- Jun 20, 2005
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Volvo soon to be All Electric
- Thread starter Dustydog
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- Nov 11, 2009
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Not totally true, they will be going electric on some models and others will be electric/internal combustion, much like several other cars already on the road. If an all electric car is type approved for towing it should be very good given its torque characteristics, but range will be the big decider. But electric hybrids should be good with no significant range issues, e.g. Mitsubishi Outlander. A most under rated car which GM withdrew from the European market was the Ampera. Not a tow car but one with decent electric range and a petrol engine for when the amps had dropped below par.
I wonder how it will affect Volvo sales in the UK. at one time the vehicle of choice for towing was a Volvo.
but then they went sporty and now electric. yeah.
I do wonder though about the headlong rush into electric cars [not hybrids] there just aren't enough top up points about for long runs some services have a couple but what if your 3rd or 4th in line. could be a long break and you only get 2hrs free parking. that of course is not to mention if you don't have a garage at home to plug it into over night, or have to park your car away from the house.
bit more thought required on that front for me. as for towing well if a petrol engine uses more fuel towing then an electric must use more power reducing the range. less range more stops to charge up. back to problem one.
but then they went sporty and now electric. yeah.
I do wonder though about the headlong rush into electric cars [not hybrids] there just aren't enough top up points about for long runs some services have a couple but what if your 3rd or 4th in line. could be a long break and you only get 2hrs free parking. that of course is not to mention if you don't have a garage at home to plug it into over night, or have to park your car away from the house.
bit more thought required on that front for me. as for towing well if a petrol engine uses more fuel towing then an electric must use more power reducing the range. less range more stops to charge up. back to problem one.
that's a good idea. for a posh London suburb. can't see it being very good on an estate in Leeds, Manchester or Birmingham. though somebody would be away with the cable 10mins after it was plugged in and left. :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
- May 7, 2012
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The announcement is not quite what it seems. What they say is it will not introduce any more cars that are just petrol or diesel powered but will continue to produce the current ones indefinitely. It basically means they are bringing out some electric and hybrid cars but does leave it open to change their mind if the sales are not what the expect.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Dustydog said:
Hello Dusty,
There is every reason to suspect that battery powered cars will tow just as well if not better than their internal combustion (IC) counterparts. Principally becasue the weight of the batteries will keep teh tow vehicles C of G lower than the internal combustion IC equivalent.
As for the mpg, as with any vehicle the heavier load it has to cope with then the more energy is needed to accelerate it. and keep it moving. Because of the multitude of different combinations of engine and electric motor getting reliable meaningful MPG figures from hybrids is nigh on impossible. To make any sense of the figures you have suggested you have to know the exact journey, what speeds, and the setting of the cars power select system was used.
- Jun 20, 2005
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Hi Prof
We tend to drive long distances in non stop mode. Last week a 4.75 hour journey brought us home from the North just about on a tank of diesel. I suspect it will be many years before an electric vehicle can achieve the same. Never mind the time it will take to recharge the batteries!
The mpg figures I quoted came from PCv's Tow car of the Year awards. David Motton set out a very clear explanation of how the various tests are conducted. I think it is reasonable to assume David and his team are somewhat experts at this game and all said and done his figures are probably more realistic than any manufacturers which are produced in laboratory condtions. :cheer:
We tend to drive long distances in non stop mode. Last week a 4.75 hour journey brought us home from the North just about on a tank of diesel. I suspect it will be many years before an electric vehicle can achieve the same. Never mind the time it will take to recharge the batteries!
The mpg figures I quoted came from PCv's Tow car of the Year awards. David Motton set out a very clear explanation of how the various tests are conducted. I think it is reasonable to assume David and his team are somewhat experts at this game and all said and done his figures are probably more realistic than any manufacturers which are produced in laboratory condtions. :cheer:
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Dusty
I have tried to find the report you have suggested but it does not seem to be on the internet, so I cant comment about the TCOTY's process.
But Hybrids like the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and models from Mercedes and VW only have relatively small electric capacity (typically only bout 30 miles solo) and then they begin to rely on the IC engine to power the car. So in some settings the engine will be working almost twice as hard to both power the car and recharge the batteries, so that will drag the mpg right down, you can usually opt for just motive power which will improve the MPG figures as the engines only doing one job. Some of the engines are tuned for economy at one speed only that is suitable to charging, so running them at other speeds is far from ideal.
It also depends on the type of transmission. There are some hybrids where the IC engine only recharges the battery and all the motive drive comes from the electric motors, where as others have a conventional gear box but the motor can fitted to the wheels so they work in parallel, or the motor can be strapped to the engine and it runs through gear box.
So as I suggested its going to be very difficult to get meaningful mpg figures unless there is a lot more openness about how those figures are actually derived.
One thing is pretty certain, the Max torque at zero speed characteristic of electric motors is exactly what towing needs. its range, and speed of recharge that is currently (no pun intended
) the biggest stumbling block.
The FullyCharged blog by Robert Llewellyn I find rather interesting and it seems that battery technology is rapidly improving. There is talk of a super charger capable of completely recharging a Tesla in a matter of minutes. But its is perhaps a litte way off yet, and as others have pointed out charging facilities in the UK are pretty poor really.
Having said that I am consciously looking at a hybrid as my next car. Not for towing, i'll leave that to my relatively trusty Grand Espace, but most of my journeys are less than 20 miles there and back, so Id be rarely calling at the pumps. :cheer:
I have tried to find the report you have suggested but it does not seem to be on the internet, so I cant comment about the TCOTY's process.
But Hybrids like the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and models from Mercedes and VW only have relatively small electric capacity (typically only bout 30 miles solo) and then they begin to rely on the IC engine to power the car. So in some settings the engine will be working almost twice as hard to both power the car and recharge the batteries, so that will drag the mpg right down, you can usually opt for just motive power which will improve the MPG figures as the engines only doing one job. Some of the engines are tuned for economy at one speed only that is suitable to charging, so running them at other speeds is far from ideal.
It also depends on the type of transmission. There are some hybrids where the IC engine only recharges the battery and all the motive drive comes from the electric motors, where as others have a conventional gear box but the motor can fitted to the wheels so they work in parallel, or the motor can be strapped to the engine and it runs through gear box.
So as I suggested its going to be very difficult to get meaningful mpg figures unless there is a lot more openness about how those figures are actually derived.
One thing is pretty certain, the Max torque at zero speed characteristic of electric motors is exactly what towing needs. its range, and speed of recharge that is currently (no pun intended
) the biggest stumbling block.The FullyCharged blog by Robert Llewellyn I find rather interesting and it seems that battery technology is rapidly improving. There is talk of a super charger capable of completely recharging a Tesla in a matter of minutes. But its is perhaps a litte way off yet, and as others have pointed out charging facilities in the UK are pretty poor really.
Having said that I am consciously looking at a hybrid as my next car. Not for towing, i'll leave that to my relatively trusty Grand Espace, but most of my journeys are less than 20 miles there and back, so Id be rarely calling at the pumps. :cheer:
According to Clarkson it won't matter one jot what Volvo do and how many electric cars they build, they are just not a big player when it comes to number of cars being built,
- May 7, 2012
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According to today's paper the head of Volvo says the current diesel models have seven years left, so I think there is plenty of time for them to do a u turn if the sales do not match expectations. One wonders if it was simply a publicity stunt as they are a small player and that got them a lot of very cheap publicity.
- Jul 22, 2014
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Re : The Ubitricity lamp post charging scheme video.
The video does not show any form of locking the charging cable, which could easily be stolen either for using it to charge someone else's car, or just for the heck of it. Even if it were locked I cannot see the vandals leaving it alone.
A typical non-LED residential street light would not use more than around 500W, so even if the LED requires zero power, the car charging is going to be rather slow if it is not to exceed the previous current (but see "red herring" below).
The German guy said because of individual recognition of the cable for billing, there is no need for reserved charging bays. I don't know about Germany, but in most UK streets the lamp posts are several car lengths apart (as in this video). You could have multiple outlets on each post (for even slower charging?) but there are going to be some long cables trailing around for tripping and vandalism.
The change to LED street lighting is a red herring. Street lighting usually taps into the mains circuit that also supplies the properties. How much EV charging power is available will depend on the local electricity sub-station and the size of the cabling under the pavement. It does not actually need to be limited to what the old light bulb used. However, if the total load approaches the local system's full capacity, EV charging will need to be automatically turned off, giving priority to domestic use.
All the issues of range and fights over charging bays would be solved if EVs had quickly exchangeable batteries, exchanges being done at bays in existing filling stations*. However those who advocate EVs seem determined not to follow the existing pattern of refuelling as a point of principle - just not cool enough for them I suppose?
There are big logistic problems to the mass adoption of EVs, and most of the "solutions" you hear assume everyone has the same lifestyle as those who suggest them. Like : "Recharge in the supermarket car park while you shop" - well, I never park at a supermarket. "On a long journey, recharge while you have a coffee in Starbucks/Costa/etc" - sorry, I don't use coffee shops. And so on.
* In addition to home/supermarket/work charging remaining an option.
The video does not show any form of locking the charging cable, which could easily be stolen either for using it to charge someone else's car, or just for the heck of it. Even if it were locked I cannot see the vandals leaving it alone.
A typical non-LED residential street light would not use more than around 500W, so even if the LED requires zero power, the car charging is going to be rather slow if it is not to exceed the previous current (but see "red herring" below).
The German guy said because of individual recognition of the cable for billing, there is no need for reserved charging bays. I don't know about Germany, but in most UK streets the lamp posts are several car lengths apart (as in this video). You could have multiple outlets on each post (for even slower charging?) but there are going to be some long cables trailing around for tripping and vandalism.
The change to LED street lighting is a red herring. Street lighting usually taps into the mains circuit that also supplies the properties. How much EV charging power is available will depend on the local electricity sub-station and the size of the cabling under the pavement. It does not actually need to be limited to what the old light bulb used. However, if the total load approaches the local system's full capacity, EV charging will need to be automatically turned off, giving priority to domestic use.
All the issues of range and fights over charging bays would be solved if EVs had quickly exchangeable batteries, exchanges being done at bays in existing filling stations*. However those who advocate EVs seem determined not to follow the existing pattern of refuelling as a point of principle - just not cool enough for them I suppose?
There are big logistic problems to the mass adoption of EVs, and most of the "solutions" you hear assume everyone has the same lifestyle as those who suggest them. Like : "Recharge in the supermarket car park while you shop" - well, I never park at a supermarket. "On a long journey, recharge while you have a coffee in Starbucks/Costa/etc" - sorry, I don't use coffee shops. And so on.
* In addition to home/supermarket/work charging remaining an option.
- Jul 22, 2014
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You can say that again. A Nissan Leaf (for example) has a 24 KWh battery. To charge that fully in 10 minutes would need 600 Amps (assuming 100% efficiency), about ten times as much as a typical existing house system's capability.ProfJohnL said:
Of course there could be specialised charging stations (roadside filling stations) but even they are going to need some big new connections from further back than the nearest electricity sub-station, considering they will have multiple cars being charged. Of course we won't wait until the battery is 0% flat but the point stands.
Don't believe everything that Elton Musk and his fans say. He is a publicity seeker who likes to say things to create a stir.
It appears that a massive and COSTLY infrastructure, plus an additional power station or two, is needed to support electric cars. I hope the cost to implement this isn't heaped on diesel car owners. :evil:
:evil:
- May 7, 2012
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The infrastructure thing seems to be a real problem. Street parking is simply too big a problem for a simple solution and the extra capacity needed in the mains around towns and cities would need major infrastructure changes which are probably prohibitively expensive. With our daughters living at home at one time we had three cars parked overnight in the drive and trying to charge all of them would have been a nightmare.
The time taken to recharge also looks a formidable challenge if you are doing long journeys. My nephew who has one needed over an hour at the services to do this and many people would find that unacceptable.
A problem that now seems to be arising here, is people taking the cars to work and leaving them on the charging point all day, preventing others using them. This has led to restrictions on parking at them but also means people needing to charge them at work have to go out and move them during the day, or if they could not get one when they arrived keep going out to check if a space is available. You lose the flexibility of filling up in a few minutes at a petrol station where a short queue is all you will get.
Electric cars I think are going to be a solution only for a minority for the foreseeable future.
The time taken to recharge also looks a formidable challenge if you are doing long journeys. My nephew who has one needed over an hour at the services to do this and many people would find that unacceptable.
A problem that now seems to be arising here, is people taking the cars to work and leaving them on the charging point all day, preventing others using them. This has led to restrictions on parking at them but also means people needing to charge them at work have to go out and move them during the day, or if they could not get one when they arrived keep going out to check if a space is available. You lose the flexibility of filling up in a few minutes at a petrol station where a short queue is all you will get.
Electric cars I think are going to be a solution only for a minority for the foreseeable future.
- Nov 11, 2009
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I don't think that Volvo will back track as the forthcoming emissions legislation will force makers to further reduce the overall level of their "fleet's" emissions. In parallel direct injection petrol engines will soon be fitted with exhaust filters to take out their particulate emissions. Going electric or IC/hybrid or hydrogen will all be used along with further weight reduction measures. So the caravan industry must be getting seriously worried as these changes progress and impact on their products. The more so with changes to the financial challenge faced by the younger generation with their large mortgages, student loans, reduced future pensions etc.
Regarding timescales it will happen more quickly than many people think. I daresay that if you had subscribed to "Practical Coaching" in around 1860 you would have scoffed at those ridiculous motorised vehicles with their Red Flag Man walking ahead of them. They would never catch on! Yet the act was withdrawn in 1896 but by 1883 there was a battery operated tram in London and by 1901 the overhead wired electric trams were running in Croydon. Perhaps the IC engine for personal transport has just been an intermediate episode in the long history of transportation?
Regarding timescales it will happen more quickly than many people think. I daresay that if you had subscribed to "Practical Coaching" in around 1860 you would have scoffed at those ridiculous motorised vehicles with their Red Flag Man walking ahead of them. They would never catch on! Yet the act was withdrawn in 1896 but by 1883 there was a battery operated tram in London and by 1901 the overhead wired electric trams were running in Croydon. Perhaps the IC engine for personal transport has just been an intermediate episode in the long history of transportation?
- Mar 14, 2005
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DrZhivago said:
The process was described as charging an on site battery from the grid at a modest rate to provide a power local reservoir., and when a car was connected the battery was capable of providing several thousand amps to charge a car. Battery temperature is the problem, but they are working on that.
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