vw passat cc

[willis7864]

hi all,not sure if in right place if not admin please place where it should be.

I have a vw Passat cc on a 2011 plate.can someone please tell me if I'm legal to tow a elddis crusader super cyclone 2008 twin axle with this car.
I know its not a 85% match,but I'm an experance tower and I also have a hgv class 1 liecence.
has anyone ever towed with the Passat cc and more to the point what is the maxuim weight that I can tow with the cc
thanks for your help andrew

 

[Damian]

The maximum weight the car can tow is detailed in the car specifications.
The outfit you describe based on a 2.0ltr 16v TDI DSG 170Hp comes out at 104%
A 2.0Ltr 16v TDI 140Hp is 105%

The caravan is over 1800Kg so, whilst it may not be illegal to tow it will certainly rip the guts out of your car over a period of time.

Being an HGV driver has no bearing when it comes to towing a caravan.
An artic and caravan are miles apart in the way they react.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Have a look at the weight plate on your car, it has 4 numbers.
1. Gross vehicle weight
2. Gross train weight
3. & 4. are max axle weights.

figure 2. minus figure 1. is the max trailer weight the car can tow. This relates to the 'ideal' trailer with a low centre of gravity (C of G) and low sided. A caravan has a higher C of G and is very high sided.

You also need to know the cars kerb weight or Mass In Service (see V5c certificate) and the vans MTPLM.
Driving an HGV artic is totally different to towing a caravan.

 

[willis7864]

thanks for the reply ,ive towed caravans for many years,i only mention hgv because I have a liecence for it ,just didn't want anyone to come back to say I would need a lience etc.

thanks again I will have to check the plates on the van and car ,I only use the caravan a few times a year.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Not sure if an HGV licence automatically covers a trailer on a car. You need to check the classes on your licence, but if you've been driving for years, as you say, you may have 'granddad rights' in any case.

 

[Damian]

Not sure if an HGV licence automatically covers a trailer on a car. You need to check the classes on your licence, but if you've been driving for years, as you say, you may have 'granddad rights' in any case.

If the OP has C1 + E he is automatically entitled to B+E so he has no problem.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Not sure if an HGV licence automatically covers a trailer on a car. You need to check the classes on your licence, but if you've been driving for years, as you say, you may have 'granddad rights' in any case.

If the OP has C1 + E he is automatically entitled to B+E so he has no problem.

if he drives an HGV the chances are he will have a CE [arctic licence] and therefore automatically have every group below that,

 

[Gafferbill]

Deleted as wrong info posted.

 

[Raywood]

A towing ratio over 100% is regarded as dangerous by all those involved in caravanning. The slab side of the proposed caravan gets an awful lot if buffeting when towed at speed down a motorway and the car is almost certainly too light to control it, so the combination is unsuitable and possibly dangerous apart from being underpowered for that weight.
The towing limit is essentially what the car can restart on a 12% slope and has nothing to do with safety or the ability of the car to perform well at motorway speed. Sorry but I would not even contemplate the combination.

 

[Dustydog]

A front wheel drive tail heavy tug is a recipe for disaster imo.Just imagine the traction difficulties on the wet and grass. I can smell the clutch burning when manoeuvring onto the pitch.
Correctly loaded anything is possible. Would I like to drive this combination for say 6 hours up north?. No thanks. The intense concentration required driving on the edge with little or no margin for error would spoil my holiday.
BTW We still don't know the exact model of passat .
So I'm in Ray's camp on this one.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray.

We all know the potential for a car to loose control of its trailer increases as the mass of the trailer increases and the speed of the outfit increases, but this dogged repeating of 100% is dangerous, gives the impression that as soon as you reach a ratio of 100% suddenly everything changes and disaster is going to occur is scare mongering. But the equally dangerous corollary is that it gives the false impression that towing with a ratio of under 100% for experienced and under 85% for novice caravanners is safe - I'm sorry but it's not that simple and in fact its totally illogical.

Let me be clear, even though I'm arguing against 100% being a don't go situation, I always advocate keeping the trailers mass as small as possible preferably well below 100% and even below 85%, but I don't exclude ratio above 100% provided the car is specified for it and the driver is sensible about what they try to do.

You should never take on Towing casually, it does require a driver to use all their skills and to learn a few more to understand how to set up an outfit, and how to read it's towing characteristics and to predict and avoid situations that might cause a problem. But when prepared and handled correctly towing at over 100% can be achieved without the dire consequences your stated position suggests.

Looking at the guidance logically, yes it supports the concept of keeping trailer masses small, but the precision figures they use are inept and lead to misconceptions which frankly can be more unsafe than exceeding the ratio guidance.

With calculated ratio of 100% it gives the impression the trailer is as heavy as the tow vehicle (a point you have used on several occasions). Well it isnt; I challenge you to show me a caravan being taken on holiday where the car is exactly at its ULM. In reality the car will always be more than its ULM, and of course the caravan should never exceed its MTPLM, so the real world mass ratio will be always less than 100%.

The way the guidance is so often incorrectly quoted gives weight to the impression that complying with it will produce a safe outfit - well it doesn't. There are plenty of instances where an outfit has misbehaved and its ratio is less than the guidance threshold. But crucially there will be plenty of outfits that exceed the guidance values and have not misbehaved. So the guidance figures are not as black and white as you make out.

There is no step change in the limits of control ability at either 85 or 100% calculated ratios. Because there is no legal authority to the values. And for an outfit that is towed at 99% ratio without issues it's not suddenly going to become the guaranteed disaster if if is allowed to creep up to few percent.

I don't recommend using high ratios, but provided none of the legal weight limits are exceeded I can't condemn an outfit at or above 100%. They just need to be driven sensibly.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

spot on Prof.

edit, to add. the Megane was a classic case of the above, all the data suggested it could not tow the van being a 94%+ match. it only weighed 1125kg without driver and 50% full fuel tank, the van weighed just short of 1100kg MTPLM.
so on paper Ray would not have even towed the van with it.
But add a fatty in the drivers seat, a passenger or two, the awning and poles in the back together with other stuff, the weight increased to just short of 1500kg [weighbridge] while the van minus the the awning ect, dropped to 1060kg, [weighbridge] and was reduced further by the 75kg nose weight, carried by the car, so the towed load was 985kg.
this made the towing ratio, nearer 72% than 94%, it goes without saying it made a beautifully towed outfit,
and the paper ratios were wrong.

 

[Raywood]

I do not suggest that going over 100% suddenly makes the outfit dangerous but quite simply you are well above the sensible safety level. Frankly I would not advocate towing at 100% and anyone doing that has to be made well aware of the dangers and to me at that figure you are risking your own life and property and that of everyone around you.
I am not trying to overstate the risks and some people will manage at these high figures but the fact is that if you get into trouble then the higher the ratio the less chance you have of coming out unscathed.
The car will almost always be well above its kerb weight in practice but that was something taken into account when the advice is given. The idea of the car being equal in weight to the caravan is not something you want to tow at, at all and would be even more of a problem.
I simply cannot accept that doing anything other than give strong warnings of the dangers of the wrong ratio is anything other than sensible. and to do otherwise is giving people reassurance they should not be getting.
Frankly the suggestion by the OP is not one that should be contemplated and the difference between the manufacturers towing limit and the realities of towing a caravan need to be made clear without any fudging of the issue.

 

[Dustydog]

Ray will understand what I mean by Duty of Care.
Prof and Colin. I have no problem towing at the ratios you advocate .If I can't do it after 38 years then I haven't learnt a thing.
However we old dogs have a "Duty of Care " to the newbies and lesser experienced not to coerce them down a route that will jeopardise their safety.
For the newbie even assuming a correctly balanced outfit a hell of a lot more of the margin of safety will be eroded at 100% + than if run at 85%.

 

[Damian]

Before this topic becomes yet another long drawn out drama, the Original Poster simply asked whether a specific car and specific caravan was possible.
He has stated that he is an EXPERIENCED tower and as a bonus is also an HGV driver.

 

[Dustydog]

Being an HGV driver has no bearing when it comes to towing a caravan.
An artic and caravan are miles apart in the way they react.
Read more at http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/general/53225-vw-passat-cc?start=0#DmiXFFTTDXokT8CX.99

quote="Damian-Moderator" post=418770]Before this topic becomes yet another long drawn out drama, the Original Poster simply asked whether a specific ca
and specific caravan was possible.
He has stated that he is an EXPERIENCED tower and as a bonus is also an HGV driver.[/quote]

You've lost me Damian.
Is an HGV driver a bonus or not????

 

[Damian]

I think that you will find that I have already said in a much earlier post that caravans and artic trailers are different, however, being a artic driver does give a little advantage as one is used to handling pivoting loads, just takes some adjustment to compensate for the difference in handling and turning characteristics.
A HGV combination is MUCH easier to drive.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Ray & Dusty,

I sort of agree with Ray in-so-far that I suggest caravanners should aim for the lowest possible tow ratio, which implies avoiding high ratio set ups, because as ray correctly implies high ratio outfits have smaller margins for error.

But where we deviate is the concept of very specific guidance values where the industry suggest 85 and 100%. Perhaps you have some additional insight into the method the industry used to produce these guidance figures, because despite extensive enquiries, I have been unable to obtain any corroborated methodology, and no one to hold their hands and say this is how we did it. The longer I have investigated this it seem more like a committee decision where the test was 'its sounds about right' rather than using a scientific approach with verifiable evidence.

Interestingly, in some earlier publications, the Caravan Club actually advised caravanners to weigh their outfits so you could work out the real towing ratio, rather than base it on the ULM and MTPLM but current publications do follow the industries guidelines.

What concerns me is everyone seems to accept the guidance as if it's gospel truth. It's become a 'tradition' which is an excuse for not looking to see if the process is actually effective. I am mindful of my contention that there are plenty of instability incidents that occur with outfit at 85% or even less which makes me wonder if 85% is fit for purpose and I seriously wonder if the guidance should be amended to an even lower value?

As for 100% guidance, to say it's "well above the sensible safety level" means you must know what the 'safety level' actually is. Can you please define it?

Surely the clubs etc would not suggest 100% if it were well above a sensible level? After all they have an even greater legal duty of care as they potentially can make a profit from offering advice.

Who's to say that 100% isn't the safety level?

Yours sincerely The Devil's Advocate :evil:

 

[Dustydog]

Morning Prof
My point is that a higher % ( even 110 compared to 100) will always erode margins of safety and controllability. However I fully agree and always have on here that the myth of 85% has no scientific value. 12 years ago I was towing near 98% with a Laguna Estate 2.2 cdi. I had to be very careful on the grass and wet . It was definitely susceptible to side winds and coach slip streams. Swapping to a large 4x4 for me makes for a more relaxed tow . Obviously there is a fuel penalty.
It is interesting that even after all the intensive investigations over the years between Bailey and the Scientists at The University of Bath no magic ratio has been stated.
They did however demonstrate correct loading of both tug and caravan is crucial.
If the Insurers who deal with all the caravan associated accidents were to release their technical findings on causation then maybe it could be established if weight ratios have any part to play.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,

All front wheel drive cars tend to suffer the same poor grip issues on slippy surfaces. Starting moving on slippy surfaces is always more of a problem for FWD vehicles as under acceleration the inertia of the vehicle reduces load and therfore grip on the front tyres. Because this usually occurs at low speeds It's not an accurate indication of issues with stability which is more high speed related.

The issues of bow wave and aerodynamic forces is not related to the caravan mass but more to do with area and shape. Big caravans produce bigger windage related forces than small caravans. The forces would be the same even if you lost all the payload in a caravan and it was only 75% of its MTPLM. In fact an empty lorry is more likely to be blown over than a full one, so the traditional view that more mass makes for a more unstable outfit may not be true at all in the context of aerodynamic effects.

When Bailey caravans commissioned Bath University to carry out some tests, it was a restricted brief to identify the most critical towing related forces on combination. The preamble to the study discussed the relative effects of different forces, and eventually settled on the factors developing Yaw inertia and forces. It was never intended to look for a universal "safe ratio".

The results quantified the effects of Yaw inertia and then they applied it to a real car and caravan. They reinforced the concept of keeping the mass distribution as close to the trailer's axle as possible.

Because the tests were only carried out to demonstrate the principles involved they only used one car and one caravan, the study points out it's not possible impose the results onto any other car and caravan.

For example, the report (and I have read the whole report) found that the particular car and caravan combination seemed to have a critical speed of about 55 mph. It's ironic that this particular combination could not tow with inherent control at the legal national speed limit for outfits! I wonder how many others are like that on the road?

Given the history we now have of over well 50 years of caravanning, I am sure that if the insurance companies had detected a significant correlation between incident and a particular characteristic of the outfits involved such as weight ratio's, they would have acted and introduced universal limits on ratio's or scaled insurance premiums to take into account the size or weight of trailers policyholders use. They haven't so either they don't see a problem or they don't look at the data in that way.

Bringing this back to the validity of 100% ratio's. If you can't see the logic of an 85% guidance, then it must call into question the validity of 100% guidance produced by the same anonymous committee.

But until there is more logical and scientific based method of guiding caravanners regarding matching, 85% is better than no guidance at all.

 

[ProfJohnL]

An addendum to my last post

It occurs to me that other countries do have various controls which basically set out different speed limits depending on the combination of car and caravan you have.

We could apply something similar in the UK based on the premise that instability is induced by overspeed speed, then by keeping speed down should reduce the number of instability incidents.

With Towing Ratio's of up to 85% max speed on national speed limit roads of 60mph (as it is now)
For anything between 85 and 100% ... 50Mph
And over 100% max speed ...40Mph.

Obviously these are maximum speeds unless a lower limit is already in force. Trailers would have to display restricted speed limit signs appropriate to their calculated ratio's

Incidentally this is very similar to the limits for different classes of HGV's

 

[MrTeacake1]

I tow with a twin with an E65. It is a heavier car with a much bigger footprint. When I pass HGVs, I really feel her digging her claws in to keep the outfit stable. I believe that if my outfit did get crossed up, my car has the dynamics to enable me to sort the problem out. A Passat would have absolutely no chance, irrespective of his experience.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I tow with a twin with an E65. It is a heavier car with a much bigger footprint. When I pass HGVs, I really feel her digging her claws in to keep the outfit stable. I believe that if my outfit did get crossed up, my car has the dynamics to enable me to sort the problem out. A Passat would have absolutely no chance, irrespective of his experience.

Hello Mr teacake,

First of all welcome to the forum and do keep dipping in.

I'm a little sorry this is your first post because of what I have to say about it. Please at all times remember I focus on what been written, and whether its factual or logical

I have no idea what an "E65" is and whilst you tell us you tow a twin axle, you don't tell us the weights or any other details so we have no basis to evaluate your comment.

As I have implied both in this thread and others, you cannot take the characteristics of one outfit and assume another will have the same. Even the same pairing in the hands of another driver may exhibit different characteristics, because of the way its loaded and driven.

Unless you have actually experienced a Passat towing your caravan, you have no conclusive means of pronouncing if it would work or not.

Please give us some more facts about you and your outfit.

 

[Firkle]

The OP can find the answer to his question on the plate attached to the B pillar on the passenger door of his CC.

To quote from my own 140BMT CCGT

2050
3890

1-1100
2-1000

My maximum permitted gross combination weight is 3890 and subtracting the gross vehicle weight rating of 2050 this gives me a MTPLM of 1840 for a caravan, which is rounded down in VW documentation to 1800.

I personally tow a 1500kg MTPLM caravan and even though I have more than 30 years towing experience, I would not consider hitching anything heavier.

VW specs on 4 wheel drive CCs are approximately 200kg higher.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The OP can find the answer to his question on the plate attached to the B pillar on the passenger door of his CC.

To quote from my own 140BMT CCGT

2050
3890

1-1100
2-1000

My maximum permitted gross combination weight is 3890 and subtracting the gross vehicle weight rating of 2050 this gives me a MTPLM of 1840 for a caravan, which is rounded down in VW documentation to 1800.

I personally tow a 1500kg MTPLM caravan and even though I have more than 30 years towing experience, I would not consider hitching anything heavier.

VW specs on 4 wheel drive CCs are approximately 200kg higher.

Hello Firkle,

Thank you for your input, especially as you have a VW CC. Your figures for the car may be correct but just a small point; you have misnamed the result of the calculation.

The difference between the GTM and GVM is the maximum towed braked weight the vehicle is specified as being able to handle. Using your figures 3890-2050 = 1840kg

The cars specification determines the maximum weight it can legally tow. That is not the same thing as the MTPLM of a trailer it can tow. It can in fact tow a trailer of any MTPLM provided its actual measured weight is no greater than the car's specified towed weight limit.

So for example that could be a box trailer whose MTPLM is 2500kg with a MIRO of only 600kg The trailer could be partially loaded with 1200kg, giving a towed weight of 1800kg and the car is legally permitted to tow it, even though the MTPLM exceeds the cars towed weight capability.

Whether it's wise to it is another matter.

You tell us you "would not consider hitching anything heavier" than 1500kg to your CC. This is well below the the car's stated towing capacity, so this is a limit that you have chosen. Please can you explain your reasoning to limit it to only 1500kg?