WATER INGRESS IN 12 MONTH OLD CARAVAN

Mar 14, 2005
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Our pride and joy had its first service last week and 60% to 25% damp was found along the floor on both sides having entered via the bottom awning channel
I don't want to get into naming the make but wonder if anyone has had a successful repair or whether its better to get rid of the caravan altogether
The dealer has resealed the awning rails and has heaters/dehumidifiers working inside
I wonder how moisture can successfully be removed through plastic coated interior panels or am I missing something ?
 
Sep 4, 2011
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I have been in the same position twice during my 40 years of caravanning each of them leaking before 2 year old.I have just bit the bullet and got rid of them,as i think they will never be dried out completely .
 
Apr 16, 2007
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John

I am in the same position with my 9 month old caravan - the make is the name of a bird!!! The model is a challenge!! Decided to get rid of it as I am not sure it will ever be dry. There is a great deal of talk about this on the company's much hyped web site.

Good luck
Lawrence
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Looks like they are talking new vans which must be a big disappointment given all the hype over the last few years re improved build methods and better materials.
 

Mel

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Mar 17, 2007
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Lawrence said:
John

I am in the same position with my 9 month old caravan - the make is the name of a bird!!! The model is a challenge!! Decided to get rid of it as I am not sure it will ever be dry. There is a great deal of talk about this on the company's much hyped web site.

Good luck
Lawrence

We bought a similarly challenged bird in 2007, brand new. Damp found on each of the first two annual services. Once under the side window and once under the back window. No damp found on the third service. All repaired under warranty. Got rid of it after 3years because we wanted a fixed bed layout.
mel
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Thanks for the replies
The dealer who I trust tells me that it will dry out Ok and that they do them a lot
We are going away for a few days later in the week so will collect the van and if needed return it for more drying out and damp testing next week
They tell me there is a directive from the aviary to reseal the the bottom rails on service but it would seem that the bird has already flown in our case and that the damp is already roosting
The much hyped website was a big disappointment and I left after a few weeks feeling a lack of confidence before even having this damp problem
First reaction is to cut losses and trade it in but next year caravanning is in doubt due to wife's deteriorating health
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Morning John
Very sorry to hear the news abouit your wife's health. I hope the doctors can do something to help her continue caravanning.
As for your bird, you said
"The dealer who I trust tells me that it will dry out Ok and that they do them a lot"
I've always said a good dealer is worth their weight in gold. Clearly you have one and thus I would be inclined to trust them. I'd get them to do the repair asap and then foc get them to do a series of 3 monthly damp checks in the problem area. If all is well, then I'd keep the bird.
A bird in the hand etc LOL
smiley-wink.gif
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hi S D
Thanks for the words of wisdom
I was thinking along those lines
My wife has had Parkinsons for 25 years and the doctors have indeed given us already many extra years caravanning and quality of life as a decade ago she had the deep brain implant surgery as featured on Monroe a few weeks ago
Technique has obviously improved as he did the operation that took 8 hours then in 5 minutes so who knows maybe if we contact James Nisbett he will be able to cure the ovarian cancer as well
We do try to see the funny side and be positive at all times
smiley-laughing.gif
 

Parksy

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Nov 12, 2009
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Forum members are allowed to state what make and model of caravan has suffered from water ingress, there's really no need to try to say 'Swift Challenger' in a roundabout way.
smiley-wink.gif

The rules of the forum don't allow businesses such as caravan dealers to be 'named and shamed' but no caravan forum could properly exist if members couldn't state which caravan they have and if there have been problems with it.
If details of problems such as water ingress or poor build quality are reasonably aired on forums, without getting into the 'my caravan is better than yours' syndrome, then manufacturers can identify potential problems early and do something about them.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hi John,So sorry to read of your problrms with a year old caravan, with regards to whether the van will dry out properly, I would like to advise you of a simular problem I Had two years ago.
To start with my van was second hand when purchased, it came with a 24 month all singing and dancing gurantee, Gold standard, i had severall other items items changed no problem under this guarantee.
My first service with this van horrendous damp problem, on the left hand side panel that connects with the front panel.
Serious of events,
1st, the dealer gave a thorough inpection of the damp area, (I still think that they missed it when they offered it for sale) gave a full detail of work is need to carry out the repair and what new parts are required to replace the damage ones.
2nd, they removed the inner plastic covering of the panel from the ceiling to the ground floor level , Part removed was between the front left hand window and the side window,about a metre wide, this enabled the board to dry out, which it did over a period of a few months.
The colours on the surface of the inner damp board were quite horrific at first but gradually faded.
I took the van away on various trips whilst the inner board was drying out.
The Gold guarantee came with their own inspector who visited my house to take photoes of the internal panel, within the caravan, he also instructed me as to what would be replaced, to guarantee a damp.
A new complete front panel, Replacement of the old awning rail with a brand new fitted, a brand new set of window seals For all the front windows.and the front side window.New plastic inner covering for the panel
The two yearly service inspections since then have proved to be damp free.
Thoughts of why did I not trade the van in after discovering the dampness, well the previous van I did purchase brand new van (never Again) 2 nd service required a complete new rear panel, that went in a few months after the repairs were carried out, the dealer advised me that the front panel also had to be replaced as it failed its next service.
Why did i not trade in my present van after the damp ordeal,well after two failures , what can newer van offer more heart ache!!!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Parksy said:
Forum members are allowed to state what make and model of caravan has suffered from water ingress, there's really no need to try to say 'Swift Challenger' in a roundabout way.
smiley-wink.gif

The rules of the forum don't allow businesses such as caravan dealers to be 'named and shamed' but no caravan forum could properly exist if members couldn't state which caravan they have and if there have been problems with it.
If details of problems such as water ingress or poor build quality are reasonably aired on forums, without getting into the 'my caravan is better than yours' syndrome, then manufacturers can identify potential problems early and do something about them.
Thanks Parksie and Royston
I didn't mention the make of van in the first posting as I was more interested in the problem as it occurs in most makes and thought that by leaving out the specific makers name it would attract more response from a wider field
Today I have been told that the damp readings did not go far up the wallboard so that is encouraging
We are taking the van away as we have a hospital appointment in Birmingham on Friday and the dealer now wants us to return it on Sunday so that he can monitor the drying out
They tell me that they have a manufacturers directive to check the lower seam on service but that allows damp to penitrate for up to a year before detection and in our case the van was on the forecourt for months before we bought it at the end of the season.Surely a recall would have been a better option
It certainly wasn't a swift response to a known defect
There are even videos of the same model caravan with damp on U tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAi_bOt6I_U&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjiX0YNDqio
 
Jan 5, 2011
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Yep me as well, 2011 SWIFT CONQUEROR 645, 40% damp at first service. i suggested on swift talk to a director at Swift that they change thier logo to a dophin.... that went down well!!!
 
Jun 20, 2005
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WatsonJohnG said:
Parksy said:
Forum members are allowed to state what make and model of caravan has suffered from water ingress, there's really no need to try to say 'Swift Challenger' in a roundabout way.
smiley-wink.gif

The rules of the forum don't allow businesses such as caravan dealers to be 'named and shamed' but no caravan forum could properly exist if members couldn't state which caravan they have and if there have been problems with it.
If details of problems such as water ingress or poor build quality are reasonably aired on forums, without getting into the 'my caravan is better than yours' syndrome, then manufacturers can identify potential problems early and do something about them.
Thanks Parksie and Royston
I didn't mention the make of van in the first posting as I was more interested in the problem as it occurs in most makes and thought that by leaving out the specific makers name it would attract more response from a wider field
Today I have been told that the damp readings did not go far up the wallboard so that is encouraging
We are taking the van away as we have a hospital appointment in Birmingham on Friday and the dealer now wants us to return it on Sunday so that he can monitor the drying out
They tell me that they have a manufacturers directive to check the lower seam on service but that allows damp to penitrate for up to a year before detection and in our case the van was on the forecourt for months before we bought it at the end of the season.Surely a recall would have been a better option
It certainly wasn't a swift response to a known defect
There are even videos of the same model caravan with damp on U tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAi_bOt6I_U&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjiX0YNDqio

Come on Prof John

This is right up your street, especially as it involves one of us old "lags"
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Well well well,after watching the video british manufactured caravans, what has gone wrong with the industry.
All these fancy designs, grade 3 insulation, what grade of damp proof thats never mentioned.
My second van was a Bailey imperial 1998 model with the floppy tin roof, never ever had any damp problems with it, it was only because my wife fancied a double bed that we part exchanged it in 2006 for a brand new model that the 2nd service required a brand new rear panel due to excess dampness.
I am sure that joe public would prefer a new van without all the additional extras , that was manufactured to a higher standard of assembley whithout the constent fear of excessive damp occuring.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Thank you Dusty

Again I cannot claim to be guru in
these matters, I just have strong opinions that good product design techniques should
identify these types of issues through prototypes and testing
regimes, and design solutions, which should include prevention of
wrong assembly.

Where a critical feature is involved,
methods of proving the design and production will guarantee a
successful result – in short (and we have been here so many times
before) Quality Assurance.

I have viewed the suggested videos with
interest. I have no reason to doubt the presenters intentions, and
they certainly show the reasons why the customer has every reason to
be really upset with their caravan purchase.

But there are questions that the video
does not answer, which might explain the images we see.

Without knowing the design of the
bottom side wall moulding, it may or may not require to be bonded
tightly to the side wall. So the apparent gap may be perfectly
innocent.

The assumption that rain on the side
wall enters the gap and then gets into the floor construction may be
incorrect, the water may be sourced from elsewhere on the caravan,
and travel by some other route.

The use of the moisture meter seems to
show moisture on the surface of the wall. The coating on the wall
board is often impervious so that can carry surface condensation
giving a false reading.

As I stated I am sure the the presenter
is genuine in there intention, its just that such images need to be
considered carefully.

However, its very distressing to see
such evidence that leads to customer dissatisfaction. I know from the
correspondence on the forum that other owners are reporting similar
issues with this model, so whilst the video is of just one example it
seems likely it is not a totally isolated incident.

Unfortunately we have to be a little
circumspect with regard to apparent faults reported in this way:-

Forums by their nature will tend to
carry more reports of complaints about products rather than reports
of when products are satisfactory or good. Its also common practice
for manufacturers to refrain from open debate about such matters on
forums, so the inevitable outcome will usually have a more negative
bias than positive. As readers we're hamstrung because there could be
salient information not provided which may leave an unbalanced
perspective of the report.

Having made that point, the fact that
water ingress issues continue to come to light on this and other
forums gives credence to the contention the industry fails to really
understand the mechanics of the failures, AND the impact it has on
those customers who have the misfortune to have purchased a caravan
that leaks!

There is no acceptable reason for water
ingress, and the manufactures cannot be complacent, because it
represents a failure of their duty to produce a perfect product- in
short a dry caravan.

We don't know the numbers of
caravans/motorhomes that develop this type of failure, but regardless
of the percentage, I firmly believe manufacturers are reneging on a
moral duty of care (if not a legal one) to be far more supportive of
customers when this issue arises. Its unreasonable to blame the
seller, (as SoGA requires) as they have no direct input into the
design or construction of the product.

Some manufactures will tell you in
water ingress only affect a small undefined number of their total
production, Fine; then they should adopt a “lets sort it out
quickly and fully” for the few that do suffer, and be more generous
in terms of possible replacements and or compensation.

Where greater numbers may be involved,
then they seriously need to look at why the problem exists, and
engineer a solution and offer it to all customers.

Any manufacture that continues to
produce a product that has a tendency to be evidently unsatisfactory,
should be doing:-

All they can to understand and remedy
the problem.

Undertaking a comprehensive product
review to establish why their products continue to demonstrate this
tendency.

Then produce a tested and proven
solution to cure current products and design future products to break
the tradition.

Caravans should not be prone to leaks
that damage the structure, content or customer confidence.

As a legal issue if sufficient numbers
of customer have the same proven issue with a product or range of
products, then there is an option of taking a class action against
the manufacture- but its costly and time consuming with no guaranteed
outcome.
 
May 7, 2012
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I have to agree with the Professor although I doubt the problem is design as I think the majority of caravans do not leak. The problem is poor workmanship and quality control and given the cost of correcting leaks it must be cheaper to get it right first time. The Eldiss Solid construction looks as though it may be an answer but only time will tell but having seen the video it loks less susceptible to errors.
If you want to sue the problem is your contract is with the dealer but I would not let that stop you, they will bring in the manufacturer and if it is a small claims case the risk on costs is theirs and a settlement is more likely. A class action carries risk of costs awarded against you or the cost of insurance against this and given the total being claimed may make the manufacturers insurer more determined to defend it. If you bought it on HP you also have a claim against the loan company. A lot more cases in court might give the manufacturers the kick up the backside they seem to need on this one.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Raywood said:
I doubt the problem is design
Hello Ray,

I challenge that thought.
A good design prevents errors during construction, so if there is a construction issue, then in my book the designers have failed to foolproof the manufacture.

It may seem a hard attitude to take, but in some industries (usually the ones that have good reliability records) almost as much effort goes into the design of the production process to minimise production,/workmanship errors as the product itself. The procurment process also shodl get the workover to ensure that all matereials are guaranteed to be to specification. This is all Quality Assurance and leads to "get it right first time",

The move in successfull indstries is towards QA rather than Quality Control. The difference is that by ensuring materails are right, and the manufacture is fool proofed, the inveitble out come will be consistently manufactured products.

The answer is not to inspect everything, as that uses additional manpower and production time, the trick is either make wrong assembly impossible, or to give ownership of the job to the operator and train and charge them with ensuring the task is completed to a set of critera. Inspection should only be necessary where it is impossible foolproof the manufacturing process, or where there is a legal need for proof of compliance.

Studies in some industries have shown that the cost of repairing a manufacturing error that gets through to the customer can be many, even hundreds of times the cost of simply getting right first time. I remember a study that showed how a forgotten £0.001 washer in an electrical applaince actually cost the manufacture about £150 per appliance to administer and manage the recall and the cost of rectification. If it hadn't been for manufacturers liability insurance it would have bankrupted the company.

Good design must include managing the whole companies efforts towards zero defects.
 
Apr 9, 2006
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Caravan manufacturers could go a long way to improve the quality of their caravans, if they did away with piece work and the practice of working fast against the clock. The money saved from the high cost of not having to rectify a lot of the problems we are getting with new vans, would go a long way to funding a decent basic wage for their workforce.
Certain stages of assembly and fitting should also have to be signed for, as happens in many other industries.
 
May 7, 2012
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Raywood said:
I doubt the problem is design
Prof John L said:
Hello Ray,

I challenge that thought.
Hi Prof
I do take your point but the same basic design has been used throughout the industry for many years and if Vanmaster can give a lifetime guarantee (for a price) then the others should be able to. It is basically a question of doing the job properley with good materials. To eliminate the damp problem completely you do need a rethink with something completely diferent in the way of construction but very few manufacturers are big enough to research and come up with a realy radical new idea. So far the Eldiss Solid construction looks the best bet for the future and I assume the others are looking at this now but eliminating the sealed joints would have to be the best answer if possible.
The effect on customer confidence because of leaking vans is very clear in this and other forums and it seems to me that if anyone can solve the problem they would take the market by storm.
Ray
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Ray,

I just can't take the same lenient view that you do regarding the culpability of the manufactures for leaky caravans. I think I should make clear that I have never suffered with a leaky caravan personally but I have seen the absolute despair and misery that leaks cause owners as they see their investment rotting away and the apparent disinterest of dealers and manufactures where warranty and guarantee periods have expired.

To be fair, you make a very valid point that the basic design has been proved capable of providing a dry caravan, and that is a positive. But if the design can be made to work, why aren't the manufactures doing it right every time? They could but they don't.

We now have a proven situation where if a product is assembled correctly it will remain dry. But because the manufacturers will not control the assembly of their products they can't be sure how long it will remain dry. So it seems that rather than put their own house in order, the charge the customer more by way of a insurance policy to cover the manufactures ineffectiveness!

This does not sound right or fair. Customers are paying the manufactures more to be careless! I seriously suggest that such schemes are as controversial and suspect as PPI has been.

When you consider the current methods of construction (Excluding Bailey Alutech system) has been used for close to 40 years, and despite the number of caravans that may have been dry, there has always been a small but significant number that have leaked. The manufacturers have had plenty of time and evidence to fully investigate the causes and fix it. But in stead they appear to have stuck their heads in the sand and done nothing or very little for far too long. This is basic product evaluation and development, which on the evidence available has not been carried out.

You suggest that manufactures have been unabel to finance the necessary work. Well - Look at the profits these companies have made over the years, Yes, I know they have been up and down, but they could certainly find the funds to buy-out their rivals and create the large groups. So I seriously doubt that funding such research was restricted on simply by limited financials over the whole of that time.

Traditionally the caravan industry has used piece work as their wage driver. This system was rife in the UK car industry and look what happened to that. It provides little incentive for production operatives to take an interest and pride in their work, which basically allows standards and therefore quality and reliability to drop. This has to play a major role in the poor maintenance of build standard, but there will be other factors such as poor stock and parts deliveries to the lines.

All these factors are under the control of the manufacturers and until they wake up to the reprehensible performance of the industry they will be in a precarious position.

I think you are right,if a mass producer can show they have created a guaranteed dry for life caravan, the will steal a march on their competitors. Bailey have tried and Elddis about to try, but I'm not holding my breath untill they have addressed the underlying causes of poor quality.
 

JTQ

May 7, 2005
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Sadly IMO a lot of the modern issues of damp came with the demise of the one-piece "boat" roof with its side over laps that virtually did away with the need for a sealant there.
VanMaster, that has been mentioned, benefit from this concept in part though have chosen to joint the roof, however wisely doing that joint with a modern bonding agent not a non setting sealant.
Even with "boat" roofs sealing the trim strips and awning rail fixing screws is a weakness, greatly aggregated where the owner actually used the rail for an awning.

The Elddis SoLid jointing system certainly IMO has merit in using a bonding agent rather than a non-setting sealant and in doing away with screw fixings. But just as in all cases were a seal is relied on it is dependent on that sealing agent being faultlessly applied. The SoLid system also bonds the awning rail giving me confidence that using an awning could well be viable without the issues associated with awning use in conventional screwed construction. I am concerned it retains the wood groundings as this makes the need for perfect sealing paramount, even a minor leak spells over time disaster.
I hope the necessary vigour has been adopted in the degreasing, agent application, clamping and quality management of executing SoLid production as has been shown in its concept.

Bailey’s Alu-Tech is IMO design wise a massive step forward adopting bonding, a major reduction in the use of wood and a very elegant solution to providing an awning fixing. IMO it’s a pity the floor did not benefit from the same radical design attention as the body itself. And sadly one reads of silly minor detail design mistakes as the grab handle fixings running counter to the concepts used in the main body design and of poor production line care.
 
May 7, 2012
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I don't think I take a leniant view on the manufacturers culpability for leaking vans, it should not happen and the level it does seems to be down to appalling workmanship and quality control which in some manufacturers cases seems to be compounded by a total lack of sympathetic and fair handling of the subsequent complaint. Only Coachman seem to take a sympathetic view judging from postings.
I accept that the manufacturers have had years to come up with a new system but most are simply not big enough to manage the research and development. Eldiss have used the expertise of the adhesive manufacturer rather than acept the cost of the work themselves. The manufacturer presumably has not given Eldiss exclusive use so may be looking at the bigger picture if others change to this design.
 

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