wheel came off new caravan

[Lutz]

No car manufacturer produces his own wheels, but they certainly do design, develop and test them themselves to their own specifications. Factory-fitted alloy wheels are definitely not "off the shelf" items, like the ones you would buy from a car accessory shop. On the other hand, I doubt whether any caravan manufacturer has the resources to create their own designs, but rely on what they hope is a reputable source.

 

[Guest]

Lutz

Yes I'm aware that car manufacturers design their own look for wheels but I think wheel manufacturers are fairly limited in number and produce wheels for numerous comapanies, be they car manufacturers or custom wheels companies.

There must be various standards for wheels and surely there must be a TUV standard or testing.

I can't see that caravan wheels bought in by the manufacturers wouldn't be fit for car use or are constructed to a lesser standard.

 

[Lutz]

Euro,

As you are probably aware, over here in Germany vehicles must be presented to the T

 

[gary]

From Tyreline's website, Rimstock designed/produce caravan alloy wheels as they do for a great deal of the car manufactures, I would sincerely hope then, that rules out any design/material error.

Further to reading and agreeing the research by Collyn Rivers, I emailed asking of my beliefs and my surprise at it's lack of mention in his notes as well as other material posted on the Internet? he very kindly replied thus..

Interesting question that has not risen so far (for me at least) from Australian and NZ readers, perhaps because in both countries it is routine practice for tyre fitters to balance all wheels and tyres to within 10 grm.

It is certainly possible that wheel out of balance could cause wheel nuts to work loose if the imbalance is sufficient to generate a bending moment across the threads. I doubt if the Alko suspension is involved as that is commonly used here too - even on off-road trailers.

Kind regards

Collyn Rivers

There is a further observation regarding the use of alloy wheels and cone mountings but needs clarification, I'll post that later if still relevant.

 

[hublock]

Kenneth.

In my case a thirty mile check would not have been a lot of good! My mistake was many years ago, my children were young I had the caravan jacked up and had serviced the brakes and wheel bearings and adjusted the hand brake etc.

I tightened the wheels firmly before taking the van off the jack, I then torqued the wheels on the off side and then got called away by one of my children to help my wife as we were on a tight schedule and hada ferry to catch.

My mistake, for once I never went back and rechecked. The wheel came off on route to the ferry about two miles from departure!

My mistake, my human error. I have the honesty to stand up and admit that.

I didn't want my wife and children thinking that a wheel could pop off at any time, we'd not been over 25mph between leaving and when it came off and were actually pulling away from lights. I owned up as I realised my mistake!

What has Bolt Sciences client list got to do with wheels falling off? There are lots of nuts and bolts on cars, and you have no idea what they use the Software for! Is it wheels and hubs and wheel bolts?

If you search the Bolt Science site re wheels, it gives most case of wheel problems linked to stud faiure caused by fatigue, there is also mention of incorrect tightening. And they seem to to say that the main problems are with HGV not cars or caravan wheels, no mention of dissapearing caravan wheels.

My point from many weeks ago is that you do the wheels bolts up correctly and you dont't have wheels falling off.

Modern Alloy wheels are harder and stronger than years ago and modern manufacturing processes and the alloy mixes used are less porous.

I believe that caravan alloys are made by major manufactureres of car alloys and to the same exacting standards. If a caravan wheel has a "soft" bolt seating allowing bolts to loosen we believe the wheel has a fault.

My F1 engineer brother will tell you that in all his years of car building and racing, parts drop of due to human failure virtually every time. Teams may not admit that in public but that's the fact! And they don't have time to stop and do up there one bolt on a race car wheel after 30 miles, they either do the job correctly or they have wheels bouncing in to the crowds or marshall or other drivers.

I have an interest in F1 motor racing and I can assure you parts do fall off due to design failings.

Ross Brawn could confirm that, after the accident with the rear wing during practice for the Hungarian GP.

Hopefully Massa has now made a full recovery.

 

[John_374408534]

May I suggest that Loctite 243 may be the ideal to retain the wheel screws to the drum. It is the variety which can be dismantled with ordinary tools whilst some of the other grades are more permanent.

Also a light application of anti-seize copper such as Loctite 8065 on the wheel to drum interface will ensure that they don't corrode together.

Please confirm these recommendations with Loctite technical services as I did.

 

[John_374408534]

Lost wheel syndrome has been happening for as long as i can remember,and i can remember the last 30years in the transport business,My own fathers fleet of leylands and bedfords suffered.Times long now gone,but back then they used left hand threads ie n/s tighten to the front.Had no effect.

The then ministry of transport looked into it,before deciding to prosicute the operator.

Dead simple-clean faces,oiled threads,good spigots,no oval holes,torqued to correct figure with a torque wrench,and not over tightened as this is just as bad,re-torque after 30 mins.

Good advice perhaps but NO OIL ON THE THREADS please; this is completely wrong and results in the parts suffering excessive elongation

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

I am familiar with the thread lock compounds. They certainly can help to retain the security of an assembly, however historically wheel bolts on most vehicles have proven to be more than adequate to keep wheels on, there should be no need for added security.

The loss of a wheel is a serious matter, and it should be established what caused it. If there is a common cause for it then it is important that the matter is fully researched and a proper solution found.

The difficulty is that at the moment we have no reliable data. We do not know what the extent of the problem really is, and we don't know the causes are, not forgetting there may be more than one, and the cause may be nothing to do with the design or materials.

Given the uncertainty I can understand the desire to have a belt and braces approach to wheel security.

 

[gary]

The question was asked by SBS on the 4th of December about anyone being interested in wheel nut indicators designed to fit alloy wheels with recessed nuts/bolts, not one reply?

Regardless then, I do know they are very shortly to be available in bright yellow for anyone that is interested?

 

[Sproket]

Gary

Have you got a photo to show what they look like & any idea of cost ?

The last link i saw was for steel wheels.

 

[gary]

The standard ones to fit steel wheels are a simple flat piece of plastic with a serrated hole to fit exactly in position on the nut. These are the same but atop a serrated socket/tube to reach down the recess onto the nut.

I don't know about retail cost, lots of variables I'd imagine, not least, 8 or 10 in a pack? and allied to that, there's locking nuts to consider, their different?

Then there's single or twin axle, that doubles the cost for some but not others!

I think that's why the second part of the question was asked?

 

[Entwood]

If I recall correctly from a few years back .. so prices will have gone up but not THAT much ..a full set of LGV wheels, which required indicators on ALL nuts .. and on a 16 wheeler thats a lot of nuts !!! ... could be replaced for less than

 

[SBS]

From Nigel: "IMHO the majority of folks would refuse to encumber their pretty alloy wheels with what they would consider to be tacky plastic indicators ...."

What do others think? Would they look better in black rather than bright yellow? Would YOU buy a set?

Costings to follow - depends on the interest and volumes.

Mike

 

[Royston]

A blob of any colour paint on the edge of the nut will indicate if the nut moves .

 

[marlot]

From Nigel: "IMHO the majority of folks would refuse to encumber their pretty alloy wheels with what they would consider to be tacky plastic indicators ...."

What do others think? Would they look better in black rather than bright yellow? Would YOU buy a set?

Costings to follow - depends on the interest and volumes.

Mike

I'd buy them in black

 

[seth1]

Why would a person choose to use locktight on either a wheel stud or nut.Its unheard of,it begs the question would the locktight sustain the heat of the drums,and what would result if say,the debis between the rim face and hub face(not cleaned properly)became detatched i.e leaving an excessive clearance.Yes perhaps tight fixings for a period,until either the holes became oval resulting in a detatched wheel or simply sheard studs or bolts.

There should be no issues with caravan wheels as they are trailing and not driven,greatly reducing stress loading. If correct procedures are adered to i.e using calibrated equipment instead of "that will do,ive done it for years" and correct procedures followed,failures should be limited.

 

[xtrailman]

seth

that argument does not hold, i have never used a torque wrench on my car or van, nor lost a wheel.

Some that have torqued the wheel nuts have still lost a wheel

 

[seth1]

Sorry RAY,but it does hold.Why, because its recommended by just about every manufacture in caravaning through to passenger cars to commercial vehicles to just about all propriety fixings.Its a standard.Do you have any idea what torque is on your fixings after you,ve "barred" them up.For instance are they overtightend?There is no way people should be incoureging people to dismiss use of torque wrenches because they,ve been lucky for the past 20 years.

What would happen if the wheel came of and killed someone,quite clearly the question asked would be,"was the wheel fixings torque to correct figures"."No just barred up".

The whole idea is to do away with human error.

 

[xtrailman]

seth

you need to face facts, wheels have still come off, even after being professionally fitted.

 

[seth1]

RAY,dont try to justify your actions because you think your method is correct.How you service your caravan is your busines and no one elses but dont recommend this method to others.

Its perhaps a fair comment to say professionally fitted wheels have still come detatched but whats to say catergorically the correct,correct prodedure was adered to?

If makers didnt think the need for use of a torque indicator why recommend it?

 

[xtrailman]

If my method is incorrect. Then you need to contact both bailey, and nissan. The companies that supply the tool to replace the wheel, which as you know is NOT a torque wrench.

How people chose to fit there own wheels is not the discussion here.

What we are trying to establish (i thought) is WHY wheels are coming off.

As i have already stated, wheels HAVE come off that have been torque on. True or false?

 

[seth1]

Totally agree RAY,it is your business and not everybody elses thats why i choose to type it,so why tell people how you choose to secure your own.

Why not answer any of my questions,why put the doubt in peoples mind regarding specific torque values having no input,surely putting a torque wrench on a fastner is a safer bet than "that will do"

Yes we are trying to establish the answer to lost wheel syndrome as did certain organisations in past years,with far more resources and experiance than most of us.

The answer seemed to sway towards good preparation on mating sufaces,the use of a torque device,clean lubed threads,and regular sevicing.

If your refering to angle torque,it is seen as a better value and more accurate.

 

[hublock]

Hello Seth,

I did try to give some positive answers on 11th December, it's amazing there are now 198 postings on this subject.

I would suggest you read that posting again without being sidetracked by some of the irrelevant ramblings that followed.

I doubt there is a design fault, rather a procedural fault in the fitting and subsequent checking of wheel bolts.

It appears to come down to having enough clamping force to prevent sideways movement of the wheel and hub assembly. This is explained in the following article, so I will not repeat it word for word.

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/tsequence.htm
The fixing bolts should be in tension only, as no movement between the wheel and the hub is possible if the CLAMPING FORCE is maintained.

It is the BEDDING DOWN of the wheels, and the fixing bolts in their conical mounting holes that can reduce the CLAMPING FORCE and allow movement between the wheel and hub.

If the bolts are checked after 30 miles as recommended the correct CLAMPING FORCE can be restored.

One thing that has changed over the years is that wheel studs were part of the wheel hub assembly, so when it came to fitting a wheel you had something to hang the wheel on.

Today it's more of a struggle having to locate the wheel bolts while holding the full weight of the wheel and tyre. This could be part of the problem as it's quite easy to tighten the bolts to the correct torque settings without realising that the wheel and bolts are not perfectly seated.

Wheel Hangers are a useful aid here by supporting the full load of the wheel and tyre and aligning the holes in the wheels and hubs.

The wheel fixing bolts can now be fitted, and fastened in sequence to the correct recommended torque settings.

http://www.jsbhublock.co.uk/6.html
For anyone who's never used a torque wrench in 20 years and never lost a wheel, that's not unusual, I'm in that category. But until the original posting by John (7th June) I'd never thought much about it. I never checked wheel bolts after 30 miles because I didn't realise the potential for the loss of a wheel.

Having now done a bit of research I understand and will make sure I do follow the recommended procedures.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Using the correct procedure to refit wheels is of course the bets possible action.

It is certainly no bad thing to ensure that both mating surfaces are clean and free from debris, that might get trapped between the hub and rim as the bolts/nuts are tightened.

And then a torque wrench should be used, mainly to ensure the correct torque is applied, but just as importantly to ensure the wheel is evenly tightened home.

That should be enough to ensure the security of the assembly. But if the manufacture recommends that wheel nuts should be rechecked after a few miles, then that should also become a standard action for caravanners where the recommendation is made.

I do not condone Ray's non-measured approach, because you have no way of knowing if enough torque has been applied, or if too much has been applied, or if all the fasteners have been equally torqued.

I do not ignore Ray's accretion that he has never had a wheel come loose, but the fact is the are many drivers and caravanners who can say exactly the same thing who do not necessarily use Ray's method. As we do not have the necessary facts and data to make any valid comparisons between vans that have survived and those that have failed, we cannot draw any valid conclusion or assign any greater value to Ray's approach than any other. Ray's example of one in such a large sample is not statistically significant, and it would be dangerously wrong to simply accept it as the explanation and solution to all the incidents that have occurred.

 

[ShadySadie]

I've been towing caravans and trailers for to many years to remember. Towed long distance in Europe long before internet help or having a mobile to hand.

I've been around cars most of my life and even I can line a wheel up and I changed wheels long before a Norbar was de rigueur in any sensible boy racers home tool box.

I just can not see that yet another gadget like the JSB Wheel Hanger is needed in caravanners over burdened aray of equipment.

If anyone is really concerned that they can't tighten a wheel correctly to prevent it falling off they shouldn't be on the road.

Tow hitch bolts seem to stay attached to A frames along with tow bars and tow ball bolts.

At the rate this thread is going we'll be barred from touching wheel bolts unless we've completed a 3 year apprentiship!