I'm not saying that there will be an apocalyptic event. What I am saying is there is a good chance of it happening and by the time one has established beyond doubt whether this possibility becomes a certainty or not, it will be too late to turn the rudder round. Therefore, for the sake of the doubt, I'd like to see something done now. Doing something is going to cost money, but not doing anything could cost lives, even if it's only wars as nations battle for control of what's left over.
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4 X 4's popular again!
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Based on what? Where are you drawing your conclusions from - the warmists?
John is absolutely right. We should all be trying to conserve resources and minimise pollution generally. My principal point though is that the billions and billions of pounds either already spent or earmarked to fight AGW should be allocated to far better (and known) problems - including environmental ones.
Personally, I doubt very much that man is having a significant impact on world temperatures. Indeed, even the present strategy is broadly recognised to have only a 'delaying affect' of around six or seven years.
I would like to see the money used on alleviating poverty across the world and better education for the people of developing world. In this way, the very real problems of terrorism and other wars might have some more tangible benefit than 'smoke and mirrors' of climate change.
John is absolutely right. We should all be trying to conserve resources and minimise pollution generally. My principal point though is that the billions and billions of pounds either already spent or earmarked to fight AGW should be allocated to far better (and known) problems - including environmental ones.
Personally, I doubt very much that man is having a significant impact on world temperatures. Indeed, even the present strategy is broadly recognised to have only a 'delaying affect' of around six or seven years.
I would like to see the money used on alleviating poverty across the world and better education for the people of developing world. In this way, the very real problems of terrorism and other wars might have some more tangible benefit than 'smoke and mirrors' of climate change.
Lutz
Thank you for a good mannered debate. I think we do agree on the basic premise of 'good stewardship' of the planet, but are probably poles apart on the AGW issue. I am not saying that you are wrong or that I am right.
All I will say, is please take the time to look at the following link to 'U Tube'. It is a 10 minute interview of a Norwegian member of Greenpeace by Lord Monkton and is very revealing.
It is a moderate and very well mannered interview but highlights the problem many of us have in convincing others that the theory of climate change still has to be questioned.
I actually feel sorry for the lady involved. She is without doubt well intentioned - but as the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"!
Thank you for a good mannered debate. I think we do agree on the basic premise of 'good stewardship' of the planet, but are probably poles apart on the AGW issue. I am not saying that you are wrong or that I am right.
All I will say, is please take the time to look at the following link to 'U Tube'. It is a 10 minute interview of a Norwegian member of Greenpeace by Lord Monkton and is very revealing.
It is a moderate and very well mannered interview but highlights the problem many of us have in convincing others that the theory of climate change still has to be questioned.
I actually feel sorry for the lady involved. She is without doubt well intentioned - but as the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"!
Sorry - I omitted the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuj_tlRRQdQ
I would urge everyone who is interested to watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuj_tlRRQdQ
I would urge everyone who is interested to watch it.
the ice caps have been melting for the last 10000 years ,they used to extend down to northern france ,then they receded back to southern Britain the ice was a mile thick , the English chanell and the north sea were dry land ,in fact the river Thames was a tributary of the Rhine ,our Celtic ancestors walked across from France ,as the Glaciers melted the area which is now the north sea started to fill until it broke over the straits of Dover and Calaise and turning us into an island ,any one who saw the time team special sinking Britain ,they showed you all the bones dredged from the north sea by Dutch trawlers ,some of the bones were from Rhino showing a much warmer period , Tony Robinson done a series on tv about a month ago about mans origins ,and it showed there of ice sheets going back and forth thousands of years before the last ice age ,as far as i am concerned that last climate change conference in Copenhagen was attended by a lot of hypocrites getting paid and having a free all expenses paid break at our expense
G
Guest
Off track again! What happened to 4x4 popularity?
According to Lutz
"However, what we are experiencing now is much faster than in the past, because natural causes are being amplified by man-made ones (to which degree is highly controversial). On top of that there are now millions of people on this planet living in low lying coastal or arid regions and it would impossible to relocate them all elsewhere"
That's still only guesswork about what man is responsible for.
Flame bait comment removed
Parksy (Moderator)
According to Lutz
"However, what we are experiencing now is much faster than in the past, because natural causes are being amplified by man-made ones (to which degree is highly controversial). On top of that there are now millions of people on this planet living in low lying coastal or arid regions and it would impossible to relocate them all elsewhere"
That's still only guesswork about what man is responsible for.
Flame bait comment removed
Parksy (Moderator)
as far as i am concerned that last climate change conference in Copenhagen was attended by a lot of hypocrites getting paid and having a free all expenses paid break at our expense .
Well said Joby!
Just imagine all the pollution from their aircraft , hotels etc.
Nature has a great ability to adapt to change . Maybe the most important thing is everyone world wide ensuring they plant new trees and plants to keep the correct CO2, Oxygen balance. Isn't that what we are talking about here; the chemical relationship betweeen good and bad?
Cheers
Dustydog
Well said Joby!
Just imagine all the pollution from their aircraft , hotels etc.
Nature has a great ability to adapt to change . Maybe the most important thing is everyone world wide ensuring they plant new trees and plants to keep the correct CO2, Oxygen balance. Isn't that what we are talking about here; the chemical relationship betweeen good and bad?
Cheers
Dustydog
Euro, you have a habit of replying to my posts either without reading them through completely or simply ignoring part of them. Of course it's only guesswork. I never said that I was sure. If I've guessed wrongly, so much the better, if I've guessed rightly I want to do something now before we know for sure. It much like saying that it might rain tomorrow or on the other hand it might not, but as there's a good chance that it won't, I shan't bother to take an umbrella. I'd prefer to take an umbrella in any case, on the chance that I might not be able to get one later if I do need it.
Dusty
Not really. What we are talking about is a situation whereby kids are being taught in school that we are beggaring up the planet as a fact.
You and I are paying more in our energy bills because it is assumed that we all agree we are heating the planet up. Same goes for the kind of car you want to drive.
'Greens' have their place. On some levels I might even be one - even I can see that pouring waste oil down the drain is a pretty bad thing.
The current slavish adherrance to 'climate change' though is something that (as you might have guessed) animates me!
Not really. What we are talking about is a situation whereby kids are being taught in school that we are beggaring up the planet as a fact.
You and I are paying more in our energy bills because it is assumed that we all agree we are heating the planet up. Same goes for the kind of car you want to drive.
'Greens' have their place. On some levels I might even be one - even I can see that pouring waste oil down the drain is a pretty bad thing.
The current slavish adherrance to 'climate change' though is something that (as you might have guessed) animates me!
G
Guest
Has the power gone to your head again Parksy?
Less people and lower birth rate such as the Chinese impose would work well. That's a fact!
If there are less resources to go around then less people would be better.
"flame bait" seems ok in the form of having "green" propoganda constantly rammed down our throats here. If following the "green" ways means they've had their sense of humour removed, then they might as well do like the Lemmings.
Less people and lower birth rate such as the Chinese impose would work well. That's a fact!
If there are less resources to go around then less people would be better.
"flame bait" seems ok in the form of having "green" propoganda constantly rammed down our throats here. If following the "green" ways means they've had their sense of humour removed, then they might as well do like the Lemmings.
Does the tv propaganda "Drive 5 miles less a week" get up your nose. Lets see, I will get my company to move the paper mill closer to my home. Or, get the local bus company that runs a fleet of old buses, with Northern Ireland number plates, to hide their true ages, to run from my home to my workplace. Somehow think thats a no go. We were promised better public transport, did we get it, is it affordable, does it go to where we want it to go to, at a time we want it to? No!! What is the reason, the government needs the multitude of motorists taxes to survive, there is not enough money in taxes coming in from us dwindling band of workers. We are being hoodwinked into accepting more money being levered from our wallets, under the guise of saving the planet.
Parksy
Moderator
Euro wrote:
'Has the power gone to your head again Parksy?
Less people and lower birth rate such as the Chinese impose would work well. That's a fact!
If there are less resources to go around then less people would be better.
"flame bait" seems ok in the form of having "green" propoganda constantly rammed down our throats here. If following the "green" ways means they've had their sense of humour removed, then they might as well do like the Lemmings.'
Euro
You are constantly posting comments and opinions onto this forum which appear to be intended to wind up forum members and cause argument and problems on this forum.
It's starting to wear a bit thin now, we have better things to do that to constantly monitor your forum activity so maybe it would be best for all concerned if you took yourself off to a lesser used forum where you can whinge about us and call us names as usual. Come back when you grow up.
You receive more leeway here than any other member and still you think that it's ok to challenge and provoke members and moderators of this forum.
Wind your neck in or you will find that your posts will be deleted rather than edited in future.
'Has the power gone to your head again Parksy?
Less people and lower birth rate such as the Chinese impose would work well. That's a fact!
If there are less resources to go around then less people would be better.
"flame bait" seems ok in the form of having "green" propoganda constantly rammed down our throats here. If following the "green" ways means they've had their sense of humour removed, then they might as well do like the Lemmings.'
Euro
You are constantly posting comments and opinions onto this forum which appear to be intended to wind up forum members and cause argument and problems on this forum.
It's starting to wear a bit thin now, we have better things to do that to constantly monitor your forum activity so maybe it would be best for all concerned if you took yourself off to a lesser used forum where you can whinge about us and call us names as usual. Come back when you grow up.
You receive more leeway here than any other member and still you think that it's ok to challenge and provoke members and moderators of this forum.
Wind your neck in or you will find that your posts will be deleted rather than edited in future.
Time has long passed since many scientists and boffins were employed by the state and worked mainly for the glory and good of mankind rather than a fat pay cheque from the private sector.
Science is a big business these days and if your findings can turn a good profit the private sector will pay well.
In our business my husband and I know as fact that major multi national companies set up other companies through secondary companies just so they can look green and partly hide what they get up to.
The 'green' game is complex and scientits and politicians earn big money from 'green'.
Goverment run manufacturing companies helped fill the UK's requirements in the past. Wind turbines and other supposed green technology now fund many private company directors and share holders pockets and the scientists.
Take away fat earnings pay packets and then you may convince us and others that the the green barmy army might have got something right about global warming.
Building off shore wind turbine farms that have to be maintained from the sea or air is 'green' and cost effective? Many think not, but there are good earnings to be had.
If big profit and green diverge may be we'll part with our established ways of life and car choices and take the bus.
Science is a big business these days and if your findings can turn a good profit the private sector will pay well.
In our business my husband and I know as fact that major multi national companies set up other companies through secondary companies just so they can look green and partly hide what they get up to.
The 'green' game is complex and scientits and politicians earn big money from 'green'.
Goverment run manufacturing companies helped fill the UK's requirements in the past. Wind turbines and other supposed green technology now fund many private company directors and share holders pockets and the scientists.
Take away fat earnings pay packets and then you may convince us and others that the the green barmy army might have got something right about global warming.
Building off shore wind turbine farms that have to be maintained from the sea or air is 'green' and cost effective? Many think not, but there are good earnings to be had.
If big profit and green diverge may be we'll part with our established ways of life and car choices and take the bus.
No doubt my dearest brother inlaw will make his own comment Parksy.
Much as we all love you and the other moderators, you in particular do not help at times. SORRY.
We get fed up with far to many posts with "eco" brought up, what Lutz thinks about tax's and how things are done there is of little use to us in the UK.
If you want it simple Parksy, stop the "eco" comments and keep the forum to caravanning and the lighter side of life.
If we want to drive 4x4 or auto rather than manual, we don't need Lutz or anyone else on about saving 2mpg or making resources go further.
If they want to debate that why not join a green forum and plenty of motoring web sites and car forums will tell about MPG running costs and car tax brackets.
Lutz says that the ice cap in the North Pole is receding. The ice cap thickness at the North Pole is relatively thin at some 3 metres thick, and has been so for pretty well as long as records have been kept. This is borne out by the USA and the old USSR when they used to punch their nuclear subs through it. I think that you will also find that there are some regions around the North Pole where the ice depth is increasing. Nothing to do with my original post about 4 x 4's.... but you brought it up!
would it no be easier to lock this thread up ?.
Parksy
Moderator
Unfortunately the software used by this forum doesn't support the locking of topics. The original thread has gone way off topic now and it is starting to repeat the same arguments.
Nothing said on this forum will change the situation by one iota, drivers will choose whichever vehicle suits them best and the snow here will melt and we can all go off in our caravans once again.
Roll on spring!
Nothing said on this forum will change the situation by one iota, drivers will choose whichever vehicle suits them best and the snow here will melt and we can all go off in our caravans once again.
Roll on spring!
Highlander.
You see our Parksy just isn't in to bondage ;-)
You see our Parksy just isn't in to bondage ;-)
I really cannot accept that 'population control' as per the Chinese model will actually work - this is really 'social engineering' of the worst kind.
I have spent some time in China, as well as other parts of South and South East Asia. EDUCATION is the answer. For example, in Pakistan the official literacy rate is well below 50% and that does not account for how the term 'literacy' is defined.
Without 'education' people will never be able to question what happens to them and why. Nor will people be able to challenge 'official edicts' which shape public policy in their name - they will just have to accept the outcomes.
Education is also the answer here too. Not least the seemingly unquestionable acceptance of 'scientific' dogma by many people - including it seems by some forum members here.
If you really feel that 'The Green Agenda' is being rammed down your throat then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT - write to your MP (don't laugh!) and simply ask them to consider the inescapable fact that the whole climate change debate is currently one sided, and bereft of any form of 'alternative view'
I guess we are all really in the same boat here. Not too many climate scientists or politicians amongst us. But for goodness sake, we ultimately put these people in power - Challenge them!
I have spent some time in China, as well as other parts of South and South East Asia. EDUCATION is the answer. For example, in Pakistan the official literacy rate is well below 50% and that does not account for how the term 'literacy' is defined.
Without 'education' people will never be able to question what happens to them and why. Nor will people be able to challenge 'official edicts' which shape public policy in their name - they will just have to accept the outcomes.
Education is also the answer here too. Not least the seemingly unquestionable acceptance of 'scientific' dogma by many people - including it seems by some forum members here.
If you really feel that 'The Green Agenda' is being rammed down your throat then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT - write to your MP (don't laugh!) and simply ask them to consider the inescapable fact that the whole climate change debate is currently one sided, and bereft of any form of 'alternative view'
I guess we are all really in the same boat here. Not too many climate scientists or politicians amongst us. But for goodness sake, we ultimately put these people in power - Challenge them!
sadie, i dont see parksy or any other forum member in any way other than being fellow members who can contribute and give advice/suggestions to others re their queeries, after all thats the giest of a forum. however, i only suggested locking this garbage down because it has outgrown the meaning of the original posters question and turned into a slagging field for some.
i joined this forum through reading posts as a visitor and i was impressed with what i could see was a wealth of info for someone like me who has just joined the ranks to glean valuable information, and also have a wee bit of a laugh and good banter in the appropriate sections. so far it has lived up to my expectations and i enjoy reading and at times replying to others posts. we all come in here on our own accord for whatever the reasons, but i am beginnig to think some use it as an e-tool to vent their frustrations, thats the type i aint got the time for and can see them far enough.
this guy posts asking about 4x4s and look where its led, incredible, and it could give good reason for other visitors giving the forum a wide berth.
if some folks want to get things off their chest and vent some anger, then surely there are other sites suited for this that they could join and let ones like this trundle along as it should. simple as easy peasy.
i joined this forum through reading posts as a visitor and i was impressed with what i could see was a wealth of info for someone like me who has just joined the ranks to glean valuable information, and also have a wee bit of a laugh and good banter in the appropriate sections. so far it has lived up to my expectations and i enjoy reading and at times replying to others posts. we all come in here on our own accord for whatever the reasons, but i am beginnig to think some use it as an e-tool to vent their frustrations, thats the type i aint got the time for and can see them far enough.
this guy posts asking about 4x4s and look where its led, incredible, and it could give good reason for other visitors giving the forum a wide berth.
if some folks want to get things off their chest and vent some anger, then surely there are other sites suited for this that they could join and let ones like this trundle along as it should. simple as easy peasy.
Highlander
You are absolutely right my friend. I have been 'wound up' like a clockwork toy! Unfortunately, not for the first time.
You are absolutely right my friend. I have been 'wound up' like a clockwork toy! Unfortunately, not for the first time.
I have always thought it must be difficult setting yourself up as a judge and inflicting your views on others that choose to disagree with your train of thought.
Take myself as an example..
When I am riding my bicycle, I am a fit, energetic, planet loving kind of a guy that any greeny would be proud of.
When I am driving my 1987 VW polo 1000cc, I am an old git that other drivers will do anything to get in front of.
When I drive my 4x4, I am a rich plonker intent on destroying the planet.
When I drive my 4x4 and tow my caravan, I am an escaped loony that cannot afford hotels.
The truth is I'm just ME ....surrounded by other people's prejudices and ideas.
I believe the Earth is flat and that the other side has not been exploited yet.
It is much cooler there .....so if it gets too hot we can all go there!
I would not dream of inflicting these views on anyone else or getting abusive in the process ;-)
Take myself as an example..
When I am riding my bicycle, I am a fit, energetic, planet loving kind of a guy that any greeny would be proud of.
When I am driving my 1987 VW polo 1000cc, I am an old git that other drivers will do anything to get in front of.
When I drive my 4x4, I am a rich plonker intent on destroying the planet.
When I drive my 4x4 and tow my caravan, I am an escaped loony that cannot afford hotels.
The truth is I'm just ME ....surrounded by other people's prejudices and ideas.
I believe the Earth is flat and that the other side has not been exploited yet.
It is much cooler there .....so if it gets too hot we can all go there!
I would not dream of inflicting these views on anyone else or getting abusive in the process ;-)
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