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Jun 20, 2005
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Nice one Rod one!

I bought my 4x4 to tow my caravan, no other reason. If I could get a smaller car to do the job I would.

My choice so I really don't know why all the excitement.I happily pay for the use without complaint.

As Rod says all vehicles have a use somewhere.

You don't hear about ban the mini.LOL.

I hope this doesn't move onto all those Green carbon do gooders. Not here please, I'm a caravanner.

Cheers

Dustydog
 
Oct 29, 2007
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Well,

If we were all to comply with the "environmental" argument, then we'd all be driving Diesel Smart for2's & hiring the odd 4X4 or sports car as & when we needed them.

But its not quite that simple, its all about "perception" my last company car, an Audi A6 2.7TDi barely made it to 36mpg no matter how frugally I drove it, But my Sorento regulary tops 38mpg, but the A6 is perceived to be more environmentaly friendly!!!

Plus we have freedom of choice! I chose the Sorento because I liked it, it suited my purpose & I could! & after 26,000 miles in a years use.....you'd have to use Semtex to seperate me from my 4X4! yeah sure, most of the time its in rear wheel drive (4X2) but when 4X4 is needed, as with all 4X4's its in a league of its own, & I for one wouldn't be without it!
 
Dec 3, 2009
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Aren't we all on the same side? Whatever car we chose to drive is entirely our choice - and yes, I do have a 4x4 (A Sportage and proud to say I drive a 4x4). I swapped a brand new diesel hatchback for my 4x4 when I bought my caravan earlier this year - I had considered buying a cheap 'towcar' but then weighed up the extra insurance, road tax and the fact that a small diesel was, on many occasions, not big enough - I have a large dog and play a large musical instrument, both of which I was unable to fit into the boot. My dog is far safer in the tailgate than in the back seat where he used to have to sit and my valuable instrument is not in danger of falling off the seat and becoming damaged if I have to suddenly hit the brakes.

I know that I have a large car, but to be honest, should we have bad weather (and we did 4 days after I bought the car), I know that I stand a better chance in my 4x4 than a very light hatchback and, most of all, I have a safe and reliable towcar in which to tow my caravan - I am considerably under my weight limit when fully loaded and know that I can happily climb 1:8 hills in 6th gear (as I did in Cornwall earlier this year).

I pay more road tax and more fuel duty as I don't get anywhere near the mpg that I did with my previous car, but if that is my choice, then I don't see why anyone should have the illmanners to criticise me - I pay the bills, it's my money!

Last time I read up, I thought we lived in a democracy!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Aren't we all on the same side? Whatever car we chose to drive is entirely our choice - and yes, I do have a 4x4 (A Sportage and proud to say I drive a 4x4). I swapped a brand new diesel hatchback for my 4x4 when I bought my caravan earlier this year - I had considered buying a cheap 'towcar' but then weighed up the extra insurance, road tax and the fact that a small diesel was, on many occasions, not big enough - I have a large dog and play a large musical instrument, both of which I was unable to fit into the boot. My dog is far safer in the tailgate than in the back seat where he used to have to sit and my valuable instrument is not in danger of falling off the seat and becoming damaged if I have to suddenly hit the brakes.

I know that I have a large car, but to be honest, should we have bad weather (and we did 4 days after I bought the car), I know that I stand a better chance in my 4x4 than a very light hatchback and, most of all, I have a safe and reliable towcar in which to tow my caravan - I am considerably under my weight limit when fully loaded and know that I can happily climb 1:8 hills in 6th gear (as I did in Cornwall earlier this year).

I pay more road tax and more fuel duty as I don't get anywhere near the mpg that I did with my previous car, but if that is my choice, then I don't see why anyone should have the illmanners to criticise me - I pay the bills, it's my money!

Last time I read up, I thought we lived in a democracy!
Agree with you, Karina. If you're willing to put up with the extra cost to be able to enjoy the benefits of a 4x4, fair enough, but the original post suggested that their running costs for 4x4's should be reduced on account of their track record during the recent snows.
 

Parksy

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Nov 12, 2009
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I have to admire Frank's persistence in foisting yet more of his political views onto this forum, it will no doubt amuse his dwindling bunch of cronies elsewhere. Politics aside no matter who is elected in 2010 no government will reduce the cost of owning and running 4x4s because we've allowed the press and media to build up a head of steam which makes it ok to single out owners of 4x4s for extra taxes, parking levies, congestion charges and anything else that the tree huggers can pin on 4x4 owners.

Mine tows my caravan and the fact is that when I'm using my caravan I use far less resources than the same number of people staying in a hotel which more than makes up for whatever extra greenhouse gas I emit whilst towing my caravan to my destination.

Quite honestly I don't give a monkeys what my carbon footprint is supposed to be because I choose and pay for my car. I've never been confronted by a tree hugger complaining about my choice of car, I'm not convinced that so called global warming is entirely caused by mans activities and when the eco loonies stop jetting round the world, government ministers travel by moped and the Yanks are made to buy cars that do 80mpg I might, just, start to consider buying something else
 
Oct 30, 2009
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LB wrote "Speak for yourself sweetie :O)

One thing ANY car hasn't done for me in my whole life is turn me on ;O)

1. I do all the time thats what some don't like :O)

2. in that case bud youv'e never had a proper gut wrenching adrenaline provoking motorcar that you would pay any price for just so you could drive it. make love to it what?? just like the martini ad anyplace, anywhere, anytime,:O)

frank as usual slides his political slant in somewhere without stating the obvious, and that is big cars have allways been more expensive to own and run I should know I have had my fair share of them. even when petrol was below
 
G

Guest

"However, 4x4's undeniably burden the environment, and their use should therefore not be encouraged"

Lutz talking out of his a___ again :0)

A list of 15 eagerly anticipated exciting cars for 2010 was out today

New Bentley Mulsanne

Alfa Giulietta

Aston Martin One-77

Audi A8

BMW 5 Series

DS3 Citroen

Ferrari 458

Jaguar XJ

Lexus LFA

Gullwing MB SLS AMG

Nissan Leaf

Peugeot RCZ

911 GT3 RS

Rolls Royce Ghost

Volvo S60

So how eco friendly are most of those compared to nasty 4x4? And most of them are very practical I'm sure ;)

I doubt that the price tags will be bargain basement or subsidised!

How many come from German manufacturers?

We could argue that you should have your right foot cut off for breaking a speed limit or face the death penalty for double parking. You can argue what ever you want.

No car manufacturer sells cars to make a loss. Car and motoring purchases fund our states and provide millions of jobs. The price of a car and its normal running cost is enough for anyone to pay.

Germany's Mercedes Benz are paying Herr Schumacher Millions to pilot their new F1 Car in 2010 and beyond. All the green spin and made up data doesn't actually fit well with what manufacturers, industry and government actually do!

If Germany and Germans were serious about being Green, there would be no place for half the cars produced by German manufacturers and the likes of AMG, Brabus, M Sport, Alpina, BB and others would have been closed a decade or more ago.

Drive what suits you and fight any extra charges for motoring.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Euro, I suggest you read my posts before replying. Nothing wrong with any of the above cars that you have mentioned. My point all along is if people want to drive them, then they should be made to pay for it. My statement that true 4x4's are not exactly eco-friendly is not meant to suggest that they are the only culprits. The sooner we get the message that the cost of private motoring is inevitably going to increase disproportionately compared to the cost of living, the better.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Just a thought, with all the chat about 4x4 vehicles, tax and pollution - what caused the end of the last ice age? The world wasn't heavily populated, there were no planes or cars and certainly no politicans proclaiming we are all doomed, so how come the earth heated up and got rid of all that ice? Seems to me the earth heats up and cools naturally over thousands of years and the politians are jumping on the bandwagon all over the world using it to raise tax because they can't run the economy in the first place - earth has its own thermostat - we mortals don't have the control switch! The ice caps have come and gone and we can't do a thing about it, its part of earth's cycle. Sadly, we are being taxed for evolution. When politians can explain why the earth heated up last time or the time even before that then maybe, just maybe, they will have reason to justify why they think mankind can control the planets! Until then, enjoy whatever you drive, enjoy your caravanning days and have fun - life is not a dress rehersal - you don't get a second crack at it!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Lorraine, during the last Ice Age there were few people living on this planet. There weren't the millions living just inches above sea level as there are tody.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Yep Lutz, thats what I said, no cars, planes etc but what got rid of the ice? Earth heated up anyway, irrespective of how many people there were or how many feet they were above sea level, we seem to be living at the end of a warm wet cycle, the sea levels rose before and slowly the next ice age started because the sea was diluted and salt levels reduced, it wasn't because people drove around in cars. Just because the world is now heavily populated it won't stop the earth's natural cycle over thousands of years.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I forgot to mention that during the Ice Age people lived in huts or caves and could easily move somewhere else as the climate changed without disturbing anyone. Today, there's nowhere suitable for the millions to move to without intruding on property already taken by someone else.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Yes, they did live a simple life in caves etc but however they lived, they did not particularly cause the ice age with their simple lifestyle, as the ice spread they possibly did up-sticks and move further away from it, the same would apply when the ice retreated, the point I am making is that the earth's temperature used to rise and fall regardless of who, what or how many living things were on the planet or what they did - which is what is happening again. Yes, it is terrifying to face the stark reality of what mankind is actually facing in the future, with sea levels rising, crops failing, increasing population, but I just don't see how politians can use our fears and take advantage by raising taxes, if every person on the planet had stopped driving their cars, flying in planes and having their cental heating on 50 years ago it wouldn't change a thing, the earth will still heat up and cool down, sea levels have always changed and caused changes in land mass and shape, I just wish mankind would accept we can't control everything in this digital age, the earth is too powerful for even man to control, yes, by destroying our natural environment like cutting down the rainforest we are spoiling the habitat for certain species and more and more animals are becomming extinct because we have moved into their space, but the earth's thermostat is not ours to control.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I just cannot believe that people will just stand by idly and accept that there is nothing that they can do as they watch their farmland dry up or the sea level threatening their cities. They will move on and take over safer land, whether there are people already living there or not. Governments have realised that taxes and economic pressure are a very useful tool, and maybe their only tool in a democracy, to such control developments and prevent a much bigger catastrophe at a later date.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Just as one example, the Iraq War would never have taken place but for the US's interest in their oil resources. Toppling Sadam Hussein was just an excuse to enter the country. He was no threat to the rest of the world other than perhaps to his immediate neighbours.

We can expect more wars to be fought over natural resources, whether they be oil, gas or water, maybe even farmland, in the future.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I am not a particularly religious person, but perhaps is this where the story "Noahs Ark" comes from? Sea levels, heavy rain, its starting to sound familiar now.

All governments feel the need to be "seen" to be doing something, perhaps extra taxes will help to relocate people, I just wish they would be more honest about it, we have many years before things get really bad, but people are moving away from their poor countries and already trying to resettle in the EU, where food is already short we are seeing mass immigration, people don't just sit there and starve like they used to, they know with better communication nowadays that there are places on earth where there is food, and like your cavemen Lutz, they are already moving. It makes our daily lives driving around in whatever vehicle we need pan into insignificance if you dare to look at the bigger picture.

If we bury our heads in the sand, then we know there are enough resources for our lifetime and hopefully our children. I have two new grandsons, and I do fear for them although I do believe there will be alternative resources. For example, we do not use the rising sea to our advantage, with desalination plants they could irrigate the dry desert areas to grow crops. We have not researched the use of wave and tidal power, the UK has the possibility of free power just by harnessing wave power but it doesn't choose to. The public are against nuclear power stations, they don't like tall ugly wind turbines, but wave power would be hidden under the sea.

Yes, we will all probably have to have electric cars in the future, but the batteries to run the cars are an ecological nightmare. Man will adjust to the changing earth, he has managed to so far, we have to work with it, and it would be very helpful if the population could be better controlled, perhaps it would be better if government didn't encourage large families to help ease the burden on earth, but the climate will carry on regardless of what we do, we just need to acknowledge that we must work with changes and try to use them to our advantage, we can't stop or alter the earth's natural thermostat, but it is very wrong that governments raise taxes in such a dishonest way, it sets man against man arguing about whose car is more environmentally friendly when in actual fact it just doesn't make the slightest difference - only to the owners pocket - the ice is going to melt anyway, whether we are here or not, any taxes raised should be used to start planning for new food production in areas where it is too dry etc, homes should be planned that possibly float! Anything would be better than governments just creaming off our money and using it to bailout banks etc!
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Whether there is global warming created by humankind or whether it's natural none of us know. I'm in the camp that believe that the amount of pollution poured into the atmostphere cannot be doing the planet any good.

It's been proven that sea levels are rising and the doomsayers have shown maps of what the UK will look like and how much land will be lost to flooding and coastal erosion. What is the answer? I don't know but what I do know is that the governments attempt to cure this manifestation isn't to tax large cars and allow mass immigration on an unprecendented scale if the UK land mass is getting smaller. OK I accept that they have put measures in progress to stop this immigration but it's too late, the horse has bolted and it's only a pretence on the governments part to sound as if they are proactive because they know that now they have signed over to the EU it is the EU who will tell us how many immigrants we must take.

Yes, Lutz is right. This will lead to wars, not just over the dwindling natural resources like oil but civil wars over what land is left available for human habitation.

The only benefit I can see from rising sea levels is that we will be further away from mainland Europe and the tunnel will be, by then, flooded :O) See, not all is doom and gloom .. heh! heh! heh!

⇦ Windy now sings ...

" Some things in life are bad

They can really make you mad

Other things just make you swear and curse.

When you're chewing on life's gristle

Don't grumble, give a whistle

And this'll help things turn out for the best...

And...always look on the bright side of life...

Always look on the light side of life "...
 
May 25, 2008
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Parksy

"09:51 PM I have to admire Frank's persistence in foisting yet more of his political views onto this forum, it will no doubt amuse his dwindling bunch of cronies elsewhere.

Excuse me quote Gordon Brown I am going to increase the tax on "Chelsea Tractors" Now if that wasn't a political statement I don't know what was.

Second the Increase in Tax on Fuel and Vehicles is Political what did you think it was for, to save the planet??

Steve please try not to interfere and post your views and your opinion of myself under the banner of Moderator when you are actually a Contributor.
 
May 25, 2008
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Lutz your quote of apples with apples dosen't make sense. Pollutants are measured CO2 g/km It makes no difference what car you drive the measurement is volume per km travelled. I agree equal mileage the Polo is much better than a Toyota 4x4, but the way our Tax system is slanted does not equate with fairness. Now if we were to follow the European model everyone would pay for the pollution that THEY have created. That was my issue.

In this country Road Tax ( revenue raising )has been turned into an environmental issue when really it shouldn't have been. So you have a section of the population branded as polluters when clearly a lot of them are not.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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The vehicle and fuel tax system over here in Germany is not THAT different to the UK. We pay vehicle tax staggered by emissions class AND engine size. Fuel tax is a little lower than in the UK.

Abolishing vehicle tax and putting it the same amount on the cost of petrol/diesel has been suggested a number of times by various governments, but has always been rejected. The reason given was always that it would put an unreasonable financial strain on people who live far away from their place of work and therefore clock up a high mileage just to get there.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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HI

i tow my van with a 1998 2.0td toyota that blows 4x4s of going up big hills but if 4x4 owners want to pay the price of having them then so be it (ps ive had 5 land rovers & 3 rangerovers v8s) so got nowt against 4x4s every one to there own
 

Parksy

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Nov 12, 2009
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Gumbo wrote;

'Steve please try not to interfere and post your views and your opinion of myself under the banner of Moderator when you are actually a Contributor.'

Relax Frank, I was just taking the mickey out of you.

My forum identity consists of my name with the moderator tag added, unlike some I don't change or vary my identity and when I'm taking part in a topic where banned members are also giving their opinion I'm always a moderator and will interfere whenever I see fit to do so.
 

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