Undelivered goods - advice on next step

[Parksy]

This post has nothing at all to do with caravans, but I'd be grateful for some advice or confirmation about the next step that I should take to either obtain delivery of goods or to claim a refund.
In June this year I ordered a bespoke suit and hand made shirt from a firm that advertises them locally.
I was very professionally measured for my garments in June this year and I paid via debit card there and then.
I don't use credit cards although I'm aware that if I had paid by credit card the company would act on my behalf.
The guy who measured me is one if two company directors, and my payment of £783 went to the fabric company owned by this gentleman and his co-director brother.
I was told that my garments should be completed about 8 to 12 weeks after the measuring process, because the clothing is cut and made overseas.
After that - nothing.
My clothing should have been ready by mid August or early September but this company didn't contact me until I emailed them in August.
The director tried to phone me once but unfortunately I missed his call and he left no message.
By the start of October, after reading some rather worrying comments about this tailoring company and it's directors about failure to deliver ordered items and no refunds I emailed the company director who I'd dealt with throughout.
He replied via email that my garments had been delayed and he stated in his email that he would contact me within the next 24 hours.
He didn't contact me at all, either via email or telephone alrhough he has my full contact details.
I sent a further email after last Friday 5 days with no information to inform this director that I'd allow a further week to pass from their opening day on Tuesday this week for them to contact me.
Nothing so far, so this morning I decided to phone this tailoring company to remind them of their obligations to me.
A 'receptionist' answered this mornings call and blithely informed me that the two directors were 'unavailable' which set the alarm bells ringing for me.
I asked the receptionist to tell the director to contact me asap because the bespoke suit and shirt that I ordered are significantly overdue and that unless they replied I will take steps to obtain a full refund of money that I paid for these garments.
Although I paid using a debit card, I'm aware that if I don't receive my garments I can open a chargeback dispute via the bank to obtain a refund, or if no satisfactorily completed garments are available for me to collect from their Birmingham office within a specified time period I could use a County Court to obtain a full refund plus costs.
The director phoned me within the hour this morning to say that my garments have been made but that delivery was delayed due to Covid 19.
I'm slightly sceptical because some of the less than flattering comments that I've read mentioned that this is a regular excuse used by this company.
So now my dilemma is that after a very firm conversation on my part to this director in which I mentioned the poor reviews and almost complete lack of communication from them to me this director couldn't give me a firm collection date, he apologised for the lack of communication and I told him that unless I'm kept updated I will consider our contract of sale ended and that I'll take appropriate action to get my money back.
Am I missing anything?
I intend to send an email later to outline this mornings conversation, should I set a time limit before cancelling?
The tailoring company have in their T&Cs a 'force majeur' clause, but how much of a delay should I allow for this Covid style act of God ( more like act of the Chinese war dept) before finally giving up on a bespoke suit and shirt and trying to get my money back?
Apologies for the lengthy query, thanks for reading it.

 

[otherclive]

This post has nothing at all to do with caravans, but I'd be grateful for some advice or confirmation about the next step that I should take to either obtain delivery of goods or to claim a refund.
In June this year I ordered a bespoke suit and hand made shirt from a firm that advertises them locally.
I was very professionally measured for my garments in June this year and I paid via debit card there and then.
I don't use credit cards although I'm aware that if I had paid by credit card the company would act on my behalf.
The guy who measured me is one if two company directors, and my payment of £783 went to the fabric company owned by this gentleman and his co-director brother.
I was told that my garments should be completed about 8 to 12 weeks after the measuring process, because the clothing is cut and made overseas.
After that - nothing.
My clothing should have been ready by mid August or early September but this company didn't contact me until I emailed them in August.
The director tried to phone me once but unfortunately I missed his call and he left no message.
By the start of October, after reading some rather worrying comments about this tailoring company and it's directors about failure to deliver ordered items and no refunds I emailed the company director who I'd dealt with throughout.
He replied via email that my garments had been delayed and he stated in his email that he would contact me within the next 24 hours.
He didn't contact me at all, either via email or telephone alrhough he has my full contact details.
I sent a further email after last Friday 5 days with no information to inform this director that I'd allow a further week to pass from their opening day on Tuesday this week for them to contact me.
Nothing so far, so this morning I decided to phone this tailoring company to remind them of their obligations to me.
A 'receptionist' answered this mornings call and blithely informed me that the two directors were 'unavailable' which set the alarm bells ringing for me.
I asked the receptionist to tell the director to contact me asap because the bespoke suit and shirt that I ordered are significantly overdue and that unless they replied I will take steps to obtain a full refund of money that I paid for these garments.
Although I paid using a debit card, I'm aware that if I don't receive my garments I can open a chargeback dispute via the bank to obtain a refund, or if no satisfactorily completed garments are available for me to collect from their Birmingham office within a specified time period I could use a County Court to obtain a full refund plus costs.
The director phoned me within the hour this morning to say that my garments have been made but that delivery was delayed due to Covid 19.
I'm slightly sceptical because some of the less than flattering comments that I've read mentioned that this is a regular excuse used by this company.
So now my dilemma is that after a very firm conversation on my part to this director in which I mentioned the poor reviews and almost complete lack of communication from them to me this director couldn't give me a firm collection date, he apologised for the lack of communication and I told him that unless I'm kept updated I will consider our contract of sale ended and that I'll take appropriate action to get my money back.
Am I missing anything?
I intend to send an email later to outline this mornings conversation, should I set a time limit before cancelling?
The tailoring company have in their T&Cs a 'force majeur' clause, but how much of a delay should I allow for this Covid style act of God ( more like act of the Chinese war dept) before finally giving up on a bespoke suit and shirt and trying to get my money back?
Apologies for the lengthy query, thanks for reading it.

Put your concerns in writing and give them a 14 day response time. Failing to receive your items or refund tell them that you will be pursuing the matter via the Small Claims Court on line procedure. A registered letter may be better than email, or at least in parallel with email. FM doesn't really come into it in this case.
Good luck

 

[Thingy]

Firstly, I would have no further contact by phone. Do it all in writing then you have a full record. Send them a recorded delivery stating they either refund your money in 14 days, or you will file claim against them in the small claims court. If they haven't refunded, simply do it. You pay so much up front, and run the case online if its under a set amount. Cant remember the amount but its way above what you are owed. I had to do it with a Fascia company for just under 2k. Then they will either chicken out and refund, which is in their interest to do so, or they will have to appear. I doubt you can lose this and you would get your deposit back of course. I seem to remember putting £75 down. I understand that Covid is causing chaos, but a lack of communication isn't acceptable, and given the reviews you have already seen, I think this may be your best course of action.

If its a "wide awake" suit you are wanting, try Trotters Independant Traders

 

[Buckman]

Appraoch your bank even though you used a Debit card. I think in the Banking code somewhere ther is something that covers Debit card payments. Better advcei cna be obtained on the Consumer Action forum at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/?new

 

[ProfJohnL]

Oh dear Parksy,

You have confirmed you knew this company does not actually make the suits, they are in fact out worked, and it might even be abroad.

It is also complicated by the fact the suit is "bespoke" and made to your specific measurements, so it's not as if a it is a standard product that could be easily sold to someone else if the order was cancelled. so you may be bound to the contract.

However from what you tell us, it seems the problem is the suit has not been supplied, within the time frame you expected. You tell us "it should have been completed in 8 to 12 Weeks", so I have to assume that no completion date was actually agreed. "Should" is a weasel word with no force.

Unfortunately without an agreed completion date its difficult to press for a non delivery breech of contract action.

We do know the Covid 19 pandemic has affected business in the UK, but we have little knowledge or hard in formation on how it may have affected overseas businesses, especially in the murky world of overseas textile workers and clothing suppliers, so its difficult to disprove the companies use of this reason for the delay. 'force majeur' is a rather loose phrase, and get out clause, but I believe that depending on the circumstances in which it is used, it could be challenged.

It does seem unreasonable the company has not kept you advised of the delays, but again unless that is set out in the contract then it seems they may have not failed in their contractual obligations.

Based on the information you have provided, I don't think there has been a breech of contract to force the company to refund. The only ***** is the long delay and whether that is unreasonable given the present circumstances.

Perhaps a charm offensive might work, or the threat of exposing the companies performance on social media.

 

[otherclive]

Oh dear Parksy,

You have confirmed you knew this company does not actually make the suits, they are in fact out worked, and it might even be abroad.

It is also complicated by the fact the suit is "bespoke" and made to your specific measurements, so it's not as if a it is a standard product that could be easily sold to someone else if the order was cancelled. so you may be bound to the contract.

However from what you tell us, it seems the problem is the suit has not been supplied, within the time frame you expected. You tell us "it should have been completed in 8 to 12 Weeks", so I have to assume that no completion date was actually agreed. "Should" is a weasel word with no force.

Unfortunately without an agreed completion date its difficult to press for a non delivery breech of contract action.

We do know the Covid 19 pandemic has affected business in the UK, but we have little knowledge or hard in formation on how it may have affected overseas businesses, especially in the murky world of overseas textile workers and clothing suppliers, so its difficult to disprove the companies use of this reason for the delay. 'force majeur' is a rather loose phrase, and get out clause, but I believe that depending on the circumstances in which it is used, it could be challenged.

It does seem unreasonable the company has not kept you advised of the delays, but again unless that is set out in the contract then it seems they may have not failed in their contractual obligations.

Based on the information you have provided, I don't think there has been a breech of contract to force the company to refund. The only ***** is the long delay and whether that is unreasonable given the present circumstances.

Perhaps a charm offensive might work, or the threat of exposing the companies performance on social media.

Prof
They might be making it in the old Imperial Typewriter works in Leicester now that Booho orders have reduced. 😂

 

[Buckman]

Even for custom made goods you are covered by CRA 2015 however the definition of "reasonable" is very vague. I still suggest that you contact the bank regarding using a debit card for payment as the Debit card is covered under the Banking Code.

 

[Damian]

Just to try and bring some hope to the situation, back in February I had to return my pressure cooker to Tower due to a safety recall, and was promised a new unit within a month.
That timescale went and no pressure cooker and I was told that it was because they are made in Wuhan and by that time the virus had happened so nothing was moving, in or out.
I got my new pressure cooker back last week. so it may be true what the people have said.

 

[otherclive]

Just to try and bring some hope to the situation, back in February I had to return my pressure cooker to Tower due to a safety recall, and was promised a new unit within a month.
That timescale went and no pressure cooker and I was told that it was because they are made in Wuhan and by that time the virus had happened so nothing was moving, in or out.
I got my new pressure cooker back last week. so it may be true what the people have said.

Same here. It was via this Forum that we learnt that the pressure cookers were being recalled. Tower kept us informed on the status of the replacements which actually arrived in the country some while back, but were not released to customers until the various certificates of compliance were available. Must say the replacement isa big improvement on the old one, how that ever passed development is beyond me. It was clear that the design paid more attention to form over function.

 

[ProfJohnL]

h
Even for custom made goods you are covered by CRA 2015 however the definition of "reasonable" is very vague. I still suggest that you contact the bank regarding using a debit card for payment as the Debit card is covered under the Banking Code.

The CRA is of course still applicable, but it hinges on failure to meet contractual requirements.

So what CRA elements have been breeched?

The service started when the measurements were taken. This means the goods are bespoke, and that changes the rights to cancel under distance selling regulations.

The customer was made aware there may be international transportation involved, which meant the time scale was not definitive . Coupled to the unprecedented effects of the C-19 pandemic international business has been badly affected, which invariably means lead times will increase.

The goods are not in the hands of the customer so no assessment can be made regarding conforming to agreed description, fitness for purpose or durability.

As far as I can see, there have been no unreasonable terms in the contract and so far the contract has been honoured, so the only thing is whether the company has acted unreasonably with regards time scales, and that is difficult for us to assess.

There is nothing to say the suit when it arrives may not be perfect. But by way of contrast my son in law had a suit made in under a day whilst he had a stop over in Hong Kong, and I think it only cost him about £60 five years ago.

It makes you wonder if Parksy might have been better spending the money on a return airline ticket to Asia ......

 

[Thingy]

This is being examined from a number of angles, but to highlight what Parksy said at the start of this,

I'm slightly sceptical because some of the less than flattering comments that I've read mentioned that this is a regular excuse used by this company.

This and the fact that the director makes promises of contact that he doesn't keep. Delays, and other problems due to Covid are reasonable, however it doesn't excuse the lack of communication from the company and their responsibility to the customer. Were this a reputable firm, it would be reasonable to expect communication as soon as they knew their was a problem.

Parksy, I would suggest two things to add to the experience cupboard.............

Always read reviews before you buy
If you buy a bespoke suit from a middleman, and it turns up not fitting properly, where does it go to be corrected?

Also, whenever I buy online, Google Maps is invaluable. I always check the address of the property to see what I am dealing with.

 

[Parksy]

Thanks for the helpful advice guys.
I understand that delivery schedules from overseas may be affected, but how long is too long?
It's obviously an impossible question to answer, but according to some social media comments that I've seen since paying for the clothing, these people have got form for non delivery.
I've seen horror stories of wedding suit orders not being delivered, but there have also been glowing reports full of praise for the finished goods.
I'm prepared to allow extra time for delivery due to Covid, but the company website advertises a cutting and stitching time of 8 weeks with a strong recommendation that wedding suits are ordered 12 weeks prior to the date that they are required.
I've been waiting for 17 weeks since I paid for the clothing, so I'm wondering at what point I should start to put some real pressure on?
I'm a patient man, but I don't want to be kept waiting indefinitely.

 

[Raywood]

I think the small claims procedure is probably premature at the moment. You do need to try and ascertain what the situation is by contacting the company if you can. E mail and give them 14 days to answer and deliver or give you an acceptable firm date for this to happen. If you get no reply, or an unsatisfactory one see if the bank can snatch back the money for you.
If this does not work then possibly the Small Claims Court will work but, there is no guarantee. From what you say the company may have no real assets and could leave you with a worthless judgement. I would check this out as far as you can before taking any action. Look on Google to see if this might be a problem.
I am afraid in the modern world a credit card is the way to go. You do not have to use the credit facility or be a regular user, just use it for purchases over £100 and you will get the protection offered by the Consumer Credit Act. If companies do not take them, that in itself should ring alarm bells, as it can show financial instability or problems that mean a company has not got the credit level needed. Possibly asking if they take credit cards will help even if you do not have one.

 

[Buckman]

We very recently had an order for custom made goods that were coming from China althouhg only a fraction of the price you are paying. When the time and went for delivery I contacted the company and told them to cancel as the date had passed for delivery.
They replied due to Covid etc delay however I pointed out that the contract did not allow for pandemic and we were in the right to cancel. About 4 days later the goods arrived. Many companies are using the pandemic as an excuse for late delivery.
Contact your bank as soon as possible mentioning Code of Practice after you have read up on it. https://www.bcsb.co.uk/key-points-of-the-code/

 

[Thingy]

Not directly related to this but its not just manufacturers coming up with excuses. A month ago, we wanted to open a savings account for our youngest grandchild as we had done so for our oldest. We picked the bank with the highest interest, 4% at the time, and went online to open it. Their website was having trouble submitting documents, so I had to contact customer services. They said they would assign somebody to help us open the account, and it was 27 days before we had any contact at all, despite us already having an account with them. By then we had given up on them and used Barclays instead. Surprised to find they had paid £75 into our account as compensation for the delay, but never said they were doing so. Good old communication doesn't exist anymore.

 

[otherclive]

Not directly related to this but its not just manufacturers coming up with excuses. A month ago, we wanted to open a savings account for our youngest grandchild as we had done so for our oldest. We picked the bank with the highest interest, 4% at the time, and went online to open it. Their website was having trouble submitting documents, so I had to contact customer services. They said they would assign somebody to help us open the account, and it was 27 days before we had any contact at all, despite us already having an account with them. By then we had given up on them and used Barclays instead. Surprised to find they had paid £75 into our account as compensation for the delay, but never said they were doing so. Good old communication doesn't exist anymore.

Similarly I had to complain to HMRC that they did not send me a self assessment short tax return. I wrote twice, and phoned twice and the two lots of totally incorrect forms arrived. When I rang third time the chap told me he was working from home so could not order the form for me, and he would switch me through to an office based person. The line went dead. So i made a formal complaint which wasn't answered in the 15 working day period. Eventually a very apologetic lady rang me and confirmed that they would be sending me the forms but it could take three weeks or so, but they would extend my submission date well into 2021. The forms still haven't arrived, so Ive submitted a long version instead. But thank you all Forum tax payers for the compensation cheque that I have received from HMRC dishing out your hard earned cash

 

[ProfJohnL]

When you consider the UK was in near total lockdown for 3 months, and other countries were also in lockdown for varying periods and starting on different dates, who knows what the realistic situation was for this company and its subcontractors.

Given the uncertainties generated by C-19, 15 weeks when it was suggested (not guaranteed) 8 to 12 weeks would be needed whilst unfortunate it does not seem excessive to me in these extraordinary circumstances.

Whilst I can see there may be justifiable reasons for the delays, the lack of communication does seem strange, and some might see it as suspicious.

I advise upping the level of communication with the company to try and get a clearer picture of when delivery might take place, or as Raywood has suggested try and set a delivery date, which if its missed then gives you criteria that defined breech of contract.

 

[ProfJohnL]

We very recently had an order for custom made goods that were coming from China althouhg only a fraction of the price you are paying. When the time and went for delivery I contacted the company and told them to cancel as the date had passed for delivery.
They replied due to Covid etc delay however I pointed out that the contract did not allow for pandemic and we were in the right to cancel. About 4 days later the goods arrived. Many companies are using the pandemic as an excuse for late delivery.
Contact your bank as soon as possible mentioning Code of Practice after you have read up on it. https://www.bcsb.co.uk/key-points-of-the-code/

I find it very strange that you would agree to order from China given your comments in other threads.

But having done so, it is always something of a lottery when it comes to ordering from abroad, as you have no idea if your shipment will be held for inspection by Customs and Excise which can add several days to a cross boarder delivery.

Given the story you tell it seems to me the goods must have been in transit, and whether it was for Covid or Customs it was probably delayed with no fault of the supplier.

Without being able to see the specific order documentation and T&C's we cannot know if your assertion about no slippage being allowed due to a pandemic was correct, but given the extraordinary circumstances it of C-19 it might have been expected.

What you don't tell us is how the situation was resolved, as you did apparently receive the goods, but did you get your money back also? and have you returned the goods?

 

[Damian]

strong recommendation that wedding suits are ordered 12 weeks prior to the date

Simple,,,dont get married, continue living in sin and get your money back !!!

 

[Parksy]

I've already waited for the full 12 weeks which is a suggested lead time for busy periods plus an extra six weeks on top, and the only communication between them and me was instigated by me.
Their cutting and stitching times are shown in my screenshot from their website below.
I'll try to keep the communication between them and me going, but I still feel that they ought to be keeping in touch with me, not the other way round every time.
In the meantime I'll be in touch with the bank and I'll write to the tailoring company to insist on a mutually agreed firm delivery date.

 

[Parksy]

Simple,,,dont get married, continue living in sin and get your money back !!!

We've been together for 21 years and engaged for the past 20 years, but we have no plans to marry.
If it ain't broke......

 

[ProfJohnL]

I've already waited for the full 12 weeks which is a suggested lead time for busy periods plus an extra six weeks on top, and the only communication between them and me was instigated by me.
Their cutting and stitching times are shown in my screenshot from their website below.
I'll try to keep the communication between them and me going, but I still feel that they ought to be keeping in touch with me, not the other way round every time.
In the meantime I'll be in touch with the bank and I'll write to the tailoring company to insist on a mutually agreed firm delivery date.
View attachment 859

The weasel word "plus" in the last point.

 

[Buckman]

I find it very strange that you would agree to order from China given your comments in other threads.

But having done so, it is always something of a lottery when it comes to ordering from abroad, as you have no idea if your shipment will be held for inspection by Customs and Excise which can add several days to a cross boarder delivery.

Given the story you tell it seems to me the goods must have been in transit, and whether it was for Covid or Customs it was probably delayed with no fault of the supplier.

Without being able to see the specific order documentation and T&C's we cannot know if your assertion about no slippage being allowed due to a pandemic was correct, but given the extraordinary circumstances it of C-19 it might have been expected.

What you don't tell us is how the situation was resolved, as you did apparently receive the goods, but did you get your money back also? and have you returned the goods?

The site was recommended by Which Consumer magazine and the website was a UK site. If I had known the goods were coming from China I would not have bothered.
After I had paid it came up with the message that goods would be coming from Hong Kong and twould take 3 weeks. There was no way that I could cancel. I have since raised a complaint with Which.
Another good reason to try and avoid goods from China. As it turned out the one unit did not fit properly, but we cannot return it. Not worth the hassle and cost as they were only a tiny fraction of the price paid by Parksy.

 

[Thingy]

Think on the bright side Parksy, as you get older, you shrink. At this rate it wont fit anyway, so try Toolstation, they have some lovely orange boiler suits, one size fits all.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Think on the bright side Parksy, as you get older, you shrink. At this rate it wont fit anyway, so try Toolstation, they have some lovely orange boiler suits, one size fits all.

Guantanamo Bay gives them away! 😎