Using customers for Quality Control

[NickinFrance]

From reading posts on this & other web forums, it would appear that almost no-one receives a new perfect caravan.

It is often mentioned that the buyers contract is with the seller, not the manufacturer, which makes me believe that manufacturers don't bother with Quality Control, just leave it to the customer to find the faults & the seller to fix them.

Discuss

 

[UKHunk]

How very right you are Nick,Been caravanning myself for 22 years now all with second hand vans.Last January decieded to buy Brand new one,That was my first mistake,ive had resealing on the rear window and around the toilet cassette area,Four internal water leaks,buckled chest top and also the table,Blew up my charger on my first weekend out,Now i need a new front window as they are so weak that the D/G touch each other while traveling causing white marks on the inside of the window,Been in for heating problems which i still have at present although the dealer says not,They think that you Stupid,And to top it all after i travelled 180 miles to get my window fixed,they checked the window to be put on and informed me it was damaged,so now its another day off work and 180 miles of travel.Compensation is no ways been to QC and back to the dealer and one promises one thing and the other promises another.To be honest it is a crap dealer and ive learnet you dont no help in this world and that is sad.Would i buy a new Sprite again,NO NO NO.All this activity has now put me off caravanning and ifit got nicked i wouldnt care as this has been going on 16 months now, Regards Ed

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Eddie and Nick,

I have long been critical of the lack of quality control that caravan manufacturers appear to exercise.

The opening post is largely correct, that the manufactures rely on dealers and end users to snag the final issues.

I am not suggesting that manufactures don't try to catch all the bugs, but there are too many reports here and on other forums that clearly demonstrate that faults do get through to the end user, and that to a large extent the situation is allowed to continue.

Having worked in QA and advised a number of companies (not directly caravan related) on matters relating to ISO 9001, a costs based study revealed that for every fault that got through to end users, it cost between 5 and 10 times as much to put right than if it had been caught and sorted in the plant.

It was also found that if a problem was identified and the design of either the part could be changed or the manufacturing/assembly process could be fool proofed the cost fell even more dramatically.

In one company, the wrong sized washer was used on the earth bonding stud, which meant the the product could become unprotected. The cost of the washer - fractions of pence, but the cost to repair the unit when installed was between

 

[Lutz]

It doesn't say much for the dealer as the link between the manufacturer and the customer. Surely he should be correcting any faults that slip through during a PDI before passing the product on to the customer. But it seems that both dealer and manufacturer aren't doing their homework properly.

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Having worked for most of my working life as an electro- mechanical engineer for a major American based company, Quality was always up there with costs and efficiency.

The problems facing most potential buyers with regards the caravan industry is the mass of unregulated dealers.

Not being one to mix my words, as others will know from this forum, nothing will change until there is consistent pressure from the relevant media involved in testing and publicizing various manufacturers and the industry at large.

I have found it very hard to find totally unbiased reports and even some of the caravan and camping clubs seem to rely on the industry to finance part of their operation.

Unfortunately individual owners have very little power when it comes to problems, as has been widely reported SOGA is basically ignored and the traditionally conservative owner is reluctant to pursue aggressive dealers. Caravans and motorhomes are largely a one off purchase and once the transaction has gone through you are generally stuck.

I suppose a 'tripadvisor ' approach will eventually take over as a younger generation eventually emerge, this has already been seen in a number of retail situations and the travel/leisure industry.

Makes a change from my usual moan...best regards Andrew

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Andrew,

I tend to agree you, and, SoGA is largely ignored, but I suspect because of ignorance on the part of the end user.

Quite frequently when a customer has a problem (and I refer to the wider high street retailing sector here), the initial response from many retailers is 'nothing I can do'. But as soon as the customer mentions SoGA most retailers change their tune. this shows the trade do know about it but choose to keep it quiet.

It suits the retail trade to keep quiet about SoGA in the hope that the ignorance and general reticence of the general public to complain will minimise their costs.

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Hi John.........I think this is the case, unfortunately some dealers are also ignoring Soga claims and hoping that customers will give up.

I recently received an email, through our window problem site, from a pensioner, who had followed all the procedures, to no avail and was left with taking the company, (a reputable south west dealer) to the small claims court, only then did the dealer act on his original claim.

As Nick states at the beginning of this topic, using customers for quality control, in an indirect sought of way.

I fully understand that not all quality problems are the dealers fault and that some claims are at the very least heavy use or owner attributable, but there does seem to be a pattern of some dealers being on the defensive and not pro-active whatever the problem.

Again I must state that we have also recived some really good dealer responses only to be let down by no back up from the manufacturers. In the Dealers defense, they are running on tight margins with large overheads, but are left almost entirely on their own to fight these quality issues.

Some regulation would help here.......

 

[Lutz]

The contract is still between you and the dealer, not the manufacturer. It is therefore the dealer's responsibility to put things right before delivery to the customer. If anyone is to complain about poor quality control on the part of the manufacturer it should be the dealer.

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Hi..entirely agree, but this is not happening,dealers are being let down by some manufacturers who really are living in 1960's Brtish leyland world.

 

[NickinFrance]

Thanks everyone for your comments but surly the SOGA & Dealer PDIs' shouldn't need to be mentioned if the manufacturers 'did it right, first time'.

We bought our current caravan second hand because we were exporting it & knew it would be impracticable to bring a new one back to the UK for any snagging issues.

In general it's a good van but there are odd things, like trim that doesn't quite fit that are annoying but what is more annoying is that the assembler must have known that it didn't fit but still went ahead & fitted it, then the inspector (if such a person exists in the caravan industry) didn't notice it. or more likely decided to 'let it go & let the dealer sort it'.

I agree that the dealer should have picked it up on the PDI but they shouldn't have to inspect every nut, bolt, screw & piece of trim.

I've no idea if the original owner did take our van back for any remedial work but complaining about bits of trim that 'don't quite fit' would have, rightly, branded him 'a bl**dy nuisance', so probably wouldn't even have mentioned it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Nick,

You have got it absolutely right.

The dealer should only have to check its clean and tidy and remove any transit protection materials.

If dealers stood up for their rights, and rejected faulty caravans back to the manufacturers, the manufactures would begin to recognise the scale of the difficulties their antiquated traditions systems causes. - but I suspect the the manufactures have written certain PDI duties into the dealership agreements.

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Well there seems to be a fair amount of agreement on this one...I wonder if any of the dealers who read these forums care to comment and give us their side of the story.

 

[NickinFrance]

One or two have compared the present day caravan industry to the British car industry of old, I don't think they can be compared because:

There were overseas manufacturers who had the capacity & will to import their products into the UK at a competitive price.

The car press wasn't so reliant on the advertising from any one manufacturer as the caravan press seems to be, so could criticize bad products.

As an aside & to expand upon John L's comment above, I attended a talk by the QA Director of a company I worked for who said that the cost of finding a faulty component multiplied by at least a factor of 10 at each stage of production & many times that figure when it got into the customers possession.

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Hi Nick .........totally agree.....unfortunately a number of the major faults are design rather than defective components....most caravans now fit a proven chassis, but the quirky hand build status does not lend itself to consistant quality.its only as good as the tradesman or operative who built it.

 

[sunnybunny]

Hi all, bought a new Sterling twinaxle

 

[sunnybunny]

Hi all, bought a new Sterling twinaxle

 

[NickinFrance]

Thanks Colin, It would appear that my title was wrong, manufacturers use the dealers for their Quality Control.

Unfortunately because they have the disincentive of loosing cashflow, they are probably not the best ones to do the QC.

Can anything be read into the fact that no manufacturer, dealer or magazine has commented on this thread ?

 

[ProfJohnL]

This thread is in danger of becoming totally negative, and perhaps I'm partly to blame for that. But the industry cannot deny there are quality related problems and that too many issues do find their way through to the end users.

But I am quite sure the majority if not all manufactures would love to have fault free products reaching their customers. They must be aware of how much warranty and guarantee claims are costing them, and any business worth their salt would like to reduce their after sales liabilities.

There must be many reasons why they continue to have issues.

 

[george_374481958]

Hi all,I have been watching this thread and have been really impressed with the comments. Surely someone from the trade will give us the benefit of a reply. No particular dealer or manufacture has been criticized and it woud be very helpful to hear their side of the story.

A really good forum

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello George,

It is very uncommon for a manufacture to openly discuss issues like this on a general public forum.

I am in no way suggesting there is a cartel inaction here, but no manufacture will want to be the first to bare all on this topic.

Perhaps a manufacture would like to prove me wrong? .

 

[Dustydog]

I think there is a glimmer of hope.

On "Swift Talk" the Hartel door lock reared its head. Swift contacted Hartel who were made to post an explanation why their locks keep failing.

So an apology and explanation on a public forum is positive but as we all know it's a long way to the moon.

Cheers

Dustdyog

 

[Andrew_374383565]

I think this particular topic has highlighted some of the issues which dog the Caravan and Motorhome industry.

The typical owner is mid-life, to retired, trying to re-kindle some long lost adventure. Camping inspires a rugged yet patient approach and as such complaint, is as alien as calling Scotland part of England, or a caravan window is actually double glazed.

In this country the consumer is gradually gaining in confidence and the younger generation are far more clued up on information technology.

We have already seen the impact made by price comparison sites.

It is unfortunate that dealers and manufactures, have not so far, grasped the opportunity to answer some of the issues within this thread.

Also some of the more lively contributors to this forum, must be on holiday, because they are strangely absent.

More participation in this kind of discussion, can only have a positive influence, on what after all, is a very expensive hobby, fuelled on the promise of quality products and the life savings of a good number of pensioners and others.

Thankyou to Nick, John L, Colin, George,Eddie, Lutz and Dusty Dog.

 

[george_374481958]

They keep coming,just read the Bailey Pegasus 546 saga,posted today

 

[HenryB1]

I think we need to remember that caravans are built in very small numbers compared to cars and use many different individual items from different suppliers in a multitude of layouts. I have caravanned for the last 40 years starting with a hired Robin towed by and Austin Cambridge 1995 automatic estate, 3 speed gearbox, via Sprite Alpine with cold water and foot pump, gas lights. Our last 4 vans have been Bailey, Abbey, Abbey and now a Bailey Pegasus 524. Out of these vans the last Abbey was the Friday afternoon van. 20 plus faults over its 5 years with us. Damp in the rear offside corner plus blown windows (dealers service comments), plus other faults decided us to change back to Bailey. So far after 3 weeks on road and 4 sites, no problems. Only time will tell, but I like the idea of a ten year damp waranty.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Henry,

I cannot agree with the point you make that tries to break the comparison with the car industry.

It is true that the scale of production numbers are different, but that does not prevent the manufacture from employing the same Quality Assurance principals that have become so highly developed in the car industry through QS 9000, Six Sigma and other initiatives.

I have had a wide variety of clients who have called on my services to help implement or maintain an accreditation to the ISO9000 series of business models. Without exception they all found that by having a properly structured business with a new product introduction programme, with good detail planning, the end production or product had enhanced quality criteria, better longevity, and lower manufacturing costs.

There is nothing preventing the caravan manufacturers from adopting to proven elements of these systems, Joint development of subsystems with the supplier, proper and full failure mode and effect analysis of design and processes, effective process planning to help to idiot proof production process, manage procurement with Kan Ban and JIT, add training to build skills.

All though this might seem to front end load the NPD process, the benefits are fewer problems down the line and better satisfied customers.

It needs a significant degree of foresight by the company's directors and a real commitment to lead the necessary changes from the front. But I have seen companies make some quite staggering turn around in their fortunes simply by becoming better and more responsive than their competition.