Volvo EV Progress

[Dustydog]

Yesterday my son drove his new Volvo XC40 all electric from near Cirencester to just south of Harrogate. The following is his assessment of the journey . The stop at Nottingham was circa 10 minutes.

The car decides how much charge it needs to complete the programmed journey apparently “smartly” allowing for your usage of power since start of the trip. Note he had the air con full on .

“It said 3% battery on arrival to the Tesla chargers. Got here with 15% battery! All about driving style! Had air con on the whole way. Car tells me to charge to 59% and that will get me home on 21%.”

How clever is that I thought? He rarely charges over 80% capacity. Takes ages to complete the last 20%.
I now understand there are chargers and there are chargers! He never uses motorway ones. Either broken, in use and very expensive. The Tesla network is favourite but does mean a few minutes detour.

Am I persuaded ? In part yes with quite a few riders.

My Treg will tow my TA from Lindisfarne to Wiltshire with full aircon without a refill and still 50 miles to spare. It has an onboard computer that tells me my current mpg , range in miles , etc.It’s still diesel for me but if I no longer caravanned and the prices were competitive who knows?

I suggest when everyone catches up with Tesla’s charging philosophy the attraction of EV will be greater.
I remain sceptical about all the Hybrids .But until every home is fitted with a decent fast charger the transition is likely to take a lot longer than many suggest. The current domestic 7kw chargers are really over nighters.

Overall , as a sceptic here in 2024 I’d say Volvo have done very well. Or is the aforethought of Tesla’s infrastructure the winner🤔

 

[Tobes]

Hi Dusty,

Good to hear you had a great experience with your son's car. This is the same system, in my Polestar - it's google maps tightly integrated with the car systems. I can confirm, it's a super system and works brilliantly. I was visiting my parents this week just gone, and returned from their house near Caylus in Tarn et Garrone in the south of France on Saturday - the busiest travel day of the year). The system worked brilliantly for me there too, and I covered the 730 odd miles with just 4 stops;
1) Aire de Boismandé Est (north of Limoges) (Ionity - expensive but convenient, breakfast in the Paul coffee shop)
2) Artenay (north of Orleans) (a huge 28 bay charger next to an Intermarche where I shopped while it charged)
3) Rouen (in a Sofitel carpark - a coffee was consumer)
4) The channel tunnel lounge area (supper consumed while waiting for my train).

Total charging cost, about €85 on the mortorway, plus the roughly €15 at their house - so about €100 all in. All at motorway / autoroute speed limit with aircon at a comfortable 19C (it was 28C outside!).

I didn't wait for a bay once, though on one occasion (Rouen) I took the last available bay of 12. Another freed up before I had finished plugging in.

It was a _long_ drive, and while I would be happy to do it again (the car does a lot of the driving for me), I would not want to do it without the stops. While one may see the stops to charge as enforced by the car, in reality I would have to stop anyway in order to use the loo, and take some time to stretch and have a drink.

 

[otherclive]

Yesterday my son drove his new Volvo XC40 all electric from near Cirencester to just south of Harrogate. The following is his assessment of the journey . The stop at Nottingham was circa 10 minutes.

The car decides how much charge it needs to complete the programmed journey apparently “smartly” allowing for your usage of power since start of the trip. Note he had the air con full on .

“It said 3% battery on arrival to the Tesla chargers. Got here with 15% battery! All about driving style! Had air con on the whole way. Car tells me to charge to 59% and that will get me home on 21%.”

How clever is that I thought? He rarely charges over 80% capacity. Takes ages to complete the last 20%.
I now understand there are chargers and there are chargers! He never uses motorway ones. Either broken, in use and very expensive. The Tesla network is favourite but does mean a few minutes detour.

Am I persuaded ? In part yes with quite a few riders.

My Treg will tow my TA from Lindisfarne to Wiltshire with full aircon without a refill and still 50 miles to spare. It has an onboard computer that tells me my current mpg , range in miles , etc.It’s still diesel for me but if I no longer caravanned and the prices were competitive who knows?

I suggest when everyone catches up with Tesla’s charging philosophy the attraction of EV will be greater.
I remain sceptical about all the Hybrids .But until every home is fitted with a decent fast charger the transition is likely to take a lot longer than many suggest. The current domestic 7kw chargers are really over nighters.

Overall , as a sceptic here in 2024 I’d say Volvo have done very well. Or is the aforethought of Tesla’s infrastructure the winner🤔

Almost ( but not completely) a Damascene Moment. A useful update thank you.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...But until every home is fitted with a decent fast charger the transition is likely to take a lot longer than many suggest. The current domestic 7kw chargers are really over nighters.
....

I seriously doubt if any normal domestic properties will ever have a "fast charger" installed, becasue the incoming cable from the street will limit the maximum current available. Typically the most powerful charger a domestic property can have is 7kW (single Phase 230V) or 22kW (Three phase 415V). These are all AC systems

"Fast chargers (i.e over 22kW) are usually DC systems and will run at 400 or 800 Volts. It would be difficult for a domestic property owner to justify the cost of having a high voltage DC fast charger installed.

Charging at home was always considered to be a slower process which utilises low cost tariff's often overnight. There is a benefit, the slower charge rate is generally kinder to the batteries.

The other long term aim of having a long duration connection to the vehicle is the possibility of the car battery acting being able to support the grid at high demand times. This needs the vehicle ( and the home connection ) to be configured to have vehicle to grid ( or vehicle to load) protocols. An increasing number of new EV's are being given this capability.

I haven't yet researched what is available, but with home battery systems (often coupled to solar PV) there may be a possibility an EV could be charged at a greater rate from the home storage battery.

 

[Tobes]

I seriously doubt if any normal domestic properties will ever have a "fast charger" installed, becasue the incoming cable from the street will limit the maximum current available. Typically the most powerful charger a domestic property can have is 7kW (single Phase 230V) or 22kW (Three phase 415V). These are all AC systems

"Fast chargers (i.e over 22kW) are usually DC systems and will run at 400 or 800 Volts. It would be difficult for a domestic property owner to justify the cost of having a high voltage DC fast charger installed.

Charging at home was always considered to be a slower process which utilises low cost tariff's often overnight. There is a benefit, the slower charge rate is generally kinder to the batteries.

The other long term aim of having a long duration connection to the vehicle is the possibility of the car battery acting being able to support the grid at high demand times. This needs the vehicle ( and the home connection ) to be configured to have vehicle to grid ( or vehicle to load) protocols. An increasing number of new EV's are being given this capability.

I haven't yet researched what is available, but with home battery systems (often coupled to solar PV) there may be a possibility an EV could be charged at a greater rate from the home storage battery.

I am fortunate enough to have solar and home batteries along with the EVs. As you say, while there is no DC charging facility at home charging will be limited to the cars AC capability (usually 7, 11 or 22Kw) and the AC limit and number of phases at home.

While I can see how draining the house batteries into the car might seem like a good occasional use, it would still be limited by whatever charger tech was installed to support the car (and DC charging is _very_ expensive equipment) for limited gain. My solar can deliver about 2kW maximum, and my home batteries about 6kW max with around 16kWh of storage total.

The need for rapid or ultra-rapid charging at home though is minimal. In the 3 years of having my car, I think there has been perhaps one occasion when I have _had_ to go and use a local rapid charger to help me with an additional immediate journey. The rest of the time, using the overnight charge during the off peak window to give me an additional 120 or so miles of range has been absolutely acceptable. A full charge (0 to 100) on my car would take about 11hours on my home charger, so getting home at 8PM totally empty, and leaving at 7AM for a >200 mile drive is totally possible. But it never happens!

 

[borderbilly]

Don't trust anything a computer says, it's just a rough guide.

 

[Dustydog]

I seriously doubt if any normal domestic properties will ever have a "fast charger" installed,

I wonder ? Within 8 miles of me there are plans in hand to build 4000 new houses. Assuming the Eco date remains at 2050 why don’t the Planners and builders install 3 phase at the outset? The actual costs and design are not much greater and I am told far more reliable than single phase.

At the moment we are reliant on the Tesla infrastructure and home methods like my son and Tobes have.
I suggest the extra cost to a new build would soon be recovered . Unlike most of Europe we still use ring mains domestically. A throw over from post WW2 to save copper! Maybe it is time to invest properly and develop the EV infrastructure properly.

 

[otherclive]

Don't trust anything a computer says, it's just a rough guide.

Better not get in an airplane then, or even your car might be a step too far.

 

[Buckman]

I wonder ? Within 8 miles of me there are plans in hand to build 4000 new houses. Assuming the Eco date remains at 2050 why don’t the Planners and builders install 3 phase at the outset? The actual costs and design are not much greater and I am told far more reliable than single phase.

Would that require two circuits, one for normal 240 and the other for 3 phase 450v? I am aware that you can spur off a 3 phase for domestic as many CLs do just that, but I am not sure of costs for two supplies?

 

[GaryB]

I wonder ? Within 8 miles of me there are plans in hand to build 4000 new houses. Assuming the Eco date remains at 2050 why don’t the Planners and builders install 3 phase at the outset? The actual costs and design are not much greater and I am told far more reliable than single phase.

It's happening already, tomorrow I am training 5 installers from a contractor installing 3 phase domestic cutouts in the National Grid area. Doing it as a retro-fit into existing properties is difficult and often cost prohibitive as the feed into the road will be undersized. The charging infrastructure is (very) slowly improving, but (as I have said before) it really does need some input from the trailer/caravan industry to raise awareness of the needs of those that tow with passenger EV's.

 

[Tobes]

I wonder ? Within 8 miles of me there are plans in hand to build 4000 new houses. Assuming the Eco date remains at 2050 why don’t the Planners and builders install 3 phase at the outset? The actual costs and design are not much greater and I am told far more reliable than single phase.

At the moment we are reliant on the Tesla infrastructure and home methods like my son and Tobes have.
I suggest the extra cost to a new build would soon be recovered . Unlike most of Europe we still use ring mains domestically. A throw over from post WW2 to save copper! Maybe it is time to invest properly and develop the EV infrastructure properly.

There is an order of magnitude difference between an ultra-rapid charger and a fast charger.

Pretty much any home can have a 7.2kW fast charger. With 3 phase (as you say) up to 22kW can be achieved (if the car can accept it - mine tops out at 11kW, my wife and youngest at 7.2, my eldest at 22kW).

A rapid DC charger can be anything from 25kW to 400kW, depending on the charger and available grid infrastructure. Street cabling and transformers are just not cut out for that kind of load.

Interestingly, in France I came across a new charger brand named IE Charge. They have a growing fleet of 160kW and 350kW charges that are seemingly in the middle of nowhere - often a field on a minor road closish to an Autoroute junction. They are very cheap - just €0.28 per kWh. When looking at google maps, they are all near an existing electricity grid station. Low install costs for the grid, gives low overheads and cheap electricity?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I wonder ? Within 8 miles of me there are plans in hand to build 4000 new houses. Assuming the Eco date remains at 2050 why don’t the Planners and builders install 3 phase at the outset? The actual costs and design are not much greater and I am told far more reliable than single phase.

At the moment we are reliant on the Tesla infrastructure and home methods like my son and Tobes have.
I suggest the extra cost to a new build would soon be recovered . Unlike most of Europe we still use ring mains domestically. A throw over from post WW2 to save copper! Maybe it is time to invest properly and develop the EV infrastructure properly.

I agree it would be sensible to ensure that new homes with off street parking or dedicated spaces for parking were prepared for EV charging., but equally I also think they should be prepared for Solar PV.

But in practice very few EV owners would make best use of a fast charging system at home, so the equipment would be left idle for more time that its used in anger.

I think a more sensible approach might be to lay down legislation that ensures each new property can support 11kW single phase charging. But in addition there should be a formula that also ensures some high speed charging facilities are also included in the design of an estate.

A similar approach could be used to provide macro scale energy storage battery systems servicing 10 to 20 dwellings to support the grid at periods of high demand.

 

[Dustydog]

Thankyou Prof.
I should have said in my earlier post the new Legislation for EV chargers at new homes is already in place. I was merely saying why not go the whole hog with 3 phase?

New Homes to be fitted with EV Chargers | YESSS Electrical

The new EV charger law could save you hundreds of pounds on EV charging. Read more about the new legislation here.

www.yesss.co.uk

 

[Buckman]

The biggest problem is of course that EV may not be the way forward in the future if a better alternative is found which makes all the expensive charging stations redundant. After all you do not see fossil fuel pumps installed at homes probably for the same reason.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The biggest problem is of course that EV may not be the way forward in the future if a better alternative is found which makes all the expensive charging stations redundant. After all you do not see fossil fuel pumps installed at homes probably for the same reason.

EV's will be with us for the foreseeable future, and like it or not, the necessary infrastructure needs to be set up to allow all the users to be able to use them.

If we delay creating the infrastructure on the basis a better alternative "might" be coming life would stop. We have to be able to live now to be around for the future.

It's highly likely that any future energy system will also need extensive and expensive infrastructure remodeling to enable it to be used.

 

[otherclive]

The biggest problem is of course that EV may not be the way forward in the future if a better alternative is found which makes all the expensive charging stations redundant. After all you do not see fossil fuel pumps installed at homes probably for the same reason.

I suppose that all of the global fossil fuel infrastructure like rigs, tankers, refineries, fuel tankers cane fuel stations that will be redundant aren't considered in your hypothesis.

 

[Buckman]

EV's will be with us for the foreseeable future, and like it or not, the necessary infrastructure needs to be set up to allow all the users to be able to use them.

If we delay creating the infrastructure on the basis a better alternative "might" be coming life would stop. We have to be able to live now to be around for the future.

It's highly likely that any future energy system will also need extensive and expensive infrastructure remodeling to enable it to be used.

Glad to know your crysatl ball is working so well as none of us know what the future holds considering technology advances are made every day.

I suppose that all of the global fossil fuel infrastructure like rigs, tankers, refineries, fuel tankers cane fuel stations that will be redundant aren't considered in your hypothesis.

Rather weird statement that makes zero sense????????

 

[Dustydog]

Since my son got his EV I’ve been watching the charging infrastructure progress. BP and Shell have been outstanding in the installation of the high power chargers , some 150 kw.

EV charging statistics 2024 - Zapmap

Tracking the growth in charging points across the UK

www.zap-map.com

However I still remain sceptical and cannot accept abandonment of Fossil fuels . Tyres alone need 9 gallons of oil in the making.

I expect by 2050 there will be other , yet undiscovered fuel sources , overtaking oil and EV. Nothing is cast in stone

 

[otherclive]

Since my son got his EV I’ve been watching the charging infrastructure progress. BP and Shell have been outstanding in the installation of the high power chargers , some 150 kw.

EV charging statistics 2024 - Zapmap

Tracking the growth in charging points across the UK

www.zap-map.com

However I still remain sceptical and cannot accept abandonment of Fossil fuels . Tyres alone need 9 gallons of oil in the making.

I expect by 2050 there will be other , yet undiscovered fuel sources , overtaking oil and EV. Nothing is cast in stone

No one has said that the requirements for oil will disappear, but whilst tyres may need 9 gallons of oil in the making, that oil isn’t burnt and doesn’t contribute to global warming assuming the 9 gallons is all converted to tyres and they are not burnt at the end of life. 😱

 

[otherclive]

Glad to know your crysatl ball is working so well as none of us know what the future holds considering technology advances are made every day.

Rather weird statement that makes zero sense????????

Well your post says “ make all the charging stations redundant” when something comes along to replace EVs. My post merely reflects on thee facts that as EV usage increases, and other things are electrified, as more renewable energy comes on line, it’s obvious that there will be redundant infrastructure in the fossil fuel chain. No different to when ICE displaced horse drawn transport, and gave the opportunity for people to then live in what are now nice mews houses. ( less falcons) 😂

 

[Tobes]

The biggest problem is of course that EV may not be the way forward in the future if a better alternative is found which makes all the expensive charging stations redundant. After all you do not see fossil fuel pumps installed at homes probably for the same reason.

The fundamental difference between a home charger and a home petrol fuel pump is the existing distribution network to homes. One already exists for electricity, but does not for petrol.
An EV (from a charging perspective) is just a big electrical appliance. It is identical to any other load on the home meter. A petrol car is not.

What is clear is that electricity as an energy transport medium is absolutely 100% guaranteed to stay. The type of generation may change (fossil -> renewable -> something else (maybe fusion one day)), and the location of generation will change (few large centralised fossil plants -> many smaller distributed sources (solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, hydro)). But the use of electricity to power the plethora of items round our homes and lives is going to far outlive wet (or solid, or gas) fossil fuel.

So the question becomes this; if our primary energy supply is renewable (or nuclear of some form) electricity, what is the most efficient way to distribute and consume it?

Direct charging and batteries currently (pardon the pun) represent the most efficient way to use electricity for personal transport.Perhaps a better alternative will some day emerge, but to be better, it will need to outperform the grid we have today and the incredibly simple home charging model.

Granted - today there is a minority who cant take advantage of home charging, but that is a social and commercial problem, not a technical problem. I.e. the efficiency and (technical) simplicity of charging a car is not diminished by not having a drive and charger. The personal simplicity _is_ diminished, and solutions need to be found for that. But solving problem for the minority (making the good, but not perfect, better) is easier than throwing the entire solution away and starting again.

In typing this I recognise the apparent irony of advocating not throwing everything away and starting again - as it seems like that is what we are doing with fossil fuels, but we are really not, for several reasons.
1) the change is gradual - there is no hard cutoff point to eliminate old fossil cars, just a plan to not perpetuate the use of them by continuing to sell them.
2) Fossil fuel is a consumption model - we are literally burning the stuff and then throwing away the remains every time we drive a car. I.e. we already throw stuff away, and we want to _stop_ throwing away that valuable resource so it can be used for constructive (non CO2 emitting) uses - like making tyres and plastics.
3) Climate change is a very real issue that is threatening the lives and livelihood of this planets inhabitants (not the planet its self - that will be just fine). Moving from a fossil economy to a renewable economy is a necessary step that will involve a massive reduction in burning of fossil fuel. Thats is challenge that is predicating the change and cant be ignored.

 

[Buckman]

It seems that I have been under the mistaken belief that fossil fuel was not used in anyway to provide electric for EVs?

I agree with recycling etc, but climate change has hardly been caused by mankind as proved by scientists not on a government payroll! We may have contributed in a small way, but are not entirely responsible. After all did mankind promote the ice age, volcanoes, fire pits etc?

However I am happy for those that can afford EVs, the charging stations etc and good luck to them, but wish they would stop this holier than thou preaching. I will stick with my polluting diesel for the foreseeable future.

 

[Dustydog]

It seems that I have been under the mistaken belief that fossil fuel was not used in anyway to provide electric for EVs?

Well today for the UK as a whole we must be decades away from zero Fossil fuel usage for all aspects of life and industry. I really don’t understand why we import gas and oil when as a nation we have rich untapped reserves available in the North Sea.

Anyway my thread was started as an honest , constructive assessment of today’s EVs and how in my in my own family they perform. NOT the old hackneyed fossil fuel stuff.

I said a long time ago there should be some kind of passive charging from underground cables laid on motorways and dual carriageways where the vehicle collects its charge as it goes along. The system like my toothbrush 😜 Think how clean the HGVs will be.
Now I must go foraging in the woods with neighbours to build up our wood for the winter to replace our HMG heating allowance🤣

 

[Tobes]

It seems that I have been under the mistaken belief that fossil fuel was not used in anyway to provide electric for EVs?

You are right, today _some_ fossil fuels used to power EVs, but that amount is shrinking every day.

I agree with recycling etc, but climate change has hardly been caused by mankind as proved by scientists not on a government payroll! We may have contributed in a small way, but are not entirely responsible. After all did mankind promote the ice age, volcanoes, fire pits etc?

I am not going to rise to this. The temperature rise resulting from CO2 release that is triggering climate change is traceable to the industrial revolution and is man made, there is no doubt .

However I am happy for those that can afford EVs, the charging stations etc and good luck to them, but wish they would stop this holier than thou preaching. I will stick with my polluting diesel for the foreseeable future.

No one is preaching - just pointing out that the fossil age is coming to an end, and the renewables age is taking over. Keep your diesel - run it as long as it brings you joy - it's a free choice you can make. But just don't be under any illusion that EV is a fad, or some as yet undiscovered fuel/distribution/engine combination will come along and "save the day" from ignominy of driving a kitchen appliance.

EVs are still new. The used market is growing, but not mature, the oldest "modern" EVs are only just 10 years old. The breadth of market is only 3-4 years old.
At some point there will be as wide a used market for EV as there is for ICE and with just as low costs.

 

[otherclive]

Well today for the UK as a whole we must be decades away from zero Fossil fuel usage for all aspects of life and industry. I really don’t understand why we import gas and oil when as a nation we have rich untapped reserves available in the North Sea.

Anyway my thread was started as an honest , constructive assessment of today’s EVs and how in my in my own family they perform. NOT the old hackneyed fossil fuel stuff.

I said a long time ago there should be some kind of passive charging from underground cables laid on motorways and dual carriageways where the vehicle collects its charge as it goes along. The system like my toothbrush 😜 Think how clean the HGVs will be.
Now I must go foraging in the woods with neighbours to build up our wood for the winter to replace our HMG heating allowance🤣

But we make a profit from our reserves of North Sea oil as it sells at a higher price than we pay to import cheaper oil. We don’t produce sufficient gas to be self sufficient.