Whale IC panel - water circuit max current?

[Dustydog]

I know, certainly on our caravan, there's a five amp fuse for the water pump, but does anyone know the maximum current the circuit could in fact take if a more powerful pump were fitted and the fuse uprated accordingly? Whale are playing dumb on this, answering my question by simply giving me a link to a PDF download about their range of pumps and then ignoring the follow up email pointing out that wasn't the question!

More generally, out of interest, is water, heating and water heater all switched within the Intelligent Control panel and if so how (relays, solid-state relays, power transistors, or are there relays hidden away somewhere under seats or somewhere else perhaps?)

Back to basics.
Is your pump the submersible type in the aqua roll?
What is the wattage of your original and the one you propose.
Two caravans back I did upgrade the submersible pump which was 11 Watts more the the original. I didn’t change any of the wiring or fuses.
There is a built in tolerance but you still need to know both the fuse rating and wiring maximum.
There is a school of thought that says the manufacturer of the upgraded pump knows the standard wiring can take the extra current. But please do check yourself first

 

[Dustydog]

I'm sorry to say that I've removed another off topic comment, but questions from new members are no longer going to be answered with reams of technical debate which have very little to do with the question which was asked.
The O.P asked if his water pump circuit could take a more powerful pump and about the location of the ancillary switches.
These protracted off topic debates are putting new and existing forum members off from continuing to use this forum.
Admin are aware of this and have asked for this tendency to be addressed
Debates about 230v electrical systems in this instance need to be on a new and separate topic.

Parksy,
Is there any way you / Lizzie can set up,another subject matter page where the usual heavy debates can take place without upsetting newbies?

 

[Damian]

Parksy,
Is there any way you / Lizzie can set up,another subject matter page where the usual heavy debates can take place without upsetting newbies?

This is something which would be very difficult to put into practice as a lot of the in depth factual information is something which has benefits, not only for new users but also "old hands".
If an individual wanted a full scale University course in a particular topic, then as long as the person with the knowledge is willing, we could provide both parties with each others email address so that they may communicate as much as they want to.

 

[Parksy]

Forum discussions and debates can be interesting and very informative Dustydog, there's nothing inherently wrong with technical debates.....but
it's been mentioned publicly on the message boards and privately to me via emails and also the report button that some relatively simple questions, often but not exclusively from newbies, are replied to quite satisfactorily as far as the O.P. is concerned.
The problems begin when usually longer term experienced caravanners expand a newbie query that had already been answered, to explore fairly detailed but unasked for technical details and obscure legal theories which lose the original query in a blizzard of data. The original topic is hi-jacked and it's not very helpful when this happens.
The hapless new member usually doesn't complain, most of them disappear never to be heard from again and it's not what we want to happen.
All that I'm trying to do is to keep topics more or less on track to try to avoid further complaints.
There are technical, safety and potential legal issues associated with owning and using a touring caravan, and many of these have been discussed on the message boards quite a few times by all of us so the information is available via the forum search facility, most of it is on this website if people care to look for it, and it's all in the public domain.
I don't enjoy removing posts or upsetting people, this forum is for everyone to use and to enjoy, but when newbies are constantly lectured by us and warned about every possible mishap which might happen time after time, I receive complaints and even hints that forum members intend to stop using this forum because they dislike the tendency to veer too far off topic that we're all guilty of now and again.
Discussions and debates can quite easily take place on the existing message boards, all that is required is for a person who seeks such a discussion to start a topic on it, no problem at all.
If that can happen we won't scare the newbies and those considering buying a caravan away, and the debaters and theorisers can debate with no complaint from anyone because if a person doesn't want to take part all that they have to do is to avoid that thread.
I'll contact Lizzie tomorrow though.

 

[Parksy]

Parksy,
Is there any way you / Lizzie can set up,another subject matter page where the usual heavy debates can take place without upsetting newbies?

This is something which would be very difficult to put into practice as a lot of the in depth factual information is something which has benefits, not only for new users but also "old hands".
If an individual wanted a full scale University course in a particular topic, then as long as the person with the knowledge is willing, we could provide both parties with each others email address so that they may communicate as much as they want to.

Damian beat me to the draw! :lol:
I try to be diplomatic, but Damian's comment sums it up perfectly!

 

[BaileyNiggles]

Going back to Grey13's reply, before this thread has mostly, save for one or two sensible replies, been hijacked by lots of words about lots of tangential points, yes, I can make my own judgement about the wiring but was principally or even solely concerned about how things are switched within or via the IC panel and what current that can take.

We currently have the standard (not High Flow) Watermaster pump but find the shower lacking a little ooomph, and for whatever reason the toilet's hand basin pretty dismal.

I want to get hold of a used old Watermaster pump off ebay or somewhere just for the connector plug, as they seem unavailable standalone for DIY projects, and then try a Comet Ocean soft-start pump. Typical or max. load is 5A, so I don't know whether to upgrade the existing fuse, either current-wise or see if a delayed action slow burn one might be available so as to explore whether the 5A load is only a peak momentary one.

Water usage might increase but propose to link our existing two tanks by a connecting siphon hose, or variation on the theme.

Well done those others trying to put the practical back into Practical Caravan!

 

[Grey13]

Hi. Not sure I understand fully but my one comment is, if you are replacing (basically) one 5 amp rated pump with another then there should be no problem. i do not know your system so simply because I am interested in any mods that may increase either flow and or volume of (hot) water perhaps explain it a little better. Am I correct that the current pump is built in, in the van and that the new one you wish to try will be in the supply "aqua roll" outside or what. Do you have 2 on board tanks already and if so what capacity is each, are both heated and a bit of info about the heating? Anyway there is not more I can ask or say right now.

 

[Hutch]

Bailey niggles, you mention that the flow to the shower and Bathroom taps have not , a very good Oomph, have you checked the tap filters and the shower head for blockages, we replaced our shower head for a bigger one that are now being fitted as standard to a lot of caravans, Ecocamel, which has been proven to be great

 

[BaileyNiggles]

Current set up: Outboard Aquarolls, dangly Whale plug-in-the-side pump, believe current pump something like 3.6A. Want to leave everything the same apart from changing the pump on the end of the blue dangly bit.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is an unwritten convention that pump manufacturers will rate their pumps by their normal running current and not their peak current.

DC electric motors always draw their maximum peak current when they are stalled and are not moving. This actually happens every time you start a motor before teh rotor actually turns. As soon as the spindle starts to turn, the current through the motor will reduce and begin to settle down at a lower value.

With small motors this normally takes a small fraction of a second. The stall current is determined by the dc resistance of the rotor wingdings and can be several times the normal running current. For this reason the fuses fitted in DC motor circuits should be slow blow. These fuses can usually pass the short term peak currents and allow the motor to get up to speed.

I suggest if you can try a higher rated pump, and if it does not blow the fuse all's well. IF the fuse does rupture, then you have to check teh rating of the wires between the pump and the source of the current, and maybe a larger fuse can be fitted. But never fit a fuse that is rated more that the weakest part of a circuit.

 

[BaileyNiggles]

Hmmm, so is the [what type] switch the weakest part, that was the root of the original post?! Has anyone ever dismantled an IC panel??

 

[Dustydog]

Hmmm, so is the [what type] switch the weakest part, that was the root of the original post?! Has anyone ever dismantled an IC panel??

Looking at the Whale website, they do three submersible pumps rated st 10,12 or14 litres per minute. Their most powerful one uses 3.6 amps and requires a 5 amp fuse, which you currently have.
Your proposed Ocean model shows a wattage variation between 48 and 60 which as you realise as do others on here takes you to the edge. However my main concern is that the Ocean is producing 22psi. Have you established the maximum pressure rating of your plumbing?
Have you thought about an in line booster pump as an alternative solution?

 

[BaileyNiggles]

Good point, though I see 22psi converts to 1.5 bar, which is what I also note the Whale Watermaster Mains connection, also known as the Aquasource, limits the incoming tap pressure to, so if internal plumbing is good enough for an Aquasource inlet then I'm assuming its good for a pump, which will in any case also shut off pretty soon from the inlet's microswitch.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Good point, though I see 22psi converts to 1.5 bar, which is what I also note the Whale Watermaster Mains connection, also known as the Aquasource, limits the incoming tap pressure to, so if internal plumbing is good enough for an Aquasource inlet then I'm assuming its good for a pump, which will in any case also shut off pretty soon from the inlet's microswitch.

Don't forget that as storage water heaters raise the cold water to a higher temperature it also will raise the pressure in the hot system. All good water heaters will have a maximum cold fill pressure. IF you exceed that as it heats up the pressure may exceed the safety margins of the heater and or the fittings in the hot pipe water work, though to be fair all good water heaters should incorporate an over pressure dump valve.

Referring back to the point about narrow gauge wires, I cannot comment about the curent capacity of teh components in teh panel you are referring too, but I can comments about the size of wire fitted to many micro switches fitted in taps, which is generally of a smaller gauge than teh wiring in a caravan. However those switches are not used for pressure controlled systems.

 

[BaileyNiggles]

Well, out of the blue response from someone talking some semi-detailed sense at Whale after one or two earlier messages were just blatant fob offs, so credit to them for answering an enquiry still evidently rattling around on their radar as being unfulfilled. Though it doesn't immediately fit my visualisation from bed of the caravan wiring out there in the dark storage site the answer is.... the IC panel communicates wirelessly with a receiving module near the plumbing in question, and it's the receiving module which gets unhappy above 5A. Gosh.

 

[otherclive]

Well, out of the blue response from someone talking some semi-detailed sense at Whale after one or two earlier messages were just blatant fob offs, so credit to them for answering an enquiry still evidently rattling around on their radar as being unfulfilled Though it doesn't immediately fit my visualisation from bed of the caravan wiring out there in the dark storage site the answer is.... the IC panel communicates wirelessly with a receiving module near the plumbing in question, and it's the receiving module which gets unhappy above 5A. Gosh.

ttt

Well that's something for the books a reply at last, and a somewhat surprising statement that even component parts are now wifi linked. Hope the designers have made it tolerant to interference. On balance I think I prefer wiring as if it gets 'tatty' you can follow it through and if necessary install new wires.

 

[Dustydog]

Well, out of the blue response from someone talking some semi-detailed sense at Whale after one or two earlier messages were just blatant fob offs, so credit to them for answering an enquiry still evidently rattling around on their radar as being unfulfilled Though it doesn't immediately fit my visualisation from bed of the caravan wiring out there in the dark storage site the answer is.... the IC panel communicates wirelessly with a receiving module near the plumbing in question, and it's the receiving module which gets unhappy above 5A. Gosh.

ttt

Well that's something for the books a reply at last, and a somewhat surprising statement that even component parts are now wifi linked. Hope the designers have made it tolerant to interference. On balance I think I prefer wiring as if it gets 'tatty' you can follow it through and if necessary install new wires.

Clive
Will my Alexa Blue tooth mess things up :silly:

 

[otherclive]

Well, out of the blue response from someone talking some semi-detailed sense at Whale after one or two earlier messages were just blatant fob offs, so credit to them for answering an enquiry still evidently rattling around on their radar as being unfulfilled Though it doesn't immediately fit my visualisation from bed of the caravan wiring out there in the dark storage site the answer is.... the IC panel communicates wirelessly with a receiving module near the plumbing in question, and it's the receiving module which gets unhappy above 5A. Gosh.

ttt

Well that's something for the books a reply at last, and a somewhat surprising statement that even component parts are now wifi linked. Hope the designers have made it tolerant to interference. On balance I think I prefer wiring as if it gets 'tatty' you can follow it through and if necessary install new wires.

Clive
Will my Alexa Blue tooth mess things up :silly:

Dusty
Unlikely as it should be on a different frequency. Things like electrical spikes, remotes, phones especially older models etc might have an effect. But who knows until something doesn’t work. But at least knowing there’s such a WiFi link between systems allows some diagnosis to proceed by removing potential sources of interference and progressively checking the effect.