I wanted a big vehicle for towing and chose a Jaguar as opposed to a "4x4", "Chelsea Tractor" or whatever you chose to call them.
Now my car is great until you want to park it. The parking bays are just not wide enough nor long enough. It's a thirsty beast at the best of times and don't try driving through the streets of London, I tried ONCE!
I get charged the max they can squeeze out of me for road tax and insurance and I don't even have 4WD in this snowy weather.
So my view is if it's big it don't matter what shape or size it is IT's BIG" - Your choice!
Now my car is great until you want to park it. The parking bays are just not wide enough nor long enough. It's a thirsty beast at the best of times and don't try driving through the streets of London, I tried ONCE!
I get charged the max they can squeeze out of me for road tax and insurance and I don't even have 4WD in this snowy weather.
So my view is if it's big it don't matter what shape or size it is IT's BIG" - Your choice!
That was my point all along, Reg. It's not the 4x4's that are being singled out, everything that's big.
A lot of people grateful for 4 wheel drive at the moment - and it looks like they will be for a little while yet!
REG, just about sums up my view on big cars in general I have personally nothing againt them in fact I have had a few in my time, although never having had a 4x4 (as I have never seen the need to have one) I can see why some do like them and buy one after another.
it is not the vehicle but some owners that ruffle the feathers from time to time with there attitude as can be seen by some of the posts above. yes they are usefull in snow and muddy fields and if the need to tow a 6+mtr caravan is required probably the only vehicle with enough weight to do the job, all this is understood but inevitably the cost of running such a vehicle will be higher so why complain about the cost or pretend you have one to help others. IMO its your choice just pay up and get on with it.
for some it seems to be just an easy answer to a percieved problem when with a little thought other answers could be found. here in yorkshire we have had 10in of snow since before chrsitmas (not all at once true) and temeratures never much above freezzing I have been out every day in my 1.9 2wd diesel without a problem probably due to the chunky snow and mud tyres I had put on in november, 45 years worth of driving experience probably helps as well but there you go. as for getting stuck on a muudy field never happend carefull selection of a pitch on arrival sorts that one out. the choice of size and weight of the caravan to tow is well? a personal choice no more than that.
everything else is to me a red herring.
it is not the vehicle but some owners that ruffle the feathers from time to time with there attitude as can be seen by some of the posts above. yes they are usefull in snow and muddy fields and if the need to tow a 6+mtr caravan is required probably the only vehicle with enough weight to do the job, all this is understood but inevitably the cost of running such a vehicle will be higher so why complain about the cost or pretend you have one to help others. IMO its your choice just pay up and get on with it.
for some it seems to be just an easy answer to a percieved problem when with a little thought other answers could be found. here in yorkshire we have had 10in of snow since before chrsitmas (not all at once true) and temeratures never much above freezzing I have been out every day in my 1.9 2wd diesel without a problem probably due to the chunky snow and mud tyres I had put on in november, 45 years worth of driving experience probably helps as well but there you go. as for getting stuck on a muudy field never happend carefull selection of a pitch on arrival sorts that one out. the choice of size and weight of the caravan to tow is well? a personal choice no more than that.
everything else is to me a red herring.
Father-in-law had the same 45years driving experience, from Ploughing with horses to 8 wheel tankers and 42 ton artics, told me the other day the safest car on the road under you in this weather has got to be 4x4 no amount of years driving experience can beat a vehicle that's designed for off road or on snow.
Disagree with you both Colin and Lutz
Disagree with you both Colin and Lutz
I have my 4X4 because I like it. I've had cars and I had 4X4 before they became popular with the "masses", and last year returned to the 4X4. I'm perhaps lucky because I can afford it owing to the fact that it's a second vehicle so don't do that many miles.
Therefore I don't feel that I have to justify it in any other way.
Therefore I don't feel that I have to justify it in any other way.
The point you have missed Lutz and keep missing is that we all know that the tax brackets put most 4x4 in the same bracket as big Jaguars and other Limo's.
What you and others are missing is how idiots single out the 4x4.
I've never had my BMW stickered and nor have I had idiots in the street trying to block my way in it, in my 4x4 I have.
Reg even comes out with the CS tag. If he had his Jaguar tagged as a Posho Nobhead Wagon regularly may be he would catch on that it can get a little wearing and silly.
What you and others are missing is how idiots single out the 4x4.
I've never had my BMW stickered and nor have I had idiots in the street trying to block my way in it, in my 4x4 I have.
Reg even comes out with the CS tag. If he had his Jaguar tagged as a Posho Nobhead Wagon regularly may be he would catch on that it can get a little wearing and silly.
The manufacturers of 4x4's know full well that taxes on big, heavy cars are higher than small, lighter ones. That applies not only to the UK but many other countries too. Let's hope that the complaints of their owners are heard and that the manufacturers are motivated towards building 4x4's in a lower tax bracket. There's no reason why a 4x4, by definition, should be significantly worse than its 2 wheel drive counterpart.
This is where you keep missing the point on 4x4 Lutz.
Even lighter smaller 4x4's attract the same trouble as Range Rovers.
A friends Terios had problems at her daughters school.
My BMW is less economic than my 4X4 and attracts none of the problems. If it was customised and fitted with a smaller BMW eco diesel engine and had chunky wheels, raised suspension and had an X badge fitted the nutty greens would wage war on it.
In London we see 'wags' and celeb types in Ferrari's and Aston's etc or limo's, but idiots green types will go mad at a 4x4.
Even lighter smaller 4x4's attract the same trouble as Range Rovers.
A friends Terios had problems at her daughters school.
My BMW is less economic than my 4X4 and attracts none of the problems. If it was customised and fitted with a smaller BMW eco diesel engine and had chunky wheels, raised suspension and had an X badge fitted the nutty greens would wage war on it.
In London we see 'wags' and celeb types in Ferrari's and Aston's etc or limo's, but idiots green types will go mad at a 4x4.
Yes, but you can't blame the taxman for what you are describing now. That's a completely different issue caused by unfounded generalisation ("a big V8 4x4 used to ferry the kids to school is bad for the environment, therefore all 4x4's are bad for the environment").
Hey Sadie not so much of the "Posho Nobhead" just "Nobhead" if you don't mind.
But seriously what's the CS Tag?
But seriously what's the CS Tag?
We refer to 'Chelsea Tractor' as the 'Chelsea S--t' label.
The taxmen are just idiots driven by incompetent politicians who use the green trend as an excuse to raise tax's. Rather than address waste caused by inefficiency and poor management by national and local government and the state run businesses.
Lutz you are the main person here who is blaming the tax system. The heckling about 4x4 has little to do with the tax's although they have been poorly thought out. The main issue is with the idiot unhinged greenie tree huggers and those who resent other choices and ability to spend on a larger car.
There is nothing wrong with taxing kiddies in a 6 litre V12 4x4, it is a benefit to the economy and is over taxed fuel wis in the UK so the owner mor than pays its way.
When politicians, governments and the elite and wealthy stop their waste then they can preach 'green' to the rest of us.
That will never happen in my life time or yours Lutz.
The taxmen are just idiots driven by incompetent politicians who use the green trend as an excuse to raise tax's. Rather than address waste caused by inefficiency and poor management by national and local government and the state run businesses.
Lutz you are the main person here who is blaming the tax system. The heckling about 4x4 has little to do with the tax's although they have been poorly thought out. The main issue is with the idiot unhinged greenie tree huggers and those who resent other choices and ability to spend on a larger car.
There is nothing wrong with taxing kiddies in a 6 litre V12 4x4, it is a benefit to the economy and is over taxed fuel wis in the UK so the owner mor than pays its way.
When politicians, governments and the elite and wealthy stop their waste then they can preach 'green' to the rest of us.
That will never happen in my life time or yours Lutz.
There are a lot better ways of benefitting the economy than wasting energy by taking kids to school in a 6 litre V12 4x4. If we are complaining about wastage caused by politicians und poorly-managed public sector, then it would be unfair to stop there. Any form of wastage is to be condemned.
Parksy
Moderator
What we tend to overlook here in the UK is the fact that the greens in Germany (Bundnis 90/Die Grunnen)have 51 elected members of the Bundestag so German citizens actually vote for M.P's who are committed to introducing more environmental policies.
Here in the UK the government has no mandate to raise taxes on environmental grounds which might account for some of the anger and bitterness which is sometimes evident when these issues are discussed on this forum.
Lutz and Shady Sadie's opinions are based on completely differing circumstances.
I have to say that the abuse of 4x4 drivers appears to be more prevalent in the south east of the UK.
Here in the Midlands no one gives 4x4s a second thought.
Here in the UK the government has no mandate to raise taxes on environmental grounds which might account for some of the anger and bitterness which is sometimes evident when these issues are discussed on this forum.
Lutz and Shady Sadie's opinions are based on completely differing circumstances.
I have to say that the abuse of 4x4 drivers appears to be more prevalent in the south east of the UK.
Here in the Midlands no one gives 4x4s a second thought.
Sadie I'm not opposed to them, just wouldn't have one myself. I've probably got the worst end of the taxation stick though.....
Petrol, V6 Big engine.....
Must admit I wouldn't mind 4x4 at the moment and diesel but I prefer the shape of a saloon vehicle.
Tell you what though if you want to witness some prejudice then drive around in a Porsche. Nearly every bleeding white van and a lot of small car drivers will want take you on and believe me I've witnessed a few who have really put themselves in danger.
My attitude has always been not to give a s**t as I will always drive what car I want to.
Petrol, V6 Big engine.....
Must admit I wouldn't mind 4x4 at the moment and diesel but I prefer the shape of a saloon vehicle.
Tell you what though if you want to witness some prejudice then drive around in a Porsche. Nearly every bleeding white van and a lot of small car drivers will want take you on and believe me I've witnessed a few who have really put themselves in danger.
My attitude has always been not to give a s**t as I will always drive what car I want to.
You may well be right there, Parksy, in that it is also a cultural issue. The greens in Germany are large enough for even the other established parties not to be able to ignore them, even if they are not part or the governing coalition.
My husband has a 1984 959 that I'm alloud to drive occasionally
and a 911 Carrera road legal race car. We've not had any problems with Porsche's.
"The greens in Germany are large enough for even the other established parties not to be able to ignore them" Another good reason to get out of the EU and stand alone.
and a 911 Carrera road legal race car. We've not had any problems with Porsche's."The greens in Germany are large enough for even the other established parties not to be able to ignore them" Another good reason to get out of the EU and stand alone.
Parksy
Moderator
The EU is a completely separate issue Sadie.
The Bundestag is the Federal Parliament of Germany in the same way that the house of commons is the seat of government in Britain.
Even if we were to leave the EU the government of the day no matter which of the main parties formed it would no doubt continue to disregard the wishes of the electorate in Britain.
In terms of environmental policies there is little to chose between the main political parties here no matter who will form the next government.
The point that I'm making is that for Lutz in Germany Bundnis 90/ Die Grunnen form a much more mainstream part of political opinion than the Green Party have ever achieved in this country.
Lutz's comments reinforce my view.
We are more or less forced to be green in the UK whether we like it or not whereas in Germany the electorate need to positively endorse green policies by electing members of Bundnis 90/Die Grunnen to the Bundestag.
The greens in Europe have to answer to political parties who hold opposing views, this doesn't seem to be the case in the UK.
The Bundestag is the Federal Parliament of Germany in the same way that the house of commons is the seat of government in Britain.
Even if we were to leave the EU the government of the day no matter which of the main parties formed it would no doubt continue to disregard the wishes of the electorate in Britain.
In terms of environmental policies there is little to chose between the main political parties here no matter who will form the next government.
The point that I'm making is that for Lutz in Germany Bundnis 90/ Die Grunnen form a much more mainstream part of political opinion than the Green Party have ever achieved in this country.
Lutz's comments reinforce my view.
We are more or less forced to be green in the UK whether we like it or not whereas in Germany the electorate need to positively endorse green policies by electing members of Bundnis 90/Die Grunnen to the Bundestag.
The greens in Europe have to answer to political parties who hold opposing views, this doesn't seem to be the case in the UK.
Exactly. In Germany it's not a question of whether green or not, but how green. On the one hand you've got those who want to close all power stations running on non-renewable energy plus all atomic power by tomorrow, if possible, and the others who want to take a more pragmatic approach and spread the time period over a couple of decades. Basically, however, you won't find anyone who wants to leave everything as it is.
Correct Dusty But we still stand by our position in regard to the Caravan Insurance.
I only have third party, fire and theft though on my Land Cruisers insurance. You just need to be careful.
The big issue for me is pollution of the sea, through the dumping of sewage.
If the greens sorted that out, then perhaps they would be taken more seriously.
This government just loves the minority groups, they are easily used as a means to increase tax, we regularly have the brain washing, followed by the tax increase to cure the problem.
For example, the brain washing, " britain has a binge drinking problem", pictures then shown of a few drunks to illustrate the point, then the calls to raise duty to "cure" the problem.
The tax increase justified by the "binge drinking culture".
The result, pubs do less business, the super market does more.
More over, it then becomes more economical to use DRUGS.
At the end of the day,all that happens is nothing really changes, other than WE pay more tax.
If the greens sorted that out, then perhaps they would be taken more seriously.
This government just loves the minority groups, they are easily used as a means to increase tax, we regularly have the brain washing, followed by the tax increase to cure the problem.
For example, the brain washing, " britain has a binge drinking problem", pictures then shown of a few drunks to illustrate the point, then the calls to raise duty to "cure" the problem.
The tax increase justified by the "binge drinking culture".
The result, pubs do less business, the super market does more.
More over, it then becomes more economical to use DRUGS.
At the end of the day,all that happens is nothing really changes, other than WE pay more tax.
Facebook
Twitter