You say

[DEANO3528]

Try as I might, I can't find anything on the forum with regard to A Taylor or his Special Awards!

Thus I am somewhat confused as to what this entire topic is based upon.

If it was based upon some magazine article then that would be the obvious place to address it rather than on here.

However if it was intended to further inflame the 4x4 debate then you would appear to have widdled on your own matches.

 

[baxtjhn@aol.com]

Having read all the posts on this subject and having driven most of the vehicles mentioned.In my own humble opinion it is not the vehicle at fault but the driver,we have all seen crazy motorcyclists all the way up to juggernauts.

If a vehicle is being driven by someone with the experience and common sense required and they don't exceed speed limits,then there should be less chance of an accident,unless its with someone without experience and common sense..

I agree the larger the vehicle the more damage to people and property,so whats the answer,ban anything bigger than a hatchback.

I go back to my point about experience and common sense,therein lies the problem,every driver tends to think they are the best and everyone else is the bad driver.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

In reply to Ray C. asnake only comes as result of the human - the human could be the person who has incorrectly loaded the van, incorrect tyre pressures, speeding, speeding in adverse weather conditionas, etc. A caravan will not snake on its own, there must be an outside influence to cause the snaking which is human induced.

 

[VIP2006]

Colin - although I agree with your comments that humans cause accidents for one reason or another, but I do beleive that a snake can be caused by situations out of the control of the driver. for instance a juggernaught or two passing you at great speed causing turbulence which cannot be blamed on the driver of the outfit.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Colin - although I agree with your comments that humans cause accidents for one reason or another, but I do beleive that a snake can be caused by situations out of the control of the driver. for instance a juggernaught or two passing you at great speed causing turbulence which cannot be blamed on the driver of the outfit.

Fair enough it will not be the driver of the caravan outfit at fault but it is still human error where the driver of the juggernaught is at fault for speeding especially as they are supposed to be governed. I have been informed that it is possible to deactivate the governer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray C & Shiraz

RayC you are at risk of diverting the course of this topic, but on the subject of snaking; It is my understanding that every combination of outfit becomes more unstable as speed increases. The critical point comes when the driver is unable to control the outfit resulting in uncontrolled stability.

Given the same conditions, an outfit that was unstable at one speed should be able to renegotiate the conditions at a lower speed and remain controlled.

So speed is the drivers main controlable but variable influence, and thus by inference instability occurs if the outfit is being driven too fast for the prevailing conditions and characteristics.

To prevent instability SLOW DOWN.

 

[mcghee]

yes this topic does seem to have wandered a bit.i do agree with you john l,about speed relating to conditions.i made this point a couple of weeks back and met some disagreement.to comment on shirazs point,if youre travelling fast enough for a snake to be a real threat youve little chance of being overtaken by a juggernaught.and if your outfits prone to snaking at 50mph or less youve got a real problem.to get back to johns original point though,you say you travel behind hgvs to save fuel?if youre close enough for this to work id say youre too close,which i think is a tad more dangerous than the 4x4s which are overtaking you.i dont really want to start a 4x4 battle,but in an unexpected situation i believe a 2.5ton car will hold a van down rather better than a 1.5ton car,and its slowly getting to the point where the average family van is too heavy for the average family car.

 

[Lol1]

TKO?

 

[VIP2006]

Fair enough it will not be the driver of the caravan outfit at fault but it is still human error where the driver of the juggernaught is at fault for speeding especially as they are supposed to be governed. I have been informed that it is possible to deactivate the governer.

using the analogy of the 2 juggarnaughts I happened to have an incident which resulted in my van becoming completely uncontrollable and resulted in the van being written off.

that incident took place in 1990 and the van was being towed by a Audi 100 and my can was well below the 85% recommendation.

the incident was over in seconds and we were left with the van on its head and the car facing the oncoming traffic.

the van was only six months old, well maintained and loaded to meet a 75Kgs noseweight.

in those days HGV's were not governed and these 2 M&S lorries passed me going downhill and being close together caused the snake to start with the above results.

I agree that man in all events cause most if not all travel incidents, but I beleive that a lot of progress has been made since those days in as much that a heck of a lot knowledge, recommendations and legislation are in place for all to take in.

my advices to people are:

make sure that you tow with the heaviest towcar you can buy.

make sure that you load it correctly and meet the noseweight for the van and the vehicle.

make sure that the van and car are well maintained and that the brakes and tyres are in good condition.

when travelling keep to the speed regulations and when going down an incline get the speed well below the 50mph mark.

I am sure that everyone who tows can add to the list above!!!

I CANNOT EMPHASISE ENOUGH THAT SPEED KILLS. AND I HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR DRIVERS WHO FLOUT ALL THE RULES JUST TO GET TO THEIR DESTINATION A FEW MINUTE EARLIER THAN IF THEY HAD KEPT WITHIN THE SPEED LIMITS.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Sorry Colin old boy having not responded to your comment above about Horlicks but once I saw that the thread is someone starting to cause trouble regarding 4x4s (although I dont drive one myself) I didnt bother to revisit the thread. As you will see someone called John started the crap and is now probably sat back watching and laughing at the people biting. He hasn't commented since. Read John aka hider. Now back to the Horlicks Colin. I supply their factory with malt so yes I have a vested interest and also the silky smooth consistency of the drink helps me swallow my Viagra which also pleases Titillating Tina.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks for your comment Craig,

You seem to suggest that snaking will only occur at speeds above that of HGV's, well for a poorly matched or loaded outfit it could occur at much lower speeds.

With respect of John's original posting and following HGV's to conserve fuel, I don't believe John meant he was tailgating to take advantage of the slipstream, I think he simply meant travelling at the same speed as HGV,s he would use less fuel than punching past them.

I agree that modern caravans are being made heavier, and that can take them beyond a good match for many family saloons.

 

[mcghee]

your views on snaking are exactly the point i was trying to make john.i believe there are some caravanners who travel at lower speeds because their cars arent truly capable of what theyre being asked to perform due to weight,noseweight,or just bad loading as you say.i think its a bit unfair to accuse caravanners whose outfits are well matched and loaded of driving inconsiderately or dangerously.i wonder how many caravan accidents are attributable to poor outfit matching or loading,rather than speed?

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Sorry Colin old boy having not responded to your comment above about Horlicks but once I saw that the thread is someone starting to cause trouble regarding 4x4s (although I dont drive one myself) I didnt bother to revisit the thread. As you will see someone called John started the crap and is now probably sat back watching and laughing at the people biting. He hasn't commented since. Read John aka hider. Now back to the Horlicks Colin. I supply their factory with malt so yes I have a vested interest and also the silky smooth consistency of the drink helps me swallow my Viagra which also pleases Titillating Tina.

Lord B - my thoughts on Tina have gone down considerably as if she has to be, in my opinion, desperate to have any form of relationship with a person who needs to take the enhancing drug Viagra. She could travel a few miles south west and have all her pleasures satisfied by a human who does not require this drug aid. Give the girl a chance to experience the true pleasures of life. Regarding your comments about Horlicks though I must agree with you as I also find it a delicious drink.

 

[sparkes]

Well, I have considered this with great care and have the following to say.

(this area left blank intentionally)

There, I hope you don't find my comment insulting. But as Lutz said, its in the wrong place for a 4x4 debate and I agreed to follow the mod's guidelines on this.

However, If you want to post this in Tow cars, I will be happy to point out that you are either:

A, Tree hugger out for anything you do not agree with

B, A Troll

C, A kangarite

D, Misinformed

E, Jealous

Please delete as appropriate!

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Well I'm not B to E but if A is someone who cares about the environment I am one of those Steve although I'm not the latter part of A. For example I believe people have the right to choose a 4x4 to tow with if they feel happier that way. A 4x4 serves a purpose. In my heart of hearts though I can't find it in myself to agree to them being big boys toys. In that I mean ripping the countryside up for no purpose whatsoever. I honestly didn't know what Greenlaning was so I did ask but guessed by the silence/non informative replies it was a taboo subject ;O) I have just looked at some greenlaning sites to inform myself and they do themselves no favours by posting pics on there showing the damage they cause. A lot of those upland sites are peat which will not repair themselves. The ruts and deep holes left behind damage the peat which will not recover for 1000s of years. Oh well, who cares, we are only on this planet for a short time, enjoy yourself today, b*gger tomorrow. :O( Jeeeezzzz now you started me off on my soapbox.

 

[CliveV]

Sorry Lord - must have missed your question re greenlaning - but first can I correct something in your previous post which causes a lot of the antipathy towards Greenlaning.

Greenlaning IS NOT "Off Roading"

This is important! If you went to an Off-Roading website you will see pictures of extreme Off-Roading on a private site where permission has been granted and all the normal Health & Safety rules apply. these sites are often old quarries etc and can be an important part of the local economy.

Green Laning is where vehicles use the 5% (Yes only 5%) of all non-tamacked lanes that are designated as Byways Open to All Traffic (BOAT's) i.e. vehicles, horses and walkers. The other 95% of such lanes are Bridleways (Horse Riders and Walkers) and Footpaths (walkers only)

As far as I am aware MTB riders have no rules applied to them and they can, and do, go where they like.

My particular beef given that vehicular use of BOATS is known to be and has been verified as being very low, why is it that The Ramblers Association in particular having been given the "Right to Roam" over the entire countryside, that they want the tiny 5% of BOATS blocked for those of us who enjoy a quite drive in the country? Isn't 95% enough for you guys?

Greenlaning IS NOT about roaring about and tearing up the countryside - it is about following the "tread lightly code" - doing no damage but also keeping these old roads "Open to All Traffic" !

If you saw pictures of Peat Bogs being driven over - I am reasonably certain that that was not on a green lane - that was on a legitimate Off-roading site as traversing a peat bog is not something our forefathers would have felt particularly sensible if laying down a "road" to get from A to B. And after all these old roads were just that - Byways Open to All Traffic. Perhaps you could confirm where you saw these pic's?

I hope I am not coming across as pedantic but those of us who work with the local councils Hiways and Byways Officers to keep these lanes open have an awful problem with the "anti's" taking such extreme off-roading pictures and telling people that this is Greenlining!!

You can imagine how most uninformed people would react if presented with such a picture and told "This is coming to a footpath near you!"

And sorry to pick you up Lord - but it would seem that you have done EXACTLY that!

In fact nothing could be further from the truth and FoDRoW is a shining example of how Greelaners, the Local Council and residents can work together to improve and maintain the countryside. Fodrow provides expertise and manpower not just to maintain BOATS, but Bridleways and Footpaths as well.

Clive

 

[sparkes]

Well I'm not B to E but if A is someone who cares about the environment I am one of those Steve although I'm not the latter part of A. For example I believe people have the right to choose a 4x4 to tow with if they feel happier that way. A 4x4 serves a purpose. In my heart of hearts though I can't find it in myself to agree to them being big boys toys. In that I mean ripping the countryside up for no purpose whatsoever. I honestly didn't know what Greenlaning was so I did ask but guessed by the silence/non informative replies it was a taboo subject ;O) I have just looked at some greenlaning sites to inform myself and they do themselves no favours by posting pics on there showing the damage they cause. A lot of those upland sites are peat which will not repair themselves. The ruts and deep holes left behind damage the peat which will not recover for 1000s of years. Oh well, who cares, we are only on this planet for a short time, enjoy yourself today, b*gger tomorrow. :O( Jeeeezzzz now you started me off on my soapbox.

LB

Sorry, A is a little miss leading. What I meant to say was not against environmentalists, more against people who claim environmental concerns but then use these to target a particular group and not the problem as a whole.

Most serious off roaders would never intentionally damage the peat area's you mentioned. Most of us believe in the conservation of our country side and rights of way. Unfortunately, like many groups we have people who do not care in the same way.

What seems to be happening is that 4x4 owners are being targeted for the actions of a few. Do we propose to ban all caravans because a few owners decide to use them to live in on other peoples land without permission? Do we close the house of lords because some of the people use it as a place to sleep?

Anyway, we are spiraling into the 4x4 debate in the wrong place

Steve

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

LB

Sorry, A is a little miss leading. What I meant to say was not against environmentalists, more against people who claim environmental concerns but then use these to target a particular group and not the problem as a whole.

Most serious off roaders would never intentionally damage the peat area's you mentioned. Most of us believe in the conservation of our country side and rights of way. Unfortunately, like many groups we have people who do not care in the same way.

What seems to be happening is that 4x4 owners are being targeted for the actions of a few. Do we propose to ban all caravans because a few owners decide to use them to live in on other peoples land without permission? Do we close the house of lords because some of the people use it as a place to sleep?

Anyway, we are spiraling into the 4x4 debate in the wrong place

Steve

Heyyyyy leave the House of Lords out of it - that's my doss hole after a night up in Soho.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

On the Indian sub-continent at the foothills of the Himalayas they have felled all the trees. Those trees acted like a giant sponge and their roots bound the soil together. Now they have all gone the monsoons has washed all the topsoil into the rivers diverting their flow and clogging up the deltas stopping the monsoon rains flowing back to the sea. Each year when the monsoons come the land now floods causing 1000s of deaths. The point of my lesson today is theres plenty of room in the Himalayan foothills for off roading, the damage is irrepairably done. heheheh! Here endeth todays lesson lmaaooooo.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Craig,

Taking your response of 15 Nov 2005 00:24 AM in order:

There has been a debate about towing at well below the applicable speed limit (on motorways) elsewhere. I accept that drivers can legally choose to proceed at any speed below the limit, But I like many find it can be very frustrating when there are no opportunities to pass safely. Where there is no safe passing lane, drivers should attempt to make good progress and minimise the potential for hold ups.

Modern cars are given a max train mass, which should allow them to make good progress, so if a vehicle is incapable of doing so then it is possible that it mighty be over-loaded and consequently potentially illegal.

A well matched outfit does not prevent a driver of choosing to drive inconsiderately or even dangerously.

If an outfit may be fully controllable at 39mph, but for whatever reason becomes uncontrollable at 40+ mph, Question? is it good or a bad outfit, Answer that depends on the towing speed. Now if the outfit is kept below the critical speed there should not be a problem and the journey can be completed safely, If the speed is allowed to creep above critical, and an incident occurs then for those conditions its a bad match, and the driver is responsible for driving TOO FAST.

Unless a minimum speed limit is in force, then an outfit must be towed within its capabilities of being fully controlled even if it means slowly.

For clarity it must be realised that this is not unique to caravans but must apply to all trailers. I would venture to suggest if an outfit were to known to uncontrollable at below 50 mph, then appropriate "Slow Vehicle Max Speed XX" markings should be attached to warn other road users.

 

[CliveV]

On the Indian sub-continent at the foothills of the Himalayas they have felled all the trees. Those trees acted like a giant sponge and their roots bound the soil together. Now they have all gone the monsoons has washed all the topsoil into the rivers diverting their flow and clogging up the deltas stopping the monsoon rains flowing back to the sea. Each year when the monsoons come the land now floods causing 1000s of deaths. The point of my lesson today is theres plenty of room in the Himalayan foothills for off roading, the damage is irrepairably done. heheheh! Here endeth todays lesson lmaaooooo.

Can not speak for what goes on in other countries - apart from Spain that is, where in the Picos De Europa they have "jeep trails" that are marked on the maps and you can drive them if you wish. Having done this and been greeted by all - walkers - horse riders - cyclists -in a most friendly manner we contrast very poorly with the NIMBY attitude of some.

But I would say that in one area of natural habitation where off-roading of the most extreme kind takes place - the wildlife is thriving and is not affected by the vehicles at all.

This area is Salisbury Plain and ecological studies have proved that the Tanks, Lorries and 4x4's of the Armed Forces, as well as those of us who are allowed limited access, that use the area extensively have not caused the doom and gloom problems predicted by the anti's.

Precisely the opposite in fact.