When is Leaking more likely?

[ProfJohnL]

... You can't blame the manufacturers for third party parts and those suppliers are VERY few! Caravans are essentailly a kit of parts assembled by a maker-the shell is really all they do!

Sorry but I have to disagree. I worked for an OEM who also supplied caravan manufacturers. I know that our products were fully functional as they left our production, because their serial number could only be produced when the appliance had successfully completed a series of legally required tests. This was all operated under the control of a BS EN ISO 9001 QA system (edit or its predecessors). Part of that QA process also verified products as they reached the customer to also prove the delivery system which was our own transport.

We had no control once the product was handed over to the caravan manufacturer's. From that point on we regularly received back product which was claimed to be "faulty as supplied", but after investigation was found to have been poorly stored evidenced by stillages covered in dust, or partly filled with water. Products with essential parts missing (they could not have passed our final tests with these bits missing) Products physically bent some with fork lift truck wheel marks. Some with rectangular fork truck blade holes pushed all the the way through, Other manufacturers products bodged onto ours... need I say more? Well to be fair this was over 20 years ago, but have things changed? I doubt it.

Frankly it's quite amazing that any caravans get manufactured without apparent faults. What about the faults you can't see that may cause the product to deteriorate before its time.

I sincerely hope that caravan manufacturers do try harder and the numbers of totally satisfied buyers do get zero defect caravans. If they can do it once, they should be able to do it every time.

 

[Thingy]

If they can do it once, they should be able to do it every time.

Now that I completely agree with.

 

[JezzerB]

... You can't blame the manufacturers for third party parts and those suppliers are VERY few! Caravans are essentailly a kit of parts assembled by a maker-the shell is really all they do!

Sorry but I have to disagree. I worked for an OEM who also supplied caravan manufacturers. I know that our products were fully functional as they left our production, because their serial number could only be produced when the appliance had successfully completed a series of legally required tests. This was all operated under the control of a BS EN ISO 9001 QA system (edit or its predecessors). Part of that QA process also verified products as they reached the customer to also prove the delivery system which was our own transport.

We had no control once the product was handed over to the caravan manufacturer's. From that point on we regularly received back product which was claimed to be "faulty as supplied", but after investigation was found to have been poorly stored evidenced by stillages covered in dust, or partly filled with water. Products with essential parts missing (they could not have passed our final tests with these bits missing) Products physically bent some with fork lift truck wheel marks. Some with rectangular fork truck blade holes pushed all the the way through, Other manufacturers products bodged onto ours... need I say more? Well to be fair this was over 20 years ago, but have things changed? I doubt it.

Frankly it's quite amazing that any caravans get manufactured without apparent faults. What about the faults you can't see that may cause the product to deteriorate before its time.

I sincerely hope that caravan manufacturers do try harder and the numbers of totally satisfied buyers do get zero defect caravans. If they can do it once, they should be able to do it every time.

GOOD GRIEF; I eat my words-amazing but given the issues people seem to have it does give food for thought! Serious work to do then; hope Eldis production line is benefitting from Hymer experience even though they are both owned by an American company!!! They really did ought to take advice from the car manufacturing sector-seeing the care and attention that goes inot the mini line at Cowley makes you realise human error is hardly possible!

 

[ProfJohnL]

GOOD GRIEF; I eat my words-amazing but given the issues people seem to have it does give food for thought! Serious work to do then; hope Eldis production line is benefitting from Hymer experience even though they are both owned by an American company!!! They really did ought to take advice from the car manufacturing sector-seeing the care and attention that goes inot the mini line at Cowley makes you realise human error is hardly possible!

Part of good design should incorporate measures to prevent the incorrect assembly of parts, or should include detailed protocols to guarantee that systems are sufficiently inspected to ensure the elimination of non conformances that will cause or lead to product failure. This is a philosophy that I have supported for many years.

There are those that have commented that its not possible for caravan manufacturers to use the same level of automation as the car industry, but it's really about each production operative taking pride in doing a job right first time, and reviewing the operation they're involved with to ensure its been done correctly sometimes called self inspection. By using such a scheme, product quality can improve waste and scrappage is reduced, and often both production quantities and profitability can rise.

 

[Parksy]

A browse through this and other similar forum posts would suggest that buyers of touring caravans in the UK are buying a very shoddy product which is very poorly designed and built to standards similar to those which applied at British Leyland in it's darkest days.
While I agree that there is always room for improvement and that there is no doubt that some shoddy products make it to the dealers showrooms, we are in danger of examining the build quality situation through the prism of the multitude of forum posts on this and other caravan forums which give details of problems and breakages.
Internet forums such as this one are a form of peer driven social media which can highlight genuine design faults early on (the early model Bailey Pegasus front panel stone chip problem for example, or over-stressed end panel cracking on other models), but not every forum query or complaint is with regard to new caravans and nothing lasts for ever without regular care and maintenance.
In 2017 there were over 22,000 brand new touring caravans sold in the UK, and the number of complaints on internet forums about faulty new caravans represents a very small percentage of the numbers sold.
Most of the technical queries concern fittings and fixtures from caravans that are not brand new, that are in regular use by families and which are repairable.
Manufacturers have clearly recognised the historic problems with water ingress because timber free construction materials are becoming widely used, longer term body panel warranties are becoming the norm and large volume manufacturers like Swift and Bailey have introduced modern efficient construction methods which is why they are market leaders in a still buoyant market.
Social media will eventually identify and weed out the manufacturers of poorer designed and built touring caravans who fail to keep up, so although I agree that manufacturers should aim to get their products 100% right every single time, if I was in the market for a brand new caravan I'd be confident enough to but a Swift or Bailey model despite the doom and gloom that is an inevitable facet of technically oriented caravan related forums.

 

[JezzerB]

As I think I have implied I am a bit of a 'complainer sceptic'. Even modern car makers produce the odd off car inspite of the many ways they have to eliminate human error etc. We always try to remember that our caravan is built to be as light as possible-or else no one will tow them, with a huge variety of kit in them ie heat , water and cooling that is able to be heated/cooled by both gas and electricity. They are amazing things and are subjected to forces ie being towed, lived in, externally very cold and very warm that are incredible. Never ceases to amaze me how good they are. We've had one old caravan and one brand new one and have been delighted with both. We don't read the horror stories or if we do take them with a pinch of salt; few people praise, these days-the complainers seem to have loud voices. I tell anyone I can how good our Pegasus was-and still reckon the bit of chrome bubbling on one tap, and the leaky toilet cassette were not of Bailey's making .its construction was fantastic-not even a cupboard door need adjusting when we sold it, and we look forward to our Bucaneer. We are also proud to support UK industry and wouldn't consider a continental caravan for that reason..(I know they are now usa owned but they are still made in Consett0.

 

[Parksy]

Well said Jezzer!
We used to read a lot about the supposedly fantastic build quality of German built caravans but on a seasonal site that we used to stay on a couple pitched their Hobby, left after the weekend and the window fell out while they were gone, I covered the hole with plastic until they came back and dealt with it.
The other Hobby that I had a look round at an NEC show, an outwardly fantastic beast with blacked out windows had plastic covered in artificial 'chrome' locker handles which looked cheap and tacky and no washroom which probably wouldn't appeal to the UK tourer market for the prices they were asking.
In 2007 a few forum users met the then CEO of Swift caravans in Cottingham and he admitted that he was ashamed of the companies previous output and he resolved to take measures to improve the situation.
I'd argue that since 2010 UK caravan design and build quality has improved beyond measure.
There's always room for improvement of course but for me UK caravans are better designed and equipped than any models commonly on sale in Europe.
(puts tin hat on and hides behind sofa :lol: )

 

[Hutch]

As you said " ready for Flack. "
Only speaking for my French touring, the season is in the fine , dry weather, and it finishes by August , they "Normally have smaller caravans than our UK ones, with much larger Awnings . Which they live in, with fridges and at times frezzers, which they move back to storage after the season ends. I seldom see French tourists after, September.
Lutz will tell us more about The Western tourers I am sure.

So therefore their Caravans are maybe not checked for damp as our UK ones are.

 

[otherclive]

As you said " ready for Flack. "
Only speaking for my French touring, the season is in the fine , dry weather, and it finishes by August , they "Normally have smaller caravans than our UK ones, with much larger Awnings . Which they live in, with fridges and at times frezzers, which they move back to storage after the season ends. I seldom see French tourists after, September.
Lutz will tell us more about The Western tourers I am sure.

So therefore there Caravans are maybe not checked for damp as our UK ones are.

The European Road surfaces are better than ours and probably subject the chassis and body to less stress and flexure. But unless the European owners keep their caravans in covered storage or use covers they would be susceptible to water ingress.
I recall some years back when Hymer introduced a U.K. spec caravan with the door on the UK side they suffered rippling of the bodywork in the section of sidewall above the door. U.K. nearside potholes?

 

[ProfJohnL]

There's always room for improvement of course but for me UK caravans are better designed and equipped than any models commonly on sale in Europe.
(puts tin hat on and hides behind sofa :lol: )

I have carefully stayed away from suggesting that foreign manufacturers are better than UK as I'm sure there are good and bad out there as well

As for UK being better designed, I cant argue about layouts, as that is very much a personal matter. When it comes to the included equipment, there are some significant differences, but that will be down to differences in the way that continentals tend to caravan, where there is a tendency to use the caravan as a dormitory rather than a living space.

When it comes to the technical design of panel joints and the specification of materials, then again there will be differences because each company will have their own preferences. Without having detailed analysis of problems and causes, I could not say whether UK vans are better or worse.

It is valid to criticise manufacturers when satisfaction surveys still show up to 30% of new owners have some issues with new products. It really does not matter whether the problems are with OEM equipment or not, the fact is the whole caravan is purchased from one dealer, and it's the customer who is being inconvenience regardless of whose equipment has failed. The seller is legally responsible for compliance with the CRA.

I would also question the accuracy of the survey results, becasue not all owners will count some minor failings as faults. Some (as witnessed on this forum) apparently even look forwards to spending time to correct some issues.

The public have become so used to caravans having faults, it is almost expected, so it does not raise complaints, and this has allowed the manufacturers to become complacent about product reliability.

To put this into some perspective, Most modern cars are expected to run without major failures for about 60K miles or 6 years. If you look at the caravan stock in the UK Id suspect that relatively few go beyond 5K miles before something fails or needs replacing.

There is every reason to keep applying pressure on the manufacturers to improve the reliability of their products.

 

[Hutch]

My Coachman Went back to the the manufactures, when a crack was noticed in the rear panel, they Suggested that it was due to when fitting the awning rail,the Screw hole was not pilot drilled.
The whole caravan was resealed with new fillets of sealant.

Now its out of warranty I am thinking of taping the top Joints of the caravan with tape such as?
http://www.rooflock.com/rooflock-tape/
Anyone have any reasons why not. ?

 

[otherclive]

My Coachman Went back to the the manufactures, when a crack was noticed in the rear panel, they Suggested that it was due to when fitting the awning rail,the Screw hole was not pilot drilled.
The whole caravan was resealed with new fillets of sealant.

Now its out of warranty I am thinking of taping the top Joints of the caravan with tape such as?
http://www.rooflock.com/rooflock-tape/
Anyone have any reasons why not. ?

Rooflock or Eternabond are suitable tapes for sealing seams and both are extremely durable. My rear panel (ABS) has OEM applied tape applied to the transverse seam. That seam is already a watertight seam, but Swift have taken the opportunity to finish it off with the transverse tape which added another barrier and a flexible one to reduce water ingress.

 

[Hutch]

My Coachman Went back to the the manufactures, when a crack was noticed in the rear panel, they Suggested that it was due to when fitting the awning rail,the Screw hole was not pilot drilled.
The whole caravan was resealed with new fillets of sealant.

Now its out of warranty I am thinking of taping the top Joints of the caravan with tape such as?
http://www.rooflock.com/rooflock-tape/
Anyone have any reasons why not. ?

Rooflock or Eternabond are suitable tapes for sealing seams and both are extremely durable. My rear panel (ABS) has OEM applied tape applied to the transverse seam. That seam is already a watertight seam, but Swift have taken the opportunity to finish it off with the transverse tape which added another barrier and a flexible one to reduce water ingress.

Thanks OC, I think on a suitable dry day I will go around the Roof top seams, to help retartd any water ingress.

 

[otherclive]

My Coachman Went back to the the manufactures, when a crack was noticed in the rear panel, they Suggested that it was due to when fitting the awning rail,the Screw hole was not pilot drilled.
The whole caravan was resealed with new fillets of sealant.

Now its out of warranty I am thinking of taping the top Joints of the caravan with tape such as?
http://www.rooflock.com/rooflock-tape/
Anyone have any reasons why not. ?

Rooflock or Eternabond are suitable tapes for sealing seams and both are extremely durable. My rear panel (ABS) has OEM applied tape applied to the transverse seam. That seam is already a watertight seam, but Swift have taken the opportunity to finish it off with the transverse tape which added another barrier and a flexible one to reduce water ingress.

Thanks OC, I think on a suitable dry day I will go around the Roof top seams, to help retartd any water ingress.

Hutch
There are quite a lot of videos online showing Eternabond projects. Mainly US but leaks are leaks !!!

 

[Hutch]

Thank, just thinking as I have a dry van and not thinking o changing it, I would be best to double seal any top joints that could be a problem. For the sake of maybe £50 why not when we have a van that we really like. And able to do it myself. Why not.

 

[JezzerB]

There's always room for improvement of course but for me UK caravans are better designed and equipped than any models commonly on sale in Europe.
(puts tin hat on and hides behind sofa :lol: )

To put this into some perspective, Most modern cars are expected to run without major failures for about 60K miles or 6 years. If you look at the caravan stock in the UK Id suspect that relatively few go beyond 5K miles before something fails or needs replacing.

There is every reason to keep applying pressure on the manufacturers to improve the reliability of their products.

I am pretty sure that uk consumer rights say this ie the 6 year rule about any high value item-so caravans will be the same-not actually a rule but a right for recompense if you can prove the item isn't fit for purpose; applies to any high value item ie tvs etc too.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5945666
And cars have their problems-the very best ie Prius has a 3% fault rate-still sig better than caravans but i stand by my complexity/ lightness comments on that one!

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/driver-power/64280/most-reliable-cars-to-buy-in-2019

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am pretty sure that uk consumer rights say this ie the 6 year rule about any high value item-

The CRA applies to any retail purchase regardless of cost. The value has no significance as all goods including second hand items must be described correctly and provide adequate service for their life as judged by reasonable persons.

 

[Raywood]

There is no six year rule as to problems being found. Your right to recover is if a purchase is deemed faulty and that depends on many factors in addition to age including the amount of use and the way it is looked after.
Six years is the period you have to commence proceedings from the date of when you could reasonably have discovered the fault except for Scotland where you only have five years to commence and serve proceedings. That may seem a long time, but you would be surprised how often it is overlooked.