That's a rather misleading statement.Philspadders said:
Traction control works using the ABS system, but ABS came long before traction control technology. ABS helps maintain traction under braking but it's not TC as in specified Traction Control
Traction control works using the ABS system, but ABS came long before traction control technology. ABS helps maintain traction under braking but it's not TC as in specified Traction Control
Traction control, generally, can use either the brakes [rarely today] throttle [fly wire] cut the spark to a cylinder or two, cut the turbo /down/out if It has one. and of coarse ABS is indeed a traction control system, as it cuts in to help keep traction, ie locked wheels skid which is loss of traction and control
Traction Control as opposed to ABS works using the wheel speed monitor from the ABS system. I'll be very surprised if many TC systems just rely on cutting engine power on road cars. ABS aids traction under braking, but it is not traction control as in car equipped with ABS and "Traction Control".
ABS will cut in when the driver applies the brakes and a wheel slips, drive around all day without touching the brakes and ABS will not cut in, Drive around using a heavy right clog and "Traction Control" cut in is automatic. ABS and TC both use sensors and electronics but TC is triggered by the cars systems, ABS triggering relates to driver action when applying the brakes.
A car equipped with ABS is just not the same as a car equiped with ABS and "Traction Control"
"A traction control system (TCS), also known as Anti-Slip Regulation (ASR), is typically (but not necessarily) a secondary function of the anti-lock braking system on production vehicles, and is designed to prevent loss of traction of the driven road wheels, and therefore maintain the control of the vehicle when excessive throttle is applied by the driver and the condition of the road surface (due to varying factors) is unable to cope with the torque applied.
The intervention can consist of one or more of the following:
****** or suppress the spark to one or more cylinders
Reduce fuel supply to one or more cylinders
Brake one or more wheels
Close the throttle, if the vehicle is fitted with drive by wire throttle
In turbo-charged vehicles, the boost control solenoid can be actuated to reduce boost and therefore engine power.
Typically, the traction control system shares the electro-hydraulic brake actuator (but does not use the conventional master cylinder and servo), and the wheel speed sensors with the anti-lock braking system."
ps. It is "Fly by Wire". ie. system that is linked by electonic signalling rather than mechanically attached to activate the system
ABS will cut in when the driver applies the brakes and a wheel slips, drive around all day without touching the brakes and ABS will not cut in, Drive around using a heavy right clog and "Traction Control" cut in is automatic. ABS and TC both use sensors and electronics but TC is triggered by the cars systems, ABS triggering relates to driver action when applying the brakes.
A car equipped with ABS is just not the same as a car equiped with ABS and "Traction Control"
"A traction control system (TCS), also known as Anti-Slip Regulation (ASR), is typically (but not necessarily) a secondary function of the anti-lock braking system on production vehicles, and is designed to prevent loss of traction of the driven road wheels, and therefore maintain the control of the vehicle when excessive throttle is applied by the driver and the condition of the road surface (due to varying factors) is unable to cope with the torque applied.
The intervention can consist of one or more of the following:
****** or suppress the spark to one or more cylinders
Reduce fuel supply to one or more cylinders
Brake one or more wheels
Close the throttle, if the vehicle is fitted with drive by wire throttle
In turbo-charged vehicles, the boost control solenoid can be actuated to reduce boost and therefore engine power.
Typically, the traction control system shares the electro-hydraulic brake actuator (but does not use the conventional master cylinder and servo), and the wheel speed sensors with the anti-lock braking system."
ps. It is "Fly by Wire". ie. system that is linked by electonic signalling rather than mechanically attached to activate the system
Well explained Chris.
I find the ABS too sesative on my Rover 75 Diesel, but by applying traction control together with a very light throttle and brake application I get better grip on down hill stretches of snow. It's just a technique I find works.
Today with all the gizmo's drivers rely on them to drive the car. I would like to turn my ABS off at times due to it's sensativity. But there is no option for that. I even got my Bro-in-law to test the car on a rolling road to see if the ABS was operating correctly and it was.
Being old school. I had to drive cars until now without gadgets. My first car was a Moggy Minor van. I had to wind it up snow covered hills using my trusty starting handle. I suppose that was a caveman form of traction control
I find the ABS too sesative on my Rover 75 Diesel, but by applying traction control together with a very light throttle and brake application I get better grip on down hill stretches of snow. It's just a technique I find works.
Today with all the gizmo's drivers rely on them to drive the car. I would like to turn my ABS off at times due to it's sensativity. But there is no option for that. I even got my Bro-in-law to test the car on a rolling road to see if the ABS was operating correctly and it was.
Being old school. I had to drive cars until now without gadgets. My first car was a Moggy Minor van. I had to wind it up snow covered hills using my trusty starting handle. I suppose that was a caveman form of traction control
OmOnWeelz,very good description on ABS/ASR,all that i would add is,concerning ASR when it comes to braking a certain wheel it is always the one on the "live"axle and always mainly the wheel that has lost traction thus forcing the oposite wheel to drive.A sort of diff lock but no where near as good.Concerning the operation of ASR its normally always found within the ABS ECU,as with older vehicles, some RSL,s were also located in the same ECU(Bosch CI12,Gamma 2M).This then makes it easy to comunicate with other Control units due to the multiplexing(data links,can)
Taken from this months Caravan Club Mag. page 66
New rules have come into force in Germany regarding the use of winter tyres.
In icy or snowy conditions it is now a legal requirement for your vehicle to have winter tyres, which must be marked with M+S and have a tread depth of at least 4 mm. Snow chains are no longer regarded as an alternative.
Anyone caught driving in snow or ice without winter tyres could be fined E40, increasing to E80 if the vehicle is involved in an accident or blocks the traffic.
Some one stated earlier that M+S have a short life. The Khumo M+S tyres fitted to my 4x4 have done 30,000 so far and still have 5 mm tread depth left.
New rules have come into force in Germany regarding the use of winter tyres.
In icy or snowy conditions it is now a legal requirement for your vehicle to have winter tyres, which must be marked with M+S and have a tread depth of at least 4 mm. Snow chains are no longer regarded as an alternative.
Anyone caught driving in snow or ice without winter tyres could be fined E40, increasing to E80 if the vehicle is involved in an accident or blocks the traffic.
Some one stated earlier that M+S have a short life. The Khumo M+S tyres fitted to my 4x4 have done 30,000 so far and still have 5 mm tread depth left.
Well my xtrail has standard MS tyres, so i'm ok.
As for tyre life at 12.5 K miles i have 4mm left, so i should be good for 25k.
Which i think is ok.
I find it hard to believe that you will get 60k out of any tyre?
As for tyre life at 12.5 K miles i have 4mm left, so i should be good for 25k.
Which i think is ok.
I find it hard to believe that you will get 60k out of any tyre?
........not strictly relevant, but I have had 400,000 kilometers out of Michelin Truck tyres fitted on the steering axle of an Artic unit!
The Continental 4x4 Contact on my XC70 are M&S rated but are only for light snow, whatever that is.They don't carry the snowflake symbol of European or North American winter snow tyres. In NA Continental make an All Season tyre that performs very well in snow (see Tireack video) it is the Extreme DWS tyre but as with all tyres for snow as soon as the 'S' in DWS wears down and only DW can be seen on the tread it no longer gives such good performance in snow, so you are left with Dry and Wet performance. It would be good in Uk but I envisage that if you fitted them as normal you could find youself with winter approaching and the 'S' bit worne down.
I will stick with the Continental 4x4 Contacts which are V rated and give good wear, but at £170 each are twice those used on my Sorento (H rated). I also carry a Snow Sock but all this does is get me to the back of the queue of stuck vehicles!!!
I will stick with the Continental 4x4 Contacts which are V rated and give good wear, but at £170 each are twice those used on my Sorento (H rated). I also carry a Snow Sock but all this does is get me to the back of the queue of stuck vehicles!!!
Not quite correct.Willi-Wonti said:
The tyres must be marked as winter tyres. Most M+S tyres fulfill this requirement, but it is also possible to have winter tyres that are not M+S. The two markings do not necessarily coincide.
Snow chains were never regarded as an alternative because they may only be used in snow and ice, but obviously not in wintry conditions on dry roads. Besides, there is a 50km/h speed limit with snow chains.
Lutz,
you say that winter tyres should be marked but may not have M&S on them. What mark should there be on them?
you say that winter tyres should be marked but may not have M&S on them. What mark should there be on them?
Winter tyres are marked with a symbol depicting a snowflake within a stylised 'alpine' icon. (As in this example)
Gaferbill, 400,000 kilometers, wow, that equates to 248,548 miles almost a quarter of a million miles, that is if my maths are right, never a strong point of mine, but that certainly seems exceptional, puts the 10,000 miles i get out of the front tyres of my Volvo V70 to shame!
Allan.
Allan.
<a href="http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/total_tyre_guide/259435/winter_tyre_test.html"; title="Winter Tyre Test" >Winter Tyre Test</a>
click on the above link , to watch video of the difference winter tyres make
click on the above link , to watch video of the difference winter tyres make
A local independant tyre depot down Rotherwas in Hereford is offering 15" snow tyres for £34 each.
Also our local Asda has a range of snow socks for car tyres. These are from an Austrian designer and at close to the cost of 1 snow tyre, they could be a credable alternative. They fit over conventional tyres and are designed to fit like a modern day steering wheel cover (without ties or chains). They are fitted with the car on the ground and can be done in a couple of mins. The inside surface mates with the tyre rubber and the outside is a woven carbon fibre type fabric which gives a good grip in snow. They are however limited to 40Mph, but can be driven on tarmac aswell as snow, thus avoiding the multiple changing often needed with snow chains, which are also limited to 20Mph and only effective in deep snow.
These might be a good alternative as they can be kept in the car boot because here in blighty we usually only have less than a week of disruption due to snow.
I have in the past used the pound shop 6mm rope and fed it across the tyre and through the spokes of the alloy wheels on the car to make a makeshift snow chain affair. One does have to be very carefull doing this, to avoid the cord catching on any brake components, wires, or hoses etc. It also should only be done with the relevant wheel raised so that you can rotate it to check for clearence. Also be very aware that this is only a last measure to get your car unstuck and you should drive at no more than 20Mph. Also at the earliest opportunity you should remove the rope as not only could it be illegal, but you could find your insurance company frowning upon it. So as I say "on your own head be it" and just treat it as a method to get you up the hill or short stretch of road you're stuck on.
Another tip is to keep a set of rubber car mats in the boot. They car also be a sorce of grip if you put the first pair of mats behind the drive wheel, reverse onto that, stop, then put the second pair infront of the 1st mats. Then pull off gently and the length of the mats should give you the momentum to proceed. Once clear you can then walk back and recover your mats.
A good winter kit of mats, shovel, snow socks, tow rope, hi viz construction workers jacket, thermal hat and gloves, torch (wind up is best), work boots. and a blanket will be very handy and apart from the shovel, it will easily pack into a 50 litre storage box. I leave mine packed in a box ready all year round, and keep it in the car from now until march.
Currently we are set to have the 2nd or 3rd warmest autum on record. But December could be a cold one. With such changeable weather, to me, it doesn't make sense to go to winter tyres this year.
You watch though, having said that we're now guarantee'd tons of the white stuff.
Also our local Asda has a range of snow socks for car tyres. These are from an Austrian designer and at close to the cost of 1 snow tyre, they could be a credable alternative. They fit over conventional tyres and are designed to fit like a modern day steering wheel cover (without ties or chains). They are fitted with the car on the ground and can be done in a couple of mins. The inside surface mates with the tyre rubber and the outside is a woven carbon fibre type fabric which gives a good grip in snow. They are however limited to 40Mph, but can be driven on tarmac aswell as snow, thus avoiding the multiple changing often needed with snow chains, which are also limited to 20Mph and only effective in deep snow.
These might be a good alternative as they can be kept in the car boot because here in blighty we usually only have less than a week of disruption due to snow.
I have in the past used the pound shop 6mm rope and fed it across the tyre and through the spokes of the alloy wheels on the car to make a makeshift snow chain affair. One does have to be very carefull doing this, to avoid the cord catching on any brake components, wires, or hoses etc. It also should only be done with the relevant wheel raised so that you can rotate it to check for clearence. Also be very aware that this is only a last measure to get your car unstuck and you should drive at no more than 20Mph. Also at the earliest opportunity you should remove the rope as not only could it be illegal, but you could find your insurance company frowning upon it. So as I say "on your own head be it" and just treat it as a method to get you up the hill or short stretch of road you're stuck on.
Another tip is to keep a set of rubber car mats in the boot. They car also be a sorce of grip if you put the first pair of mats behind the drive wheel, reverse onto that, stop, then put the second pair infront of the 1st mats. Then pull off gently and the length of the mats should give you the momentum to proceed. Once clear you can then walk back and recover your mats.
A good winter kit of mats, shovel, snow socks, tow rope, hi viz construction workers jacket, thermal hat and gloves, torch (wind up is best), work boots. and a blanket will be very handy and apart from the shovel, it will easily pack into a 50 litre storage box. I leave mine packed in a box ready all year round, and keep it in the car from now until march.
Currently we are set to have the 2nd or 3rd warmest autum on record. But December could be a cold one. With such changeable weather, to me, it doesn't make sense to go to winter tyres this year.
You watch though, having said that we're now guarantee'd tons of the white stuff.
All the above measures are no alternative to winter tyres. They may give the car the necessary extra traction to move off, but they do nothing to compensate the extra braking distance that normal summer tyres suffer from at low temperatures.
Winter tyres are not meant only for ice and snow, but for all conditions as soon as the temperature drops close to freezing.
Besides, snow chains, snow socks or anything similar restrict the maximum allowable speed, usually to 30mph, so you need to remove them again as soon as the going improves. Except for some high performance vehicles for which there are no winter tyres with a speed rating to match their top speed, winter tyres don't restrict your maximum speed in any way and they are certainly adequate to match the 70mph limit in the UK.
Winter tyres are not meant only for ice and snow, but for all conditions as soon as the temperature drops close to freezing.
Besides, snow chains, snow socks or anything similar restrict the maximum allowable speed, usually to 30mph, so you need to remove them again as soon as the going improves. Except for some high performance vehicles for which there are no winter tyres with a speed rating to match their top speed, winter tyres don't restrict your maximum speed in any way and they are certainly adequate to match the 70mph limit in the UK.
I've just ordered some Snowsocks for emergency use only if stuck !
I had letter from Ford offering the socks but when I went to the main agent my Kuga 18in weren't listed
I got some from a tyre dealer at the same price and watched the U tube video first
There are some other options on this link as well as the socks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x8iHyLWWKw&feature=related
I had letter from Ford offering the socks but when I went to the main agent my Kuga 18in weren't listed
I got some from a tyre dealer at the same price and watched the U tube video first
There are some other options on this link as well as the socks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x8iHyLWWKw&feature=related
I don't suppose you saw the following Youtube video, though?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=9hatpiEjQIo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=9hatpiEjQIo
I did see it after I had ordered them
I also read some of the replies which called into question the veracity or mental state of the poster and the way he had used them
Time will tell and I will report any failure
I also saw all the ones from satisfied users
OK socks (and gloves!) arrived
Easily fitted and drove car up and down drive
They centred as predicted and no slipping on dry tarmac
Now lets hope that's enough insurance to ensure a snow free winter and they can stay in the bag
I also read some of the replies which called into question the veracity or mental state of the poster and the way he had used them
Time will tell and I will report any failure
I also saw all the ones from satisfied users
OK socks (and gloves!) arrived
Easily fitted and drove car up and down drive
They centred as predicted and no slipping on dry tarmac
Now lets hope that's enough insurance to ensure a snow free winter and they can stay in the bag
At just over 50k miles we have just had our 3rd set of tyres fitted to our XC90. The ones it came with were Continentals and were useless in mud, and they only lasted 18500 miles, less than 2 years
The second set were Vredesteins, rated as winter tyres. A bit of an experiment to see how they performed in summer, and how well they lasted. We have been very pleased with them, and they lasted 32000 miles, about 2 years 9 months. 2 were well worn, but the other 2 still have decent tread. They kept us going through all the snow last year.
They have now gone very expensive here, so we have just had a set of Nokians fitted, again rated as winter tyres. Bought on internet and fitted locally, £160 each plus £30 for delivery and fitting. I hope they last as well as the last set!
The second set were Vredesteins, rated as winter tyres. A bit of an experiment to see how they performed in summer, and how well they lasted. We have been very pleased with them, and they lasted 32000 miles, about 2 years 9 months. 2 were well worn, but the other 2 still have decent tread. They kept us going through all the snow last year.
They have now gone very expensive here, so we have just had a set of Nokians fitted, again rated as winter tyres. Bought on internet and fitted locally, £160 each plus £30 for delivery and fitting. I hope they last as well as the last set!
Most Brits can't get their head round the fact that "normal" tyres are actually classified as Summer tyres and that +7 degrees C is the divider between Summer and Winter tyres. On average, it's below +7 degrees C from November to March, ie 5 months - bit more further north or a bit less further south.Lutz said:
All year round, I run All-Season tyres which additionally have the snowflake symbol (not all do) and are so much better than summer tyres, particularly in the cool wet conditions we get so much of.
Lutz, if one is driving in snow the last thing they need to touch are the brakes!
Decelerating using the gearbox (even in an automatic using gear selection) is the safest way to stop. In the modern car, ABS braking kicks in and while it's good for the inexperienced driver, learning to drive a car using gerbox deceleration is a good lesson to learn.
There is a brillient Land Rover experience center at ledbury that offers training coarses for 4X4 off roading and it includes going up and down a 45 degree slope. You are told to never touch the brakes and to use the gears and the engine torque to go up and down. If you do have to stop only apply the foot brake (hand brakes usually only grip 2 wheels) at the point where the vehicle stops still. Then you select the lowest gear and start the engine while feathering the brake to allow progress. It is a work of art to do that and keep your nerve and I wouldn't suggest the un-trained try it.
The snow socks I saw are rated at 40 mph where as, snow chains are rated at 20 mph in the UK. To be honest 40 is positively racey over here as most folks panic and crawl everywhere even in a light dusting of snow, as the last significant snow the midlands had before the last 2 years was around 1983.
The normal tyres that folks refer to are what are commercially available road tyres designed to work on tarmac in wet and dry conditions. That generally is quite sufficient for our climate, as the UK has no legislation requiring drivers to fit winter tyres during certain months like they do in Germany, Austria etc. In the UK drivers are basically left to fend for themselves and it is probably only about 1% who actually have driven in serious snow and only half of them have any form of snow kit or practice in using it.
( ducking down to avoid the shrapnell now ).
Back in 2004 we toured Scotland and everyone in our troop of 4 caravans (family relatives) asked me what were those 8ft poles doing on the roadside as we drove from Fort William to Ullapool to stop at Ardmir Point. I explained that they were markers for the snow blowers and JCB's to follow to ensure they didn't veer off the road and into a ditch when the snow is 6 ft deep in winter.
I might not have the perfect solution to people's predicaments, but I try to encourage folks to "think outside the box", rather than spend a fortune on gear they might never use to it's full potential, and also try to do a bit of self rescue before calling the AA, RAC or Green Flag. Every year the breakdown services get called to flat tyres and battery's at home and people running out of fuel because they haven't thought about a few basic "what if" situations before dialing for rescue. Going back to the late 70's I had the job of having to take 4 jerry cans of fuel in a D class RNLI inflatable out to a motor cruiser just 2 miles out of New Quay Dyfed, simply because the owner and captain of the Gin Palace didn't know how to fuel his boat when there was no fuel pump beside the harbor to fill the tanks like you do a car. What a waste of time to the RNLI to do that. I took his fuel and on the way back got called to the usual shout of kids in plastic dinghies being blown out to sea.
Decelerating using the gearbox (even in an automatic using gear selection) is the safest way to stop. In the modern car, ABS braking kicks in and while it's good for the inexperienced driver, learning to drive a car using gerbox deceleration is a good lesson to learn.
There is a brillient Land Rover experience center at ledbury that offers training coarses for 4X4 off roading and it includes going up and down a 45 degree slope. You are told to never touch the brakes and to use the gears and the engine torque to go up and down. If you do have to stop only apply the foot brake (hand brakes usually only grip 2 wheels) at the point where the vehicle stops still. Then you select the lowest gear and start the engine while feathering the brake to allow progress. It is a work of art to do that and keep your nerve and I wouldn't suggest the un-trained try it.
The snow socks I saw are rated at 40 mph where as, snow chains are rated at 20 mph in the UK. To be honest 40 is positively racey over here as most folks panic and crawl everywhere even in a light dusting of snow, as the last significant snow the midlands had before the last 2 years was around 1983.
The normal tyres that folks refer to are what are commercially available road tyres designed to work on tarmac in wet and dry conditions. That generally is quite sufficient for our climate, as the UK has no legislation requiring drivers to fit winter tyres during certain months like they do in Germany, Austria etc. In the UK drivers are basically left to fend for themselves and it is probably only about 1% who actually have driven in serious snow and only half of them have any form of snow kit or practice in using it.
( ducking down to avoid the shrapnell now ).
Back in 2004 we toured Scotland and everyone in our troop of 4 caravans (family relatives) asked me what were those 8ft poles doing on the roadside as we drove from Fort William to Ullapool to stop at Ardmir Point. I explained that they were markers for the snow blowers and JCB's to follow to ensure they didn't veer off the road and into a ditch when the snow is 6 ft deep in winter.
I might not have the perfect solution to people's predicaments, but I try to encourage folks to "think outside the box", rather than spend a fortune on gear they might never use to it's full potential, and also try to do a bit of self rescue before calling the AA, RAC or Green Flag. Every year the breakdown services get called to flat tyres and battery's at home and people running out of fuel because they haven't thought about a few basic "what if" situations before dialing for rescue. Going back to the late 70's I had the job of having to take 4 jerry cans of fuel in a D class RNLI inflatable out to a motor cruiser just 2 miles out of New Quay Dyfed, simply because the owner and captain of the Gin Palace didn't know how to fuel his boat when there was no fuel pump beside the harbor to fill the tanks like you do a car. What a waste of time to the RNLI to do that. I took his fuel and on the way back got called to the usual shout of kids in plastic dinghies being blown out to sea.
I agree that decellerating using the gearbox is good practice, but I cannot imagine that anyone would not attempt to apply the brakes when faced with a sudden emergency situation, even on snow.
Both RogerL and myself have tried to make it clear that winter tyres perform better on perfectly dry roads, too, when the temperature drops to close to freezing. We don't really have any snow worth mentioning where we live either, and yet I fit winter tyres from about the end of November until Easter.
Both RogerL and myself have tried to make it clear that winter tyres perform better on perfectly dry roads, too, when the temperature drops to close to freezing. We don't really have any snow worth mentioning where we live either, and yet I fit winter tyres from about the end of November until Easter.
No. If anything winter tyres are a bit quieter because the rubber compound is softer and the ones that I have have the same tread pattern as the summer tyres. Outwardly, there's little to distinguish the two.
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