You say

[John_5085747]

I am writing in response to Anthony Taylor.in the Special Awards Issue,about 4x4s.I have been caravaning for over 20yrs,and he says most 4x4 owners dont drive in excess of speed limits,well think again ,every time i go on holiday ,be it down south or up north,i try to stay behind a H.G.V.because they always travel at 60mph,also you conserve fuel as well,but i see every year 4x4s speeding past at 70 and 80 mph with caravans on the back.Does Mr Taylor know that there are more accidents with 4x4s pulling vans than ordinery cars.

You are more likely to die when you are hit by 4x4s.

 

[Lutz]

Because the whole issue of 4x4's was getting out of hand, there was request by the Moderator a little while back to limit topics on the subject to the 'Towcars' section.

However, having said that, the points you raised have been gone over so many times before and the discussion always turned out to be futile that the subject has become rather boring.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I don't own a 4x4 but I totally agree Lutz - yawwwWNNNNNNN pass me my Horlicks please maid.

Best for all to ignore and not to respond to the thread.

 

[354]

Havent had my Horlicks yet, but already feeling tired

 

[alan_5063447]

Please note - HGV's have speed limiters fitted that limit their speed to 56mph, They appear to be doing 60mph because most car speedos give optomistic readings. I've had speedo's up to 10% fast, so a reading of 60 meant I was actually doing 54 - I wondered why the lorries kept passing me! A friend was stopped by the police for doing a steady 23 in a 30 area, his speedo was inaccurate too. So now, when I change my car,I follow a couple of HGV's on the motorway to get an accurate reading of 56 and get some idea of the %age inaccuracy of my speedo. Hope this helps.

 

[Lutz]

Note that trucks between 7.5 and 12 tonnes are limited to 60mph, not 56mph.

 

[Lol1]

In the blue corner we have the Anti brigade, weighing in at a total of two feather pillows and a cuddly toy. In the red corner we have the 4x4 heavy brigade, we don't know what they weigh as the local weigh bridge is out of service! So lets have a clean fight, no low blows and no biting, at the bell come out fighting.

Ding Ding! Round one.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

In the Ncap tests the Nissan X- Trail scored 2* out of 3 in the pedestrian friendly test exactly the same as the Nissan Micra and more than a lot of family cars.

This took no account of the improved view from the X-trail over the Micra which could have avoided an accident in the first place.

 

[Lol1]

The heavies have the Anti's on the ropes straight away, the anti's are looking a little dazed, they didn't expect the unexpected and are starting to pay for it.....

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

If the anti's are a cuddly toy and two pillows they must be having the stuffing knocked out of them.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

If the anti's are a cuddly toy and two pillows they must be having the stuffing knocked out of them.

:O( oops perhaps I spoiled Lol's joke. If so I'll let you off one days toil in the turnip field next week :O)

 

[rayc]

John, I am very interested in road safety and I am always interested in accident statistics. Can you please give me your sourcee of your statement 'there are more accidents involving caravans towed by 4 x 4's than with ordinary cars'?

Many thanks.

 

[354]

The antis are on the canvas and the count begins, 1a 2a -----

 

[VIP2006]

I tow with a Mercedes ML270CDi Auto. and have never felt more comfortable when towing. as for the speed brigade they rate along side the saloon car brigade for who will be first into the graveyard - and god forbid that they are not accompanied by their family and anyone connected with their demise. Pls. moderator put this topic where it belongs. IMHO

 

[354]

3a, 4a

 

[CliveV]

5a 6a

 

[CliveV]

John, I am very interested in road safety and I am always interested in accident statistics. Can you please give me your sourcee of your statement 'there are more accidents involving caravans towed by 4 x 4's than with ordinary cars'?

Many thanks.

Come of it Ray! - you don't think what was posted is based on any actual published source do you? These facts only exist in the minds of the anti's!!

Damn good question tho - I look forward to the answer !!

 

[Lol1]

Is that a towel I see?

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Lord B over the past few weeks I see you appear to be drinking and advertising Horlicks a lot on this forum. Would you be so kind as to tell me who the manufacturer is so that I may buy shares in the company because with this (free?) publicity you are giving it their sales are bound to increase. Are there any other products you can recommend so that I may speculate a few bob on the stock market?

 

[MONKEY1]

If I may answer that one .

For 4x4 owners to invest in : Car shipping lines, Steel producers, personal protection equipment (for the anti 4x4 brigade) Estate agents,

For those opposed to 4x4 you could invest in : Car dealerships who specialise in cars (for those in the 22% and under tax bracket), tyre companies, ferry lines (when they (realise that length is getting irrelevant and the new thing is weight), personal injury lawyers, car transporters, and of course fuel companies.

You'll have to provide an ethics and environmental statement when you report those profits - forget wanting to read and understand accident statistics that will be a far more interesting one!!.

Regard Monkeys Husband

 

[MONKEY1]

Note that trucks between 7.5 and 12 tonnes are limited to 60mph, not 56mph.

I've never operated any trucks in this band but my reading of the law is up to 7.5 tonnes 70 mph beyond that 56 mph.

For Lutz here is a little exert taken from the main Trnsport managers association

Source Journal IRTE (sorry can't bring myself to call it SOE)

EU directive 2002/85/EC will make limiters compulsory on all vehicles > 3.5t gvw, cutting legal maximum to 56mph.

At present the EU limit is 12t gvw but the UK has always gone further demanding limiters on trucks > 7.5t gvw.

Buses and coaches do not escape. Those with more than 8 passenger seats, irrespective of gvw will need a limiter restricting top speed to 100kph (62mph) Limiters at present only req'd in UK on PCV >7.5t gvw.

For both goods & passenger vehicles new EU legislation will apply to new vehicles reg'd on/after Jan 1 2005.

retrofit req'd by Jan 1 2006/2007 if vehicle has euro3 engine and used for international/domestic work appropriately.

Apparently most Euro 3 7.5 tonners are already fitted with limiters but "hardly any are set to the 85km/h necessary to satify the new law's 'cannot exceed 90 km/h' requirement"

Derogation by a max of three years is allowed and UK DfT intends to use the full allowance and introduce the legislation in "the least burdensome way possible." DfT also questioning the need for limiters and that the selection of the speed means that light vehicles will be limited to the same as heavier ones and dangerous bunching will occur.

Regards Monkeys H

 

[MONKEY1]

The antis are on the canvas and the count begins, 1a 2a -----

Del,

Surely if you pick a fight, you do so someone of the same weight and stature hardly a clean fight is it when your opponent is 150% bigger than you?

Monkey's H

 

[ProfJohnL]

Dear John,

I am not entirely ambivalent on the issue of using 4x4's for towing or any other use. I support the right of the individual to drive what vehicle they are legally entitled to drive, but I do believe that the choice should be used to select the most appropriate vehicle for the range of intended purposes. The issue had been roundly debated at length in other postings, so if your posting on the 11th was a tactic to reignite the 4x4 debate, then I feel it was misguided.

If on the other hand it was a genuine statement of your opinion, then you spoilt it by including statements that you present as facts which were not substantiated.

I have not read the article by Tony Taylor, so I do not know if you quote him accurately, So does he actually state that "says most 4x4 owners don't drive in excess of speed limits", or is that your interpretation of the article? If you lifted the quote accurately then clearly that is an unsubstantiated statement.

My take on the issue is that not all 4x4 drivers exceed the speed limits. By logical extension that means I believe some do exceed the speed limit, but hey the same applies to drivers of all types of vehicles, so it is disingenuous to single out one group (i.e. 4x4 drivers) over others.

You then go on to say that whilst towing at 60mph behind lorries you are passed by 4x4's towing at speeds of 70 to 80 mph. Let's examine the elements of your stated position.

Firstly, it has been established the HGV's are limited to 56 not 60 mph. So if you are in a queue of HGV's then you are likely to be travelling at 56 or slightly less. You can quite legally be passed by caravanners who can tow up to 60mph, albeit with a speed differential of about 4 mph.

How can you accurately determine the speed of a passing vehicle such that you can state with authority they are travelling at 70 or 80 mph? I agree that is possible to make a guess, but such definitive statement is open to challenge.

I ask you to examine your memory, Are you saying you have never been overtaken by an outfit towed by a non 4x4? Or are you using selective memory to try and push your point?

I do not know if Anthony Taylor knows there are more towing accidents involving 4x4's than other tow vehicles, but DO YOU know this to be fact. Perhaps Mr Taylor knows the converse to be true. As others have asked, where is the source for your information. I have not seen any definitive figures, and I am not sure if a distinction is made or recorded by officials?

Death by 4x4! The NCAP tests use a low speed (25mph) collision for their assessments, and the difference in injury/death diminishes very rapidly as the collision speed approaches normal traffic speeds Why single out 4x4's? For exactly the same reasons a pedestrian hit by a bus or lorry is likely to sustain more sever injuries than from a car at the same speed.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, and you may not like 4x4s so be it, but if you wish to try and sway the opinion of others or seek sympathy towards your views please use reasoned arguments and only quote facts you can substantiate.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Dear John,

I am not entirely ambivalent on the issue of using 4x4's for towing or any other use. I support the right of the individual to drive what vehicle they are legally entitled to drive, but I do believe that the choice should be used to select the most appropriate vehicle for the range of intended purposes. The issue had been roundly debated at length in other postings, so if your posting on the 11th was a tactic to reignite the 4x4 debate, then I feel it was misguided.

If on the other hand it was a genuine statement of your opinion, then you spoilt it by including statements that you present as facts which were not substantiated.

I have not read the article by Tony Taylor, so I do not know if you quote him accurately, So does he actually state that "says most 4x4 owners don't drive in excess of speed limits", or is that your interpretation of the article? If you lifted the quote accurately then clearly that is an unsubstantiated statement.

My take on the issue is that not all 4x4 drivers exceed the speed limits. By logical extension that means I believe some do exceed the speed limit, but hey the same applies to drivers of all types of vehicles, so it is disingenuous to single out one group (i.e. 4x4 drivers) over others.

You then go on to say that whilst towing at 60mph behind lorries you are passed by 4x4's towing at speeds of 70 to 80 mph. Let's examine the elements of your stated position.

Firstly, it has been established the HGV's are limited to 56 not 60 mph. So if you are in a queue of HGV's then you are likely to be travelling at 56 or slightly less. You can quite legally be passed by caravanners who can tow up to 60mph, albeit with a speed differential of about 4 mph.

How can you accurately determine the speed of a passing vehicle such that you can state with authority they are travelling at 70 or 80 mph? I agree that is possible to make a guess, but such definitive statement is open to challenge.

I ask you to examine your memory, Are you saying you have never been overtaken by an outfit towed by a non 4x4? Or are you using selective memory to try and push your point?

I do not know if Anthony Taylor knows there are more towing accidents involving 4x4's than other tow vehicles, but DO YOU know this to be fact. Perhaps Mr Taylor knows the converse to be true. As others have asked, where is the source for your information. I have not seen any definitive figures, and I am not sure if a distinction is made or recorded by officials?

Death by 4x4! The NCAP tests use a low speed (25mph) collision for their assessments, and the difference in injury/death diminishes very rapidly as the collision speed approaches normal traffic speeds Why single out 4x4's? For exactly the same reasons a pedestrian hit by a bus or lorry is likely to sustain more sever injuries than from a car at the same speed.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, and you may not like 4x4s so be it, but if you wish to try and sway the opinion of others or seek sympathy towards your views please use reasoned arguments and only quote facts you can substantiate.

As John L pointed out in his posting to be hit by a bus, lorry etc. could cause serious injury or fatality as was the case in Cardiff late Friday evening. A bus was turning into the bus station at slow speed and struck a pedestrian. It took the emergency crew approx. twenty minutes to free him and he was pronounced dead at the scene.

It is not the vehicle which causes the problem it is human error whether it be a Mini or a 44 tonnes articulated lorry that is involved in the accident. The vehicle is an inate object which can only act in the manner as directed by the human controlling it.

 

[rayc]

As John L pointed out in his posting to be hit by a bus, lorry etc. could cause serious injury or fatality as was the case in Cardiff late Friday evening. A bus was turning into the bus station at slow speed and struck a pedestrian. It took the emergency crew approx. twenty minutes to free him and he was pronounced dead at the scene.

It is not the vehicle which causes the problem it is human error whether it be a Mini or a 44 tonnes articulated lorry that is involved in the accident. The vehicle is an inate object which can only act in the manner as directed by the human controlling it.

Colin, I agree with what you say but wonder if being an inate object applies to caravans which have snaked for indeterminate reasons when being towed in a normal careful manner. I realise there must have been something that happened that caused it to go unstable but postings in the forum from those involved, never seem to come to a firm conclusion of why they snaked or what they could have done in advance that would have prevented it happening.