to either safety or a legislative requirement. A jig or template may seem an expensive up front cost, but if it raises the overall reliability of the finished product, it will pay for its self by reducing warranty and rework costs.

 

[Hamer_5041128]

Hi All,
After 35 plus years of caravanning and owning 10 new caravans i despair at reading threads on this particular subject.
Members place threads on this forum when they have a problem and therefore in general we only ever hear from members with problems. Over my many years of caravanning i have spoken to people with all makes of caravans who have had problems. As i have said before a good dealer who does a full pdi and looks after the customer is worth their weght in gold. In all of my discussions with caravanners no particular make of caravan stands out as the best, I have even seen a very damp Carlight and also a Castleton.
On site you very rarely get someone comeing up to you and anouncing how wonderfull their caravan is. Just the opposite.
My last four caravans, 3 Bailey Senators and my present one a Swift Conqueror have all been trouble free except for a water heater element. When you see how people tow their caravans over speed bumps on site and up and down kerbs it is no wonder they have problems.
I have had the same dealer for over 25 years Golden Castle Caravans. There are other good dealers, if you find one stick with them. I have a 380 mile round trip to my dealer but well worth the journey.
Hamer

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Hamer
You said - "As i have said before a good dealer who does a full pdi and looks after the customer is worth their weght in gold"
The fundamental point is that a dealer should not have to do a PDI, as the product should be perfect BEFORE it leaves the manufacturer. It is the manufacturer's quality control that is missing.

 

[Surfer]

The biggest drawback of most Hobbys is the small bathroom. The shower and the washroom are one and the same even on the big Hobbys. British caravans have decent bathrooms and shower areas. They also have ovens which seems to be lacking in the new Hobby Premium.