Whale IC panel - water circuit max current?

[BaileyNiggles]

I know, certainly on our caravan, there's a five amp fuse for the water pump, but does anyone know the maximum current the circuit could in fact take if a more powerful pump were fitted and the fuse uprated accordingly? Whale are playing dumb on this, answering my question by simply giving me a link to a PDF download about their range of pumps and then ignoring the follow up email pointing out that wasn't the question!

More generally, out of interest, is water, heating and water heater all switched within the Intelligent Control panel and if so how (relays, solid-state relays, power transistors, or are there relays hidden away somewhere under seats or somewhere else perhaps?)

 

[Parksy]

It's not surprising that Whale don't want to get involved with D-I-Y 'upgrades'.
The circuit has a 5 amp fuse fitted which means that the circuit is designed to safely handle 5 amps.

 

[Damian]

Quote " More generally, out of interest, is water, heating and water heater all switched within the Intelligent Control panel and if so how (relays, solid-state relays, power transistors, or are there relays hidden away somewhere under seats or somewhere else perhaps?) "

Your best bet is to ask the prople who make it,,,,,,,,,,,Whale.

Quote " or are there relays hidden away somewhere under seats or somewhere else perhaps?) "

Do you honestly think that caravan manufacturers have the time or inclination to hide stuff under seats or elsewhere??????????
The units, whatever they are, come as units and are fitted as quickly as possible, usually within the 10 minute "Stop" for that particular bit of equipment.

 

[BaileyNiggles]

A five amp fuse doesn't mean the circuit is designed to only take five amps. By that logic your ring main can only take 3 amps because that's the fuse you will find in a table lamp. The convention is you use a fuse that is just higher than the normal operating current of the device most likely to fail. For all you or I know the wiring itself could take, say, 10 amp. That's the question. I did reply to the other post but its not appeared, not that I really said anything of note so maybe let that go. Anyone here know the answer to the questions???

 

[Parksy]

A water pump circuit isn't a ring main though is it?
A water pump circuit is an electrical circuit which has been costed and designed by a caravan manufacturer to conduct enough power to drive the water pump that was fitted by that caravan manufacturer, nothing more, nothing less.
Why would any caravan manufacturer bother to install an electrical circuit to power a specific item fitted by them which used higher rated conductive material that that which was needed?
In my experience caravan manufacturers rarely if ever over-engineer their products or component parts, and their costing tends to be minimalized rather than maximised.

 

[BaileyNiggles]

At the risk of prolonging the muddying of this thread with needless arguments about whether I should have asked the (perfectly sensible, literally 'practical caravan') question, I'll answer a final time .... why would they do it? Cost and simplicity I'd suggest. Far quicker, less prone to error, and no more expensive to use wiring and components that are rated to meet the highest or most common needs rather than fiddle about sourcing (possibly non-existent) lower rated components. General connecting wire, terminal connector blocks, relays, transistors, you name it are so very very very cheap why not streamline and go for one size fits all.

Don't know what happened to my reply to the other chap who was off on one about why would manufacturers deliberately hide things around a van .. no idea; they put things where appropriate or easy was my - seemingly removed, presumably because he didn't like it? - reply.

My original fair question, hoping people here have practical experience of the issue in hand, remains ...

 

[Grey13]

The technical answer is, check the wire size then look up the current rating for that wire. A suitable fuse will protect that or be designed to cover the equipment it is feeding. Another factor you cannot really check is the overall power supply and distribution from the 12V system. The panel probably has carefully worked out limits for power sharing and battery / charger supplies. I would be careful changing things without understanding all aspects of the design. However it begs the question, why would anyone want a "more powerful pump"? Systems are designed to work as a whole. Let me explain, the pipe work will not burst with the pressure the installed pump can deliver at static or flow conditions. I have read about a few instances where a larger pump has been fitted and the folk were on a swimming holiday "right inside their van". (Burst pipe) That aside, larger pump probably means larger flows, well larger flows will mean the "hot water supply" will run out much quicker, so if you are looking for a 2 minute hot water shower followed by 10 minutes cold water, don't be surprised.

 

[Damian]

Quote " no idea, they put things where appropriate or easy was my - seemingly removed, presumably because he didn't like it? - "

Wrong ! I have not removed any of your postings, so please dont "presume" it is often a wrong presumption.

Quote " My original fair question, hoping people here have practical experience of the issue in hand, remains ... "

I think that you have the wrong idea about the forum.
It is contributed to by ordinary folk who just happen to have a caravan.
How all the bits work in minute detail is not what they are really interested in, as long as it works.

As a caravan engineer I dont care how it works as long as it works and people have a good holiday or trip out in their van.
All the things you are asking are questions for the makers of the equipment which is where you will probably find a brick wall as they are far too busy to be going into all the details of their product with an unknown person for unknown reasons.

If you can find any other forum which is better than this one for general help...............................need I say more.

 

[Parksy]

No posts have been removed.
After you type a reply, if you forget to click on the 'Save' button your reply won't load to the message boards.
As for your reply to me, if you had read what I'd written you'll see that I haven't suggested that you shouldn't have asked a question.
I've tried to offer advice based on my experience of owning touring caravans, but my advice probably doesn't contain the answer that you were hoping for.
That's fine, ignore my reply and good luck with your search for answers that fit with your own ideas.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Back in the 1990's I received a copy of "Specification for 12V electrical installations in Touring caravans published by the NCC. It sets out a table for determining the CSA of a cable based on circuit length and current draw.

Fuse protection fitted by the caravan manufacture is designed to protect the circuit, and is not necessarily designed to protect the appliance the circuit feeds, especially where the appliance has its own fuses.

Logically the manufacturer would not specify a fuse that undercuts the appliances rating, and that also means the caravan manufacture would not choose an appliance that exceeds the fuse rating of the circuit.

If the caravan manufacture has fitted a 5A fuse, then that will be to protect the wiring and switch gear of the circuit, the pump to be fitted must not draw more than the fuse rating.

No professional would recommend using a device that exceeds the capability of the supply wiring.

Each appliance that can be sold separately has to have its own control system as specified by the appliance manufacturer. Some caravan manufacturers do (in conjunction with the appliance manufacturers) include appliance controls in a single console. You would have to ask the caravan manufacturer for details of any such bespoke arrangement's.

 

[RayS]

I'd come at this from the other direction. If you want to fit a more powerful pump, pick one and get ll the data on it, particularly the current taken at full load. If this turns out to be less than 5 amps then you don't have a problem

 

[VicMallows]

If the caravan manufacture has fitted a 5A fuse, then that will be to protect the wiring and switch gear of the circuit, the pump to be fitted must not draw more than the fuse rating.

No professional would recommend using a device that exceeds the capability of the supply wiring.
.

I agree with your second point in the above quote, but not the first.

Certainly in my Elddis , all domestic wiring from the distribution fuse box is in precisely the same gauge of wire. This is what I would expect from a manufacturing point of view. However the manufacturer has chosen to fuse different circuits at either 5A or 10A depending on the expected load on that particular circuit. In this situation I can see no reason why you should not uprate a 5A fuse to 10A on a particular circuit if you wish to use it to supply more current. The important point is simply to make sure that the fuse rating adequately protects the circuit wiring.

(OK, the 'safe' answer is to simply say 'manufacturer knows best ...don't do it' ..... but this is supposed to be 'PRACTICAL Caravaning' ) :cheer:

 

[Damian]

Quote " (OK, the 'safe' answer is to simply say 'manufacturer knows best ...don't do it' ..... but this is supposed to be 'PRACTICAL Caravaning' ) "

Having had to deal with some of the "Practical" modifications by a number of people with , may I say limited knowledge to be polite, their wonderful (or should that be woeful) upgrades which actually were anything but, I have to go with "The manufacturer knows best "

 

[Martin24]

We have this system in our GT65 and I can say that we can see no reason for fitting a more powerful pump. If the actual problem is water flow then check the filters on the end of the taps. Beyond that all I know is works well and has done for the past 4 years.

 

[VicMallows]

Having had to deal with some of the "Practical" modifications by a number of people with , may I say limited knowledge to be polite, their wonderful (or should that be woeful) upgrades which actually were anything but, I have to go with "The manufacturer knows best "

Damian,
Perhaps the problem is that I grew up in the era of Practical Wireless and Practical Television etc, when 'practical' meant fixing and even building your own radios and even colour TVs. This meaning of the word is still alive and well on forums such as Practcal Boat Owner, where the intricacies of engines/electrics/gas systems/etc etc are discussed freely in minute detail. The one answer very seldom heard is 'leave it for the boatyard to do'.

It seems that in the Caravan world, 'Practical' has a different interpretation?

 

[Damian]

Quote " Damian,
Perhaps the problem is that I grew up in the era of Practical Wireless and Practical Television etc, when 'practical' meant fixing and even building your own radios and even colour TVs. This meaning of the word is still alive and well on forums such as Practcal Boat Owner, where the intricacies of engines/electrics/gas systems/etc etc are discussed freely in minute detail. The one answer very seldom heard is 'leave it for the boatyard to do'.

It seems that in the Caravan world, 'Practical' has a different interpretation?"

I am in the same position Vic, I was brought up on dismantling , repairing and rebuliding almost everything and still do as much as I can within the confines of what is actually "do able" now.
The sad fact is that many manufacturers have resorted to the "no user parts serviceable" and make it as difficult as possible to do anything but swap one "box" for another.

Then I come across one individual who decided that it was Ok to wire a double pole switch with the Live going straight to Neutral, and wondered why he had tripped every power bollard within reach of his hook up cable !!
There are very few actual "mechanics" now, just box fitters, which is why it is frustrating when you hear "Well nothing shows up on the computer ".......

However ,that is another topic to be had.

 

[Volly]

“Then I come across one individual who decided that it was Ok to wire a double pole switch with the Live going straight to Neutral, and wondered why he had tripped every power bollard within reach of his hook up cable !!”
That’s very worrying Damian, each supply outlet on a site bollard should be protected by it's own individual circuit breaker. If it was to trip more than the one cb supplying your individual supply it would suggest to me that the site’s power supply has been incorrectly installed.

 

[ProfJohnL]

“Then I come across one individual who decided that it was Ok to wire a double pole switch with the Live going straight to Neutral, and wondered why he had tripped every power bollard within reach of his hook up cable !!”
That’s very worrying Damian, each supply outlet on a site bollard should be protected by it's own individual circuit breaker. If it was to trip more than the one cb supplying your individual supply it would suggest to me that the site’s power supply has been incorrectly installed.

I'm pretty sure Damian was implying the person tried his EHU in each bollard it could reach, not that all the bollards tripped when he plugged into just one.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...

Damian,
Perhaps the problem is that I grew up in the era of Practical Wireless and Practical Television etc, when 'practical' meant fixing and even building your own radios and even colour TVs. This meaning of the word is still alive and well on forums such as Practcal Boat Owner, where the intricacies of engines/electrics/gas systems/etc etc are discussed freely in minute detail. The one answer very seldom heard is 'leave it for the boatyard to do'.

It seems that in the Caravan world, 'Practical' has a different interpretation?

Like Damian I have had to sort out many bodged DIY attempts at repairs or modifications in caravans, some which have caused serious injury to the perpetrator or their families. It shocks me to see some of the things that shows a total lack of knowledge have been done in the name of common sense, which shows why you should never rely on it.

It also worries me when someone tells they've started to strip something down and then asks for detailed information which raises serious doubt about their competency to have started the job yet alone finish what they've started. Especially with gas and electrical matters where doing it wrong can have serious consequences, and where there are legal restrictions or responsibilities.

There are now many more regulations now than there used to be, and it does mean things that you or I might have done with impunity in years gone by are now more closely controlled, or perhaps they are more likely to be detected, but caravanning can no longer be simply regarded as free for all hobby where any botch job will do.

Professionals in so many walks of life now have to protect themselves from the public who have taken on the "blame culture" that started in the USA and will sue the pants off you, just for forgetting to warn you that fire might burn you. Don't forget that the anonymity of the forum cannot be guaranteed, if someone decided to legally challenge advice or a comment you have made.

 

[Parksy]

We're beginning to lose sight of the OP, which is not about site 230v electrics.
Sorry Prof, I took your most recent comment down from the message board
We're not Rumpole of the Bailey and the advisability of tampering with gas installations is nothing to do with this thread.
Some of us might advise caution for various reasons, but it's for each individual to decide for themselves what modifications, if any, they carry out on their own caravan.

 

[Volly]

That would then sugest he would be unplugging other users from there supply.
Each pitch has its own allocated supply, or if on a communal bolard outlets are usually numbered to corespond with the pitch they are supplying.
But we are hair splitting here, and as Parksy has suggested not what the OP was asking for.

A simple way to upgrade any device in a caravan (DC) would be to incorporate a relay using the existing fused supply to feed the primary side of the relay, then run the secondary side in the appropriate SWG with a fuse of the correct rating.

 

[Grey13]

The technical answer is, check the wire size then look up the current rating for that wire. A suitable fuse will protect that or be designed to cover the equipment it is feeding. Another factor you cannot really check is the overall power supply and distribution from the 12V system. The panel probably has carefully worked out limits for power sharing and battery / charger supplies. I would be careful changing things without understanding all aspects of the design. However it begs the question, why would anyone want a "more powerful pump"? Systems are designed to work as a whole. IMO the pipe work will not burst with the pressure the installed pump can deliver at static or flow conditions. I have read about a few instances where a larger pump has been fitted and the folk were on a swimming holiday "right inside their van". (Burst pipe) That aside, larger pump probably means larger flows, well larger flows will mean the "hot water supply" will run out much quicker, so if you are looking for a 2 minute hot water shower followed by 10 minutes cold water, don't be surprised.

 

[Parksy]

I'm sorry to say that I've removed another off topic comment, but questions from new members are no longer going to be answered with reams of technical debate which have very little to do with the question which was asked.
The O.P asked if his water pump circuit could take a more powerful pump and about the location of the ancillary switches.
These protracted off topic debates are putting new and existing forum members off from continuing to use this forum.
Admin are aware of this and have asked for this tendency to be addressed
Debates about 230v electrical systems in this instance need to be on a new and separate topic.

 

[Beehpee]

Hi Parksy your last post is the best thing I’ve seen on here of late.

BP

 

[VicMallows]

Returning to the OP..................

I am sure that someone on this thread did mention the use of a relay to overcome any possible problem with overloading a circuit. (I cannot now find it, so maybe it was within a removed post).

Whilst abroad this winter the microswitch in one of my taps developed a slightly high resistance, with the result that that tap would not always start the pump (you could 'kick' it into action by momentarily turning on another tap). Rather that stripping down the tap and trying to source a new microswitch, I simply added a relay close to the pump (I of course carry a few spare relays in my spares box ).

As well as being a much easier and quicker solution, a side benefit is that the submersible pump now runs considerably faster due to the reduced circuit resistance, and hopefully the microswitches will now all outlast the caravan.